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Old 10-17-18, 05:51 PM   #1
Platapus
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Icon11 A man on his way to be taken off of lifesupport so his organs can be used.

https://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/watc...lk-of-respect/

Watch Hospital Staff – From Janitors to Surgeons – Line Hallway to Honor Organ Donor in ‘Walk of Respect’



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In an emotional gesture of support and respect, these hospital employees have a special way of honoring patients who choose to be organ donors.


A video that was released last week by St. Luke’s Medical Center in Meridian, Idaho shows the staff members lining the walls of the facility’s fourth floor so they can pay homage to a 53-year-old organ donor.

The man, whose family asked to remain anonymous, was on his way to being taken off of life support so that his organs could immediately benefit another patient.

Whenever a patient or a patient’s family agrees to organ donation, the hospital employees – from janitors to surgeons – quietly stand in the hallway as the donor is wheeled to the operating room.

The hospital has been performing the “Walk of Respect” tradition since they paid homage to an employee’s son who passed away a few years ago.
“It’s just a way we can honor the family who has made a difficult decision,” St. Luke’s spokeswoman Anita Kissée told the Idaho Statesman. “The family said it was just one of the most special things.”

Since the video has been shared across social media, other hospitals have reached out to St. Luke’s to express their interest in starting up the tradition at their own facilities.
To choose to end your life so that your organs can be used to save someone you probably don't know.



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Old 10-17-18, 07:26 PM   #2
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Some countries are making organ donation an "opt out" policy. As in, if you don't specify that you don't want to donate, you are automatically an organ donor. I think a lot more places should be like this.
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Old 10-17-18, 09:55 PM   #3
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A very nice gesture.
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Old 10-18-18, 01:40 AM   #4
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Some countries are making organ donation an "opt out" policy. As in, if you don't specify that you don't want to donate, you are automatically an organ donor. I think a lot more places should be like this.
I have some serious criticism of this.


When an organization for prtecting the environment would access my bank account and bill 50 coins off my savings, and I confront them when finding out, they would not get away with "But you have not opted out in advance, so we think it is okay that we access your bank account and take your money". The money is no donation then, but loot. And they would be brought to court for being robbers.


Its the same with opt out organ donation schemes.


The death criterion over the past decades has been systematically altered, and always following demands from progressing medical options namely organ donations. Becasue fact is: organs taken form a really dead body cannot be used for trsnsplantation, the yhve to be taken from a body that is biologically still alive. And this life gets brought to an end in order to take its organs.



The death criterion based on brain activity is not safe, too, as a recent case form the uS has shown. A girl had fallen into coma years ago, still her body and her brain curves sometimes reacted to words spoken to her, and physical manipulations of her hands, body.


What s life, were does it end, were is death taking over? We more and more understand that it is no strict criterion at all, but a process that takes quite some longer time to complete.


State and others, society, have taken advantage of us all our life long. In many cases hey still will milk us for money after we "died", at leats in Germany were by law there is an obligation that you must be buried at a cemetery that gets paid for to and that taxed by the local community. In Germany it is not legal to take the ashes of you loved deceased ones home, the ymust be stored at a cemetery (that why some germans evade to the Netherlands in dfiance to the legal demands and where the laws are far more liberal). After a life full of getting mled on and on, it now is declared as natural that even in death you still must autmatically be taken advantage of?



Trust in the uncorrupted organisation of organ trade is not justified, many scandals over here have proven that.



Nobody here or elsewhere is to judge that this patient or old person now has to be brought to death for the benefit of another patient, just becasue the latter may be younger. Becareful with such underhanded arbitrary decision-making on life and death, you are dangerously close to very malicous terrain here: the claim for the total control of the individual usually is only made by dictatorships .



And again: the medical understanding of the dying process, is by far incomplete, and the death criterions have been opportunistically shifted in favour of the demands of advancing organ transplantation in past decades, repeatedly.


Nobody stops you to deicde for yourself. Set up a will and declare your inention, do so in advance. If you want to donate, do it, I do not stop you. But do not dare to make the body of a man the automatic property of the community in the name of an arbitrarily defind higher cause. I go even so far to say that those who want an opt-out model for organ donation have ni call anymore for opposing the detah penalty at the same time for mroal reasons.


Moral demands the unprovoked voluntary decision for self-sacrifice or early-dying by the affected donor.


It is also this automatism that some people want that ahs made me an ardent opponent of organ transplatation in general. Pltiics must teach us that you always have to expect the worst from politics and political manipulation. But here, once again people'S heart open up in joy just becasue another claim is made that it all is "for something good"? I say: this all allows both for abuse, and for massive commercial corruption. it already happens, we alreayc have hgad quite many eamples. If you think that opt out is the way to go, you demonstrate an attitude of wanting to rule over not ciotizensm but just subjects that is not different to that the Chiense state for exampel demnstrates towards its subjects in China.



A donation is not mandatory, and beign able to opt out does not make it a donation wher ein fact it is an obligation then (from which you can opt out).



The only thing I totally agre eon is that people who do not want to dinate at the end of their life, shall not have a claim to prfit from organ donatiosn themselves. But then, you need to make a decision early in your life here, and youth and the limited mindspan and different worldview that brings, holds its own complicaitons of this matter.


No automatisms here, no opt out. Keep donating voluntary from all beginning on, to all end. Nobody, neither young nor old, has any claim for that somebody else has to live and die for ones own benefit.


Altruism as a mandatory duty? No thanks.



I carry a card in my wallet, it says that I do not donate organs in case fate strikes me and takes me out and I cannot voice my will anymore, it also says: I do not want to be given organs. However, I am close to the family of a girlfriend I know since long. If her daughters would be in need, i would volunteer to get tested wether my biology is compatible with theirs, and then would will to donate a kidney, or bone marrow. And under certain conditions I could imagine to go even further than this. But you see, I reserve the right to chose on the when, what and for whom. And whether these factors are up to the views of some strangers, is compeltely uninteresting for me.



I oppose the generalisation and automatism and the official strawman story about death criterions and the goodness of donating. That arbitrary medicla opprtnism has so ver ymuch to do with all thsi is clear for anyone who takes the time and investigates the matter ver the past 40 years a bit deeper. And when human life becomes an opportune ressource, I start to be alarmed.


Leave it voluntary. Leave it to opt in. Opt out is not donating, bur force.



That the inventors of nudging could even win a Nobel prize for this, will allways be beyond me.It sounds more appropriate to throw them into jail.


In China, the state can decide that this or that prisoner can be turned into a volunteer organ donator. Thats the logical next step if you will opt in. The state already did so and does so in other areas as well: obligatory draft for the military , mandatory social "volunteer years", and always it gets given a positive twist. But its always about the total availability of the subject owned by the state, the higher good, a higher cause, the common interest.


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Old 10-18-18, 04:59 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Gargamel View Post
Some countries are making organ donation an "opt out" policy. As in, if you don't specify that you don't want to donate, you are automatically an organ donor. I think a lot more places should be like this.
I agree, and would go as far as it should not even be an option; if you are in a public hospital and you die, the doctors should have the option of harvesting your organs if they are viable and needed. After all, you are going to be using them anymore.
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Old 10-18-18, 07:49 AM   #6
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Hospitals as the enemy of patients. Great idea, Neal.



Just because you or anyone thinks it is a great idea that person X has his de facto life ended artificially because somebody else would benefit from that (thats what it is about, whether oyu see that or not), does not mean you have any claim for making such a decision. I repeat: organss from already died bodies, cannot be tranbslpanted, the cdetah criterion has supiciously followed the demands of transplantation medicine in past decades and has been soften up accoridngly, and the fine line between detah and life has become blurry and anything but strict as it once appeared to be. Today, people can be reanimated, under certain and psotiive cicumstances even 20 minutes after "death", and their b rain not suffering at all, or only lightly dmaaged. The same patient, if getting struck by fate and no first class cooling available, would be "harvested", as you put it.


To-be-donors have to make that decision by themselves, voluntarily. That is the only way.


Else you could also say its a public hospital, so they may try experimental methods on you against yur will as well. If I would prorose that as German, the world immediately would call Nazi! and KZ-doctor!


What is life? What is death? Where do individual rights start, where do they end?


Careful with easy, quick, oh-so-reasonable answers here. We know one thing about life and death, we understand this one thing better and better since a few years: and that is that we cannot say, that we do not know as certain as we once assumed we would know.
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Old 10-18-18, 08:47 AM   #7
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Utmost respect.
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Old 10-18-18, 02:10 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gargamel View Post
Some countries are making organ donation an "opt out" policy. As in, if you don't specify that you don't want to donate, you are automatically an organ donor. I think a lot more places should be like this.
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I agree, and would go as far as it should not even be an option; if you are in a public hospital and you die, the doctors should have the option of harvesting your organs if they are viable and needed. After all, you are going to be using them anymore.
One of the issues is the potential for corruption, ie patients being de-facto murdered for their organs.


Which is why I would be explicitely against such regulation in say Russia and why such regulation in Ukraine (with authorisation to export such biological materiel abroad, to the rich payers) concerns me, as it already generates an increase in the organ trafficing related deaths.
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Old 10-18-18, 03:37 PM   #9
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It is said that blood conserves in germany are kind of rare. However, regarding public blood donating, my hometown Münster ranks very high, is a hotspot in Germany, at leats the last time I read about it, which is maybe 1.5 or 2 years ago. But: it was supposed to be donation for a wellfare organisation, namely the Red Cross, which runs a huge blood bank over here. Two years ago it was found and reported that the blood donated by Münster people gets commercially sold around and far beyond the region - which is not legal and in violence of certain laws granting the Red cross and othe rsuch organizations certain privilieges and tax liberations due to their character as serving for the public welfare. Commercial profit interests are not tolerated by these laws, to avoid corruption and disruption of the wellfare charcater of these organizations. Which is illegal, because the Red Cross enjoys a certain legal status as an organisation that grounds on it not getting commercially active and not selling service or stuff for profit. They were not allowed to sold blood for profit - while telling the local population that they must donate blood because the regional reserves are running low.



We have already severla very hiuge, seirous scandals within the system of the transplantation industry. Favouritism for patients paying more, international export and import for commercial interest, illegal smuggling, and more.



Where corruption is possible in too big organisations and thus lacking transparency, corruption will occure, that is almost a natural law. However, that is not my basic point of criticsm of mandatory or even just opt-out- organ donation. What I point at regarding the arbitrary redefinition of death criterions that in themselves do not make that much sense as many still believe, but always follow the needs of a blossoming transplantation industry and the involved money (yes, a lot of money if involved in this, and hospitals get bonusses for being envovle din the system in any way) - that is my main criciticsm.



Leave it voluntary. Nobody is subject to somebody else's property interests in his life and body. Where this would get accepted directly or indirectly, no matter for what a reason, justificaiton or cause claimed good and noble, is an agent ob subjugating citizens into subjects and in fact: slaves. We have way too much state-run paternalism and commanding already, we do not need ever more of that, and even touching upon an individuals physical integrity and untouchability.



I am not against donating, I do not want to make my rejection a general obligation for everybody. If somebody wants to donate, so let him do it. Its a most personal decision and nobody shall interfere with it being formed. But I totally oppose the regulation that wants to press, push, nudge, bully, force people into more or less obedience with another ideologically demand. Altruism is no moral duty, but must be a free decision and voluntary action, to be actually altruism and not just enforced obedience. Where this is questioned, tyranny and inhumane crimes will and do rise.



Keep donating voluntary. Opt out models are not donating, but are about plundering everybody who is not up the tree when counting one-two-three.


And nobody here or elsehwhere is the authority to weigh one life span against another. If you need an organ, and get one, see it as a gift freely and voluntarily given by somebody who was not dead but still alive when the organ(s) was/were taken. But you never have had a claim for it. You have no claim for the life of somebody else.

So my model: voluntary opt in - and only when you have filed your willingness at a data base, you shall have access to organs being given to you, if need arrives, of course. This is the general rule, details not adressed in every- well, in every detail. Because of course you cannot expect to be given if you refuse to give in return, that is clear.Solidarity without reciprocity, is no solidarity, but one-sided abuse.
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Old 10-18-18, 04:55 PM   #10
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I carry a card in my wallet, it says that I do not donate organs in case fate strikes me and takes me out and I cannot voice my will anymore, it also says: I do not want to be given organs. However, I am close to the family of a girlfriend I know since long. If her daughters would be in need, i would volunteer to get tested wether my biology is compatible with theirs, and then would will to donate a kidney, or bone marrow. And under certain conditions I could imagine to go even further than this. But you see, I reserve the right to chose on the when, what and for whom. And whether these factors are up to the views of some strangers, is compeltely uninteresting for me.

All that on a card?
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Old 10-18-18, 05:50 PM   #11
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Hehe, the profound info for emergency indeed on a card: my medication, adress and phone of my parents, that I do not donate and do not want organs transplanted on me - and where to find my patient's will with several pages of much more specific medical informaiton and rules on what goes and what I rule out.



I recommend everybody to have something like this, and to also fill a patient's will that rules what kind of medical treatments you accept and what not and under what circumstances. Do not leave critical decisions to foreigners, or friends and loved ones. Make them yourselve while you still can. Once fate has taken you out and you cannot articulate yourself any longer, or suffer brain damage, or lie in coma, its too late. Being of young age, is no excuse. When you are old enough to join the army or to vote or to found a family, you are old enough to think of your final end as well. I also think this holds a chance to maybe allow change to some of our usually unquestioned common beliefs and everyday assessments we normally take too easily for granted and do not spend any thinking on at all.
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Old 10-18-18, 08:08 PM   #12
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All that on a card?

Nah, once he's dead, we throw away the card and bring out the knives.

If a guy dies and there's another guy who needs a kidney or he will die, it would be a crime to let him die just so an already dead bloke can be buried (or cremated) with his organs. That's crazy selfish.
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Old 10-18-18, 10:11 PM   #13
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Nah, once he's dead, we throw away the card and bring out the knives.

If a guy dies and there's another guy who needs a kidney or he will die, it would be a crime to let him die just so an already dead bloke can be buried (or cremated) with his organs. That's crazy selfish.

I agree but it does pose some ethical questions when the patient ain't quite dead yet. Like for instance at what point should medical staff stop trying to keep a donor patient alive? or should organ damaging medicines say of limited effectiveness be given to terminally ill patients?
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Old 10-19-18, 05:33 AM   #14
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Sigh of relief, at leats one guy, august, understood the depth of pandora'S box here.


And we have not even talked about claims for relgiously motivated motives, and their possible collision with medical and profit interests.


Neal, you maybe underestimate or ignore this one thing. You cannot transplant organs from a really already dead body. Th body must still be alive when you take them. And that means you actively end this life.


And there you have the link to the debate about euthanasia, both active and passive. Over here, its illegal. The US as well, I asuppose?


Its not that simple a thing as you imply, Neal. A rat tail of complications of both ethical and legal questions wait for you.


Keep it voluntary.




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Old 10-19-18, 06:23 AM   #15
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[...] And we have not even talked about claims for relgiously motivated motives, and their possible collision with medical and profit interests.
Religious motives can go to hell (which unfortunately does not exist, but i digress), unless the terminally ill patient allows or refuses the donating due to his own religious motives.

But there is of course the problem of money-making, by declaring patients dead that would still have a chance, for personal profit. It is very naive to think this would not happen, in a western capitalist, or even in a "communist" society like China.
And we have just seen how high the Saudis respect a life.


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I am almost sorry for posting this, because the OP really posted a link that could make one believe in humanity.
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