Issue with the O'Kane method. Also: savegames

Hey guys, I hope you can help me with this.

Everytime I try out a 90° attack, every torpedo passes in front of the target. This happened at least 5 times now and I have no idea what I'm doing wrong.
I take the speed and course, set myself up in a nice 90° angle, calculate the lead angle and put the data into the TDC. Exactly like DepthToKeel does in .
(at about 9min)

Everything works out fine for him but for some reason my torpedoes are always to early at the planned impact point by about one ship lenght.
I've double checked everything: target speed, the TDC data (impact at 90°, gyro at 0°/360°), and so on, however I don't hit the target.

My second question is about savegames. Last time I tried this method I saved before I took the shot. After loading, the time was different and the target was nowhere to be found. Is this a common bug?

Modlist:

1_TriggerMaru_Overhaul_2-5
1_TMO_25_small_patch
RSRDC_TMO_V502
RSRDC_V5xx_Patch1
1.5_Optical Targeting Correction 031312 for RSRDCv502
1.5_OTC_Realistic Scopes for 16 to 9 RSRDCv502
Improved Stock Environment_v3_TMO&RFB

[propbeanie]

Rockin Robbins will be a better diagnoser of your 'failure to impact' issue, but have you watched his video on it, found in the Sub Skipper's Bag of Tricks thread?



As for your mods, is the Improved Stock Environments a later or earlier date than the patches? How about Realistic Scopes? And, of course, OTC. Just be sure you have them installed in the correct order, and that they're all compatible with each other. Also, corrupted saves are unfortunately a companion to all versions of SH. Several factors are at play there, and all aren't known... Another thing to check for on saving - don't get impatient with it like I've been before, and use TC to hurry things along, such as getting below the thermal, and forgetting to turn TC off while you go through the "Save" process, 'cause a lot of time can pass when you do that...

Edit: Just got to looking at RR's video, and I'm wondering if you're hitting the set buttons twice. Watch the dials as RR hits the buttons a 2nd time, and that might well be the difference. Notice at 9:25-40 especially...

I've made double sure that the mods are all of the correct version and compatible.
I'm also pressing the TDC buttons twice and as I said, the values are correct.
In his video RockinRobins isn't even that precise with his measurements but still hits the target without much issue.

Here's what I do:
1. Take the speed and course of the target. (Place one mark at the target and another one after 3min, the distance between the two points / 100 is his speed, i.e. 1000yards = 10kn)
2. I set myself up at a 90° angle to the target course at about 1000-1500yards.
3. I calculate the lead angle by drawing two lines in a right angle (one for his speed - 1000y and one for the torpedo speed - 3100y) and measuring the angle (or simply using this site). In this example it's 18°.
4. I set my periscope at 0° - lead angle (or + if target comes from the right)
5. In the TDC I set the speed, max out the range and set the AOB to 90° - (or +) lead angle. For the last two I make sure to click the send button two times.
6. The TDC now shows me an impact angle of 90° and a gyro angle of 360° straight ahead. I double check with my attack map and everything seems to be fine.
7. Still looking exactly at the lead angle, i wait till my target crosses the line and fire one torpedo at the first mast, the second at the stack.
8. I follow my torpedoes through the scope and see both passing peacefully infront of his bow...

So, as far as I can tell, steps 1-7 are exactly what DepthToKeel is doing and his torpedoes are going exactly where he aimed them.
First I thought my speed calculation is off, so I double checked that by taking another measurement. Nope, still 10kn.
Then I thought, maybe I messed up and installed the wrong OTC version (and that screws with where I see the target and where he really is / giving me a wrong angle or something), but thats also not the case.

Maybe I'm blind and miss some obvious mistake here but idk.

[Captain Dave]

I usually don't use torpedo speed in my calculation. If the ship is traveling at 9 knots or slower, I set my periscope to +/- 10* of my angle to the ship. If 10 knots or faster, then 15* lead. The AOB is set to angle of ship to my sub.

So, if ship is 90* to sub, periscope is set to 0 +/- 10*. AOB is set to 90*.

[Barkerov]

Originally Posted by dergrunty

5. In the TDC I set the speed

Thats the error you are making. If you leave the speed set to zero in the TDC you will hit the target.
The reason for this is that you are determining the lead andle for a ten knot target, when you set the speed in the TDC, it thinks its job is to calculate the lead angle as well. This is why you are always firing in front of the target.

Try the vector analysis method once you get sick of always having to set up 90 degree attacks. That method extends the dick okane method to non 90 degree scenarios. I use it now because it does the same thing as the okane method plus more.

be sure to post your next exploding target for us

[Gray Lensman]

Unrelated to your shoot issues:

To get the benefit of actually playing the TMO mod. Remove the RSRDC mod.

Why?

The RSRDC overlay actually changes TMO major game realism behavior beyond just the historical ship movements. You are NOT playing TMO when you load up RSRDC following it. You are playing a morphed version of RSRDC that has been touched up (so it doesn't crash when loading after TMO) to make you think you are playing TMO with only the historical ship movements changed.

Also, avoid saving during ship encounters AND definitely DO NOT save on top of another save. In other words do not do SAVE overwrites. I always do fresh saves and then go back into the Save menu and delete old unneeded saves. Note, you cannot delete saves from the Load menu screen.

[Gray Lensman]

Originally Posted by Barkerov

Thats the error you are making. If you leave the speed set to zero in the TDC you will hit the target.
The reason for this is that you are determining the lead andle for a ten knot target, when you set the speed in the TDC, it thinks its job is to calculate the lead angle as well. This is why you are always firing in front of the target.

Not necessarily... see below...

Try the vector analysis method once you get sick of always having to set up 90 degree attacks. That method extends the dick okane method to non 90 degree scenarios. I use it now because it does the same thing as the okane method plus more.

be sure to post your next exploding target for us

I always set the speed to target speed and achieve well over 95% hits (including duds that hit but don't explode), BUT...

you have to ensure that the target will indeed be at or slightly outside the predetermined TDC range setting (especially at higher target speeds). The reason for this is at such close range and higher target speeds the TDC lead angle will cause a bow shot (wire on front (bow) portion of target ship) to actually cross in front of the target instead of intercepting the bow. This intercept range is adjusted preferably by a small judicious forward/reverse ship movement, but can be done on the TDC, (necessitating double-click rechecking of the solution of course).

In a way this somewhat agrees with your reasoning about target speed setting but allows the TDC to still compensate for other small targeting errors such as the sub not being exactly 90 degrees perpendicular to target track

Another point... I never use SLOW speed torpedoes UNLESS i'm setting up a dual target solution and in reality I don't think that was really a historical technique anyhow. At least, I've never read of it being used in any of the books I've read.

[Rockin Robbins]

Here's a printable card summarizing the Dick O'Kane method. Torpedo speed, while part of vector analysis, is not part of the Dick O'Kane method. The theory of the Dick O'Kane method is to eliminate human error. A large source of human error is to make a solution based on the wrong torpedo speed. The TDC knows what torpedo you have loaded and what speed it will go based on the switches. Why would you want to manually track all that stuff. Just let the stupid machine do it!



As you can see I'm not even worried about whether the torpedo track angle is exactly 90º. Any shooting at gyro angles between +-20º is considered straight shooting anyway and you'll be well under +-5º if you just choose 10º for target speed under 15 knots and 20º for speeds over 15 knots.

I also never shoot from as far away as 1500 yards unless it's my first shot at an escorted convoy, when I'll shoot from 3,000. I'm looking for a range between 500 yards and 750 yards when I'm shooting one or two unescorted merchies. And NEVER USE SLOW SPEED! Your accuracy is directly proportional to your torpedo speed. Half as fast means half as accurate.

So Dick O'Kane uses the TDC to calculate the gyro angle. You choose a lead angle arbitrarily, based on a rule of thumb because it just isn't worth the bother to be precise. The TDC compensates anyway. People do stupid easy stuff. Machines do fussy precise stuff. The combination gives you hits.

In the video he didn't show everything he did. For instance you can't verify that he got the speed he claims by watching his actions. It's like he set up the attack and phoned in the procedure. Can't really learn how to shoot that way.

Missing astern is usually torpedo doors not opened or bad target speed determinaton.

Missing ahead is using fast torpedoes and doing a calculation for slow ones (using the TDC makes that error impossible) or bad target speed determination.

If you enter starboard AoB instead of a correct port AoB or versa visa you'll miss astern.

[Sniper297]

Unless I'm misreading this, the error is in adding two things together. One method is to guess the speed, use an angle-off. Example target moving left to right at 10 knots, lead angle about 12 degrees. Aim scope straight ahead, send range and bearing to TDC. SPEED SET TO ZERO.

That sets the fish to a zero gyro angle, they head straight out with no turns. Turn scope 12 degrees left (348 degrees relative) and OPEN OUTER DOORS (also important, otherwise there's a delay and the fish will miss behind). When target is in crosshairs fire, target and torpedo meet dead ahead of sub.

Now.

If you estimate speed at 10, set AOB to 90 and set speed at 10 in the TDC, along with using angle-off, the TDC will set the gyro angle to 12 degrees right, you're firing with the scope 12 degrees left, add the angle-off aiming of 10 knots to the TDC speed of 10 knots, the effect would be a target speed of 20 knots - so you miss ahead of a 10 knot target every time.

Use one method or the other, adding them together results in the wrong speed and therefore wrong firing angle.

[Barkerov]

Originally Posted by Sniper297

If you estimate speed at 10, set AOB to 90 and set speed at 10 in the TDC, along with using angle-off, the TDC will set the gyro angle to 12 degrees right, you're firing with the scope 12 degrees left, add the angle-off aiming of 10 knots to the TDC speed of 10 knots, the effect would be a target speed of 20 knots - so you miss ahead of a 10 knot target every time.

Use one method or the other, adding them together results in the wrong speed and therefore wrong firing angle.

That's how I am seeing it!

[Gray Lensman]

Though it's not apparent in his post(s), maybe he unknowingly has his torpedoes set to FAST speed but sets up for a SLOW speed shot per DepthToKeel's video that he's using. That for sure would lead to torpedoes passing in front EVERY time.

edit... Ah... I see Rockin' Robbins already mentioned that.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Gray Lensman

Though it's not apparent in his post(s), maybe he unknowingly has his torpedoes set to FAST speed but sets up for a SLOW speed shot per DepthToKeel's video that he's using. That for sure would lead to torpedoes passing in front EVERY time.

edit... Ah... I see Rockin' Robbins already mentioned that.

That kind of error is what comes from overthinking the problem. Complexity is not the same as precision. Sometimes it ruins precision. Keep it simple equals hit your targets. Forget the fussy stuff.

A perfect example would be the Battle of Gettysburg. How many people think a frontal attack against the strong point of the enemy, mostly uphill over clear terrain over at least a half mile of killing ground was typical of General Lee's battle methods? Lee won his battles by misdirection and unexpected movement, not frontal assaults! So what part of the puzzle are we not taught? The missing part of the puzzle is the invincible Confederate cavalry. It's job was to circle around the Union Army and take them on the rear at a certain time. That would weaken the attack point in front, ensuring the collapse of the Union army. But a man disgraced today, George Armstrong Custer, attacked the front of the Confederate cavalry with a measly two hundred men with such ferocity that the Confederates considered such an attack would only take place if there was huge backing behind. Instead the way was clear behind Custer. Had the Confederates engaged, in fifteen minutes they would have been on their way to another victory. Instead, they were induced by chaos into making the wrong decision. Complexity wrought error. Error brought defeat.

The same thing happened in the Pacific war with the attack of Taffy 3 on Japanese capital ships on the way to the Philippine invasion beaches. In fifteen minutes all those destroyers and escort carriers could have been on the bottom and the Japanese fleet falling on the rear of our invasion ships. But the Japanese considered that such a stupid attack could only imply tremendous backing behind. They retreated, snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. It was an exact reenactment hidden decisive action of the Battle of Gettysburg, but wetter.

First of all: Thanks everyone for the answers, especially RockinRobins for the quick rundown of how the method actually works. Since i took the video I posted as the start point I was under the impression that you take the TDC out of the equation and try to get exact 90° angles.

I now see how stupid this is since the TDC can mitigate a lot of the errors you make in the setup and will use this method in the future.

However: The method I described should still work as long as you are exact and after long testing i finally found the answer.
I was about to rip my hair out after trying it exactly like RockinRobins said but still got no hit. It wasn't because I set anything wrong.
It was the Torpedo Depth. Either I am very unlucky or it's normal that they all run too deep. I alway set the depth to a few feet above the targets draft but never got a hit (I thought the were passing in front of the target but after checking the attack map again they were all more or less dead on).
As soon as I set the depth to about 5 feet I got hits, with the method I tried first and with the actual Dick O'Kane RockinRobins described.

Now I can finally start my actual carreer and not get insane after repeatedly not getting any torpedo hits.
Well, I still have a lot to learn, especially about attacking convoys and avoiding screens but at least I can reliable sink single merchants now

So, thanks again for the help everyone!

Edit: I also figured out the problem with the savegames. Seems like the game doesn't like it if you load a savegame when you are still in the sub. When I quit the game and then load the savefile, everything is fine.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by dergrunty

First of all: Thanks everyone for the answers, especially RockinRobins for the quick rundown of how the method actually works. Since i took the video I posted as the start point I was under the impression that you take the TDC out of the equation and try to get exact 90° angles.

I now see how stupid this is since the TDC can mitigate a lot of the errors you make in the setup and will use this method in the future.

However: The method I described should still work as long as you are exact and after long testing i finally found the answer.
I was about to rip my hair out after trying it exactly like RockinRobins said but still got no hit. It wasn't because I set anything wrong.
It was the Torpedo Depth. Either I am very unlucky or it's normal that they all run too deep. I alway set the depth to a few feet above the targets draft but never got a hit (I thought the were passing in front of the target but after checking the attack map again they were all more or less dead on).
As soon as I set the depth to about 5 feet I got hits, with the method I tried first and with the actual Dick O'Kane RockinRobins described.

Now I can finally start my actual carreer and not get insane after repeatedly not getting any torpedo hits.
Well, I still have a lot to learn, especially about attacking convoys and avoiding screens but at least I can reliable sink single merchants now

So, thanks again for the help everyone!

Edit: I also figured out the problem with the savegames. Seems like the game doesn't like it if you load a savegame when you are still in the sub. When I quit the game and then load the savefile, everything is fine.

Yahoo! Now get to work. The fishies are depending on you to sink them some new habitat.

[max-peck]

Originally Posted by dergrunty

It was the Torpedo Depth. Either I am very unlucky or it's normal that they all run too deep. I alway set the depth to a few feet above the targets draft but never got a hit (I thought the were passing in front of the target but after checking the attack map again they were all more or less dead on).
As soon as I set the depth to about 5 feet I got hits, with the method I tried first and with the actual Dick O'Kane RockinRobins described

Good stuff - well done for catching that
There were many skippers on early war patrols that did not realise that was what was happening, as far as they were concerned they just kept missing

And of course as far as the Bureau of Ordnance was concerned there was absolutely nothing wrong with the torpedoes - they kept to the Department line that it was the skippers fault for entering incorrect data into the TDC

And that was not the only problem with the Mark 14 torpedo - there were a number of faults
When they would fix one of them, it would then make the next fault apparent

Makes for some sobering reading
http://www.defensemedianetwork.com/s...u-of-ordnance/
http://www.historynet.com/us-torpedo...rld-war-ii.htm

A few things to bear in mind

If you have Duds turned on in the options screen you can expect the following until about the middle of 1943

1 - They will run 10-12 feet deeper than set

2 - Magnetic exploders may well either fail entirely, or explode prematurely. Prematures more likely the rougher the sea state

3 - The contact exploder may fail. Failures are more likely with using the fast torpedo speed, and also with impact angles close to 90 degrees
Eg a 45 degree angle is much more likely to result in an explosion, pretty much the opposite of how the skippers had been taught to attack in peacetime exercises

4 - This one is a real doozy Very occasionally either the gyro or rudder will get stuck on full lock(I cannot remember now which one was the source of the problem). The torpedo will now circle back and attempt to sink you
Never mind - the exploders are so lousy it probably won't go off
There is at least one (possibly two) recorded instances during the Pacific Submarine War of a submarine being sunk by its own torpedo (The names of the boats escape me now)
Plus who knows. Lots of boats just failed to report in. We do not know if any of them experienced the same situation.

Another important thing to bear in mind
If you have duds turned off in the options, you should not experience problems 2, 3 and 4
However - your torpedoes will still run 10-12 feet deeper than set until mid '43
Disclaimer - I am going by memory now, but I am sure I have tested this in the past and found it to be the case
If anyone has found evidence to the contrary - please post - I will happily be proved wrong

The equivalent would be sending a rifleman into battle with a rifle that will only reliably shoot straight 3 times out of 10.
6 times the shot will not hit anything, no matter where they aim it
And one time out of 10 the bullet will shoot backwards straight out of the breech and attempt to hit the user in the face
In my opinion the failures of BuORD were negligent, bordering on criminal
Even worse was the refusal to accept there may be a problem, and the blaming of skippers for the problems
And that it took a whole 18 Months to fix all the problems undoubtedly (IMO) lengthened the Pacific War
But that is just my 2 cents

A few final things

If you stick with it you may find this game the most immersive life consuming game you have ever played
The feeling of picking off a fat merchant from a convoy, sneaking away whilst being pinged and depth charged for hours, then surfacing, doing an end around and attacking another ship from the same convoy the next night - well - there is nothing like it
Real cat and mouse stuff
I tell you - I must have over 100 games on Steam, plus many more non Steam games
But SH4 is the one I keep coming back to
Like an old comfort blanket

Plus SH4 is a game I can comfortably play whilst drinking a beer and smoking a cigarette

You are lucky that you found SUBSIM
Sure there may not be many of us around these days still playing SH4 - but those of us still here absolutely love this game
And you should always find a friendly face to answer any questions you may have

And last but not least

A hearty welcome aboard dergrunty

Good hunting