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Old 09-03-2005, 07:15 PM   #151
LuftWolf
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***Actually ignore this, if you've come late. Amizaur did a thorough speed test and the engine is bugged for all torps from 58-159kts.***

Ok guys, from the strange but true file.


The game engine is hardcoded to treat the max speed of the ADCAP at 55kts for calculation purposes. Raising the max speed of the weapon to something above 55kts, in effect, tells the engine to compute the physics at 55kts, and then add whatever the value the max speed is above 55kts to *any calculation*, up to about 3-4kts, based on early tests. So, when you tell the weapon to run at a particular speed, the game calculates that speed, and then adds the value above max speed to the torpedo calculations.

I have tried to run at max speed 60kts, and for any setting, we get about 4 kts above, with max 63kts. When I changed it to 58kts, I got a max speed of 61kts, and an over of about 3kts. If the max speed is set to 56kts, then the over will be 1 kts and the max speed will be 56kts, where the two effects would intersect on a graph.

This is unfortunate and unexpected. I think Ive had an interesting day of discoveries. I smell DARPA's hand in this.

In all seriousness, why would SCS hardcode the algorithms to 55kts for the ADCAP? since that is the only explanation for this regular but odd behavior...

Edit: I just read Amizaur's post, it could be a bug in the physics engine, but this is very particular behavior.
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Old 09-03-2005, 07:46 PM   #152
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I think it's not ADCAP-only issue, it's common for all torpedos. Make another AI used torpedo 60kts and see how fast it will go...

Just verified that some AI subs ARE COMPLETLY DEAF to the front !!!
That would explain some stories about ramming a Han without detection.

For example Han, Harusio and Ohio are deaf in front 60 degrees zone.
The deaf zone it's not 210 degrees, I forgot that 150 degrees cone of AI sensor means 150 each side, so efectively 300 degrees. But that still leaves 60deg deaf zone in front of many AI subs...
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Old 09-03-2005, 07:51 PM   #153
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Does anyone have any idea what max and min "Beam width" do in the sensor profile?

That is the one attribute that makes me very hestitant to change cone geometries in any arbitrary way. :hmm:
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Old 09-03-2005, 08:01 PM   #154
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Well, I don't know unfortunately... tried to change (increase) it to simulate worse angular resultion of towed array in front-rear axis, expected wider contact trace on broadband, but the result was target track scattered for whole sonar display :-(

SCS says it support modders, then some kind of modding documentation would be nice... all we know about database entries is what Ludger and jsteed have guessed.
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Old 09-03-2005, 08:01 PM   #155
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Oops, Amizaur corrected me. The cones are actually double the value listed in the DB, around the axis of symetry.

So the AI platforms with only one sensor are only 60 degrees blind. That's not so bad, but still... the sensors are extremely weak, as it is, and should be corrected.
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Old 09-03-2005, 08:05 PM   #156
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Amizaur, that's why I had the idea, as a "quick fix" of giving making the LF passive sonar an "uber sensor" similiar to a more deaf FFG TA (borrowing the geometry most importantly).

The the range of the HF passive sonar could be increased and that would be good enough, as many of those subs would have a baffle.
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Old 09-03-2005, 08:17 PM   #157
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I just gave my 688i sphere the FG TA array geometry and it works beautifully!

It's up to you guys, we could have this very soon.

Keep in mind, it might make the AI a bear to fight.

Edit: Given that surface platform currently share the LF passive sonar with submarines, that solution has lost a little bit of taste for me, as it would either result in very sensitive submarines or very deaf surface ships at speed (currently they are more or less anyway). I think I will try something...
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Old 09-03-2005, 08:40 PM   #158
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I believe I gave the AI ears in the DB I sent LuftWolf a few weeks ago and broke the generic LF Passive sensor into four sensors (only three of which are used) and gave the more capable ones to the more capable submarines and the less capable ones to the less capable submarine. The Han shouldn't have an LF Passive sensor as it doesn't have a towed array. The more capable generic LF Passive sensor (which most western and European and Russian AI subs are given) is equal to the TB-16 (which happens to be the same as the SQR-19, apart from beam widths and whatnot). I also set the AI sensor cones to the same as the playable TAs.

Did you actually look at what I sent you LuftWolf? Not trying to be mean, just curious.
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When the range was 5,500 yards the target hoisted a flag signal, both he and the escort turned toward at high speed, the "Q" ship uncovered his guns and the first salvo was a straddle. BATFISH bent on four and started executing the well known maneuver of getting the hell out...

Fifth war patrol, USS BATFISH
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Old 09-03-2005, 08:44 PM   #159
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Yes, I looked at the submarine sound level fixes.

I either forgot or didn't read that you had done the sonars as well.

I'm really sorry about that. In case you were wondering, I was planning on including what you had done in consultation with you for v1.04, including it under the "more difficult" moddling heading, as I wanted the sound levels to be agreeable for everyone.

My bad.

Edit: Please see my email.
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Old 09-03-2005, 08:53 PM   #160
PeriscopeDepth
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Take a look at what I did with the sensors and see if you and Amizaur think it makes sense. I put what I changed in the DB in the textfile that was also in the zip.

I'm not trying to nag you about crediting me in the readme or whatever, just think it's kinda silly that you didn't notice the sensor issue before especially when I sent you a DB that addressed the issue weeks ago. The AI being deaf is one of the top three things wrong with the DB IMO.



And BTW, I'm thinking about adding additional AI platforms into the DB and just using generic models that come with the game to portray them.
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When the range was 5,500 yards the target hoisted a flag signal, both he and the escort turned toward at high speed, the "Q" ship uncovered his guns and the first salvo was a straddle. BATFISH bent on four and started executing the well known maneuver of getting the hell out...

Fifth war patrol, USS BATFISH
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Old 09-03-2005, 09:01 PM   #161
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I'm sometimes a very silly person and operate under a stress level that makes me miss somethings, of course, for no good reason at all, given what my responsiblities are.

In my mind, I had your mod as, "the mod with the sound level changes" and that's my only excuse. Other than that, I hope you can accept my apologizies and explanation that we made a decision not to include any sound level changes, which was probably a mistake on my part in suggesting that.

I have looked at your changes, and to be honest, I don't know the various platforms well enough to have made those changes. There are a couple of things that I would change, and I'll consult with you and Amizaur about that, but largely, I believe you will get credit for that part of the mod, because I would have definately sought your help if you knew enough to make those changes.

In terms of the AI sensor fixes, I will email you with a couple of questions right now.
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Old 09-03-2005, 09:05 PM   #162
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Fuhgettabout it.
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When the range was 5,500 yards the target hoisted a flag signal, both he and the escort turned toward at high speed, the "Q" ship uncovered his guns and the first salvo was a straddle. BATFISH bent on four and started executing the well known maneuver of getting the hell out...

Fifth war patrol, USS BATFISH
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Old 09-03-2005, 10:24 PM   #163
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For those of you that want to know NOW:

Amizaur did a thorough test of the torpedo speeds. All torpedos from 58kts max speed to 159kts max speed exhibit all kinds of funny oscillations in speed and sometimes course and depth. This behavior demonstrates a problem in the physics engine, most likely. Note: 200kts shikvals and any torpedo with speed under 58kts work fine.

I think there will be more on this to come. :hmm:
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Old 09-05-2005, 04:59 AM   #164
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LW I thought it might keep this fraternity up to speed if I posted an extract from yours on BFC 4/9/05 :-

Quote:
We are currently looking at a new version (sooner that expected) that adds realisticly varying sensor cones for torpedos (by type, from ADCAP with several catagories down to Subrocs and older torpedos) and adds varying passive sonar sensors to AI subs and ships, to correct a 60 degree *total* blindness that many AI units have (the reason you can run over a Han at 30kts from the front) and give AI units MUCH more sensitive sonars, similar to human platforms, so they have a fighting chance at out-detecting a human platform, as currently all AI only vessels have extremely weak sonars, which, I believe, is 85% of the explanation as to why AI platforms, especially subs, appear to act "dumb" in many tactical situations.

Also on tap for this next version is a rescaling of all platforms passive sound levels, to make passive detections more difficult in general, and also relative changes to better reflect real-world sound levels between submarines.

I believe the combined effect of these three changes will make DW light years better, especially in missions that require many AI platforms to behave realisticly. I will keep you guys posted. I hope to have a version done in the next few days.

Cheers,
David
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Can't wait - heck you guys are busy. :|\
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Old 09-05-2005, 10:59 AM   #165
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Thanks Bellman, I was just going to post an update!

We've got a couple of other things in this next version, too.

Expect a full list of changes tonight, and perhaps the mod itself.

Cheers,
David
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