way too hard!

[BigWalleye]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

I want to come to álvaro's defense here. "Realism" does not mean "real". It's a term coined by 19th-century painters to denote art that "feels" real. No, we can never be a u-boat kaleun, and I'm somewhat glad about that, but we can feel like one in our own minds. To those who say we are only "playing" a "videogame" I ask: Do you use the easiest settings and just set out to kill everything in sight? Do you use the hardest settings and set out to kill everything in sight, so you can brag about how good you are? Or do you use settings that make you feel you are onboard a u-boat, as much as is possible in a "videogame"?

Realism isn't about what "is" real, but about what "feels" real to the observer. All álvaro was asking for was information on mods that would let him have that feeling. There was really no need to challenge him on that and tell him how wrong you think he is.

In the words of Rockin' Robbins: "Realism is in how you play, not in the game settings."

If you will pardon me for contradicting you, Steve, "realism" was a term coined by 19th Century painters to denote art that strives to look real. "Impressionism" is the term for the artistic style that strives to create a realistic feeling. An alternative name for the "realism" style is "naturalism." Which is more realistic, RFB or TMO? NYGM or WAC ? Answer: It depends on what you like.

A good friend of mine used to say that he liked a certain book or wargame because "It confirms my historical prejudices." IMO, that's about as far as any of us can go.

[álvaro]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

I want to come to álvaro's defense here. "Realism" does not mean "real". It's a term coined by 19th-century painters to denote art that "feels" real. No, we can never be a u-boat kaleun, and I'm somewhat glad about that, but we can feel like one in our own minds. To those who say we are only "playing" a "videogame" I ask: Do you use the easiest settings and just set out to kill everything in sight? Do you use the hardest settings and set out to kill everything in sight, so you can brag about how good you are? Or do you use settings that make you feel you are onboard a u-boat, as much as is possible in a "videogame"?

Realism isn't about what "is" real, but about what "feels" real to the observer. All álvaro was asking for was information on mods that would let him have that feeling. There was really no need to challenge him on that and tell him how wrong you think he is.

In the words of Rockin' Robbins: "Realism is in how you play, not in the game settings."

Thanks you Mr. Sailor Steve for your words. Tkanks a lots for your defense of my opinion about the banry79´s words.

[banryu79]

Originally Posted by álvaro

Thanks you Mr. Sailor Steve for your words. Tkanks a lots for your defense of my opinion about the banry79´s words.

Just to be extremly clear: I red again and again my first post and came to the conclusion that I didn't write it the right way, and that's my fault.

With the "Oh, please, be rational!" thing I didn't mean to offend you, álvaro.
I wanted to be provocative, yes, but not to place an offense on you.
So please, forgive me for that, I do not belive that you are not rational or that you are a fool because you try hard to feel like a real kaluen when you play: you see, it is the same thing I try to do when I play this game!

The point I was trying to make was another one and if I had to try and explain it using the minimum number of words to express it it will be something along these lines:

No, we can never be a u-boat kaleun, and I'm somewhat glad about that, but we can feel like one in our own minds.

IMHO we cannot feel like a (real) kaleun all we can do is that we can only pretend to feel like one. And, at least for me, this is an enormous difference. YMMV. I assume from your post here above that you agree with what Sailor Steve has expressed so I do not really know if what he said (and you) is in essence what I'm saying right here.

Sorry again álvaro, but in the future, please, try not to answer changing the language used, expecially if you switch in a language your interlocutor is not able to understand while for you is your native one.

[álvaro]

Originally Posted by banryu79

Just to be extremly clear: I red again and again my first post and came to the conclusion that I didn't write it the right way, and that's my fault.

With the "Oh, please, be rational!" thing I didn't mean to offend you, álvaro.
I wanted to be provocative, yes, but not to place an offense on you.
So please, forgive me for that, I do not belive that you are not rational or that you are a fool because you try hard to feel like a real kaluen when you play: you see, it is the same thing I try to do when I play this game!

The point I was trying to make was another one and if I had to try and explain it using the minimum number of words to express it it will be something along these lines:
IMHO we cannot feel like a (real) kaleun all we can do is that we can only pretend to feel like one. And, at least for me, this is an enormous difference. YMMV. I assume from your post here above that you agree with what Sailor Steve has expressed so I do not really know if what he said (and you) is in essence what I'm saying right here.

Sorry again álvaro, but in the future, please, try not to answer changing the language used, expecially if you switch in a language your interlocutor is not able to understand while for you is your native one.

everything are forgotten. Don´t worry banryu79. There isn´t any problem

[banryu79]

Originally Posted by álvaro

everything are forgotten. Don´t worry banryu79. There isn´t any problem

Nice to hear it!

[BigWalleye]

Discussions about “realism” and what is, or is not, or what feels “real” are all fraught with peril, because we all mean so many different things by the word “realism.” Banryu79, it sounds like you play as I do, which is “role-playing the Kaleun”. Example: I use the “No Fatigue” model because every fatigue model for SH3 gives the player tasks no real Kaleun had to do. Others use the “working model submarine” approach. They would never think of playing without some sort of fatigue model, because fatigue was a real issue on board a combat submarine. Yet, they may use, and enjoy, an external view of the sub, which I never do. (The Kaleun didn’t get off the boat!) Still others play every available position in the boat: soundman, navigator, gun crews, etc. And these are all different ways of playing with “high realism!” YMMV indeed! We aren’t even all using a car!

The point here is that all of these ways of playing the game (and I am sure there are others as well) incorporate some aspects of the real-world prototype and minimize others. That is frequently the case in any simulation. Someone has to decide, based on the purpose of the simulation, what gets emphasized and what gets left out. In our case, because of the wonderful variety of mods available, each of us can make that choice, based on what we personally want from the game.

And BTW, “simulation” is not the opposite of “game.” A simulation can be a game, or not. A game can be a simulation, or not. From Merriam-Webster:

simulation: something that is made to look, feel, or behave like something else especially so that it can be studied or used to train people

game: a physical or mental activity or contest that has rules and that people do for pleasure

One thing that is clear from the definitions is that the two terms are not mutually exclusive. Another thing that is clear is that everyone who plays SH3 does so for pleasure. Not for money, not to study submarine warfare to write a book, or prepare for a course. Certainly not to improve our performance as a real-life submariner. We all do it for personal enjoyment. If we learn anything from the experience, we do so not for any practical benefit, but for personal satisfaction. And so, by definition, SH3 is always a simulation, but it is also always a game.

[UKönig]

And no matter your desired level of game 'realism' there are two things that the program cannot simulate and you should be thankful that it cannot.
The first is the horrible smell of all the different organic and even inorganic materials on board (to say nothing of the crew who are the bulk, sweaty teenagers). And the actual threat to life and limb. You cannot ever be killed. The only way you could capture the essence of fear of death and that each patrol could be your last would be to keep a loaded gun or a cyanide pill handy so that if your sim-captain died, you would be honor bound to kill yourself as well. That would put a different spin on things. So no matter what, there are levels of realism that we are better off without...

[enjoi]

sorry but SH3 is not "way too hard". I'm currently at August 1944 in my career playing the NYGM mod and I've just hit 313,000 tons. The Destroyers seem a little more difficult to shake in GWX but by no means is it a piece of cake in NYGM either. You just have to know how to escape and survive. It's all about technique.

[maillemaker]

I'm not looking for realism. That cannot be achieved without a holodeck.

What I'm looking for is a game with realistic parameters.

Steve

[BigWalleye]

Originally Posted by maillemaker

I'm not looking for realism. That cannot be achieved without a holodeck.

On the contrary, it is perfectly possible to simulate some aspects of submarine warfare quite accurately using paper, pencils, and dice. It all depends on which aspects you wish to simulate, and to what level of accuracy.

"Realism" is a highly ambiguous and often subjective term which gets tossed about as though it had some precise, quantifiable meeaning for everyone. It doesn't.

What I'm looking for is a game with realistic parameters.

Steve

I'm afraid I have no better understanding of what you are looking for than before you wrote your post. What parameters? And what degree of "realism" (sic)? More precisely, what aspects of the simulation do you want to see modeled more accurately?

With all the mods that have been created for SH3 over a period of nine years, it's possible that some mod does exactly what you are looking for. But before anyone else can point you to it, we need to know more unambiguously what it is you want.

[Von Tonner]

Abiding by the principle of each to his own re the games own in built choices in difficulty the other element I like to keep in mind is 'behaviour'.

I try and play the game in the most realistic way a real Kaleu might behave. To this end I read as much as I can get my hands on by way of diaries they might have kept and books that have been written on the subject. An excellent book I am busy making my way through now is "War Beneath the Sea", described as the standard work on the subject of submarine warfare.

Obviously I play 'dead is dead' (skipping the cyanide pill on my desk) and my crew are 'real' to me so what decisions I take regarding attacking, surface re-loads etc are taken with their safety in mind plus the asset I have been trusted with - namely my boat. I avoid attacking destroyers at all costs if possible for example. And taking on planes is just not even something I would go out of my way to do.

A more recent example is my current patrol. I refuelled from a milk cow in June off the East coast of the States and was all keen to go back and patrol off New York and possibly do this many times as the milk cow was going to be stationed in the grid till Xmas. And in so doing rack up the tonnage hopefully. But Sailor Steve pointed out in my post on this that milk cows were primarily there to enable boats to get back home. So if that is how it was in reality - then its back to Lorient we go and not to 'game the game' so to speak.

But as I say, each to his own. Silent Hunter 3 is an enjoyable and enthralling game however you play it.

[banryu79]

Originally Posted by Von Tonner

Obviously I play 'dead is dead' (skipping the cyanide pill on my desk) and my crew are 'real' to me so what decisions I take regarding attacking, surface re-loads etc are taken with their safety in mind plus the asset I have been trusted with - namely my boat. I avoid attacking destroyers at all costs if possible for example. And taking on planes is just not even something I would go out of my way to do.

A more recent example is my current patrol. I refuelled from a milk cow in June off the East coast of the States and was all keen to go back and patrol off New York and possibly do this many times as the milk cow was going to be stationed in the grid till Xmas. And in so doing rack up the tonnage hopefully. But Sailor Steve pointed out in my post on this that milk cows were primarily there to enable boats to get back home. So if that is how it was in reality - then its back to Lorient we go and not to 'game the game' so to speak.

That's more or less the same way I try to play this game, and me too I've start to get and read books, diaries, patrol reports and a whole lot of stuff on Uboote and WWII submarines because of this game
"Education" in its highest, funniest form

[Lanzfeld]

Originally Posted by enjoi

sorry but SH3 is not "way too hard". I'm currently at August 1944 in my career playing the NYGM mod and I've just hit 313,000 tons. The Destroyers seem a little more difficult to shake in GWX but by no means is it a piece of cake in NYGM either. You just have to know how to escape and survive. It's all about technique.

I would love to hear your technique.

Fastfed: It's not your game sprinter, even your nickname tells you do not have any patience to get along nicely with it. This game is designed mostly for mature and calm ppl inside,who doesn't do speedrunning with U-boats in critical moments. You do not look to me as that type of person, so it's not your game so far. Perhaps after you grow up older, later you might reconsider you type of playing this game with more mature manners and wisdom =]

[maillemaker]

On the contrary, it is perfectly possible to simulate some aspects of submarine warfare quite accurately using paper, pencils, and dice. It all depends on which aspects you wish to simulate, and to what level of accuracy.

There is nothing you can simulate about being in a uboat with paper, pencils, and dice, unless you are actually using a paper, pencils, and dice inside a uboat.

I'm afraid I have no better understanding of what you are looking for than before you wrote your post. What parameters? And what degree of "realism" (sic)? More precisely, what aspects of the simulation do you want to see modeled more accurately?

None. I'm generally quite happy with the parameters of SH3. I was not trying to imply any kind of shortcoming with SH3.

I'm just saying that I'm not looking for realism, because that can't be done using a computer and a LCD screen. I'm just looking for realistic parameters of the performance of the things modeled in the simulation.

SH3 is of course not perfect, but I am content with it.

Steve