Contract Of Common Sense - Page 5

08-22-09, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by karamazovnew

Everybody wants wolfpacks

. Do you even realize what a wolfpack means in a GAME?! THe germans had at times less than 20 boats covering the atlantic, so everytime one encountered a convoy, all gathered on that route to nibble at their shins. Having 5-10 submerged subs in a 20 mile radius would've been suicide for a lot of reasons. We don't want wolfpacks, we just don't want to feel that we're alone there. Dynamic communications and reports, radio messages from other boats and from the sinking ships, orders that make sense from BdU, weather reports from the entire ocean, that's what wolpacks were all about

.

Where was I? Oh yea, endorsement. Well, I just hope they'll release a nice Collector's Edition because I've already saved about 100 bucks for it. I'm gonna preorder it as soon as it's available for preorder

. Heck, I'll pay the guy that can knock me out untill then, I can't wait!

I would give my vote this time for inclussion of more real things in the game rather than just useless radio messages for immersion factor.
And random wolfpacks formations are a must, but of course it would be up to you to decide join the hunt or no.

cgjimeneza · 08-22-09, 07:26 AM

From Amazon via subsim..... but a bit latter, do you have any idea what %%% of my salary a brand new game is? this is the 3rd world.

or maybe a new job.

I have invested a bit to build my new PC (still building it) and yes, we just dont buy a game, but rebuild our main PCs for it

but the investment is worth the expenditure.

so yes, count me in, after all, I have the 4 previous ones!

a cheer for Ubi for showing some commitment to the fan base

EDIT: hey UBI... make the pacific for no. 6 will ya?

IanC · 08-22-09, 08:36 AM

This is a little tricky, because the message alot of you are sending is; Thank you for making a SH5 and I will pre-order it no matter what it's like. On one hand this is a very encouraging message to the devs, but on the other... Something in the back of my mind thinks this might not be the best idea. I'm not sure...
Anyways here's my message to Ubi; I really want to encourage the SH series, but I will not (cannot!) buy SH5 if wolfpacks and dynamic radio communications are missing (yes I know, those two things again! But they make all the difference for immersion and they're hardcoded and can't be modded).
Besides, I'm too poor to dish out 60$ on a game that I would consider incomplete/missing key features.

karamazovnew · 08-22-09, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Contact

I would give my vote this time for inclussion of more real things in the game rather than just useless radio messages for immersion factor.
And random wolfpacks formations are a must, but of course it would be up to you to decide join the hunt or no.

I don't think I made myself clear

. In SH3 for example you get many hystoric SOS messages from "sinking" ships and reports from "other" uboats. If you recieve an SOS from a ship that's one mile away and you look around and see nothing, or recieve a bad weather report in your area and the sun is shining over calm waters, these are not immersive, but almost a painfull reminder that you're completely alone. If they do include other uboats the best way you'd know about it would be "real" reports from them and SOS messages form their victims.

You'd pass sinking ships or find lifeboats in the middle of the ocean, you'd see their actions, so each radio report will be a reminder that you're not alone. You'd join their convoy hunts and try to coordinate your attacks with them, cheer for each hit, cringe while you hear DC blow up in the distance. But even so you might never see them, at least not as in a tight Delta Formation, shooting all torpedoes at the same time, like in any bad Top Gun movie.

sunvalleyslim · 08-22-09, 10:12 AM

GO SH5 !!!!......will order thru SubSim ASAP......"Silent Hunter"......keeping me happy for 6 years.....

banjo · 08-22-09, 10:27 AM

I am happy to buy the game when released--my problem is I've not been able to purchase thru Subsim (or Ubisoft for that matter). That 2d2 site or whatever it is, will not recognize either of my email addresses (Juno and Yahoo) and will not allow my credit card. I know from posts that this happened to others also. I have no idea what the deal was (I purchase online routinely) but I hope it has changed. As a long time supporter of Subsim I'd prefer to buy here iff possible.

martes86 · 08-22-09, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

[...] but it is crucial to the survival of the submarine simulation genre that SH5 is a commercial success out of the gate. I endorse buying the game on release as long as Ubisoft is clearly trying to make the best subsim possible. Buy the game, keep the pressure on the suits at Ubi to support the Romanians in touching up any flaws.

I couldn't agree more, and that's what we always try to encourage at the 24th, precisely with the life of the genre in mind, as we know that this might be the last sim we get if we don't do it right. That's also the reason why we deny support to anyone having a pirated copy, and why some people decide to buy not one, but several copies of the sims, which also allows to people in South America to get it since retail problems and ultra-high local costs makes it hard for them to get legit copies and so, some buddies offer themselves to send these folks a copy via international post.
Me, I'll buy it on the same day it comes out, right after I check out at work... that is, if it makes it into the alloted release time and we don't get any delays, like what happened with SH4.

Cheers

TDK1044 · 08-22-09, 02:37 PM

I think everyone is pretty much on the same page. We love the Devs. We acknowledge but are very cautious of the Ubisoft suits, and we understand that no game can be all things to all people.

Let's not give the Silent Hunter 5 moderators a needlessly hard time. Instead, let's be positive and constructively critical when necessary, and let's purchase the new game through our own forum, using the link that Neal will provide, and by doing so support subsim and the continued development of the Silent Hunter franchise.

XLjedi · 08-22-09, 04:45 PM

On the one hand, yes; I'll buy it on release day just as I did with SH4 to show my support for the genre.

On the other hand, if it's expected (as it should by now) that the modders will have to improve and/or fix the game after a half-baked release then they better darn well provide a more modder friendly game and an SDK. If they don't then they can still have my money... but they'll also get my grief.

geosub1978 · 08-22-09, 05:09 PM

No matter what our expectations are and no matter when someone will buy the game, Ubi is obligated to sell a game 100% ready.

Just imagine that there are people who don't belong to this forum and they still play vanilla SH3 without even 1.4b (I know at least one...).

So our pressure has to be directed to the way of having SH5 ready in every aspect even with sacrificing days and months of the releasing date. This later will give some great mods which will enhance the game (SH3) and they will not make it just playable (SH4).

There is no reason to make Ubi convenient that no matter when they release the game they can take their time until they produce the last patch or until HanSolo or GWXteam, or I don't know who else, will make the game playable.

SH3 is the good example. It was 99% ready as vanilla and I enjoyed it. (first patch some 20mb)

SH4 is the bad example. They hurried to catch up the time thus the first patch(120+mb) was released before the game itself

So there is no reason to invent the circle once more. My opinion is that they should take their time, they know what people want, they have to do it and release it when they are really ready.

I will buy SH5 the first day.

Kresge · 08-22-09, 05:09 PM

I think there needs to be some serious beta testing and reviews of the full game before release to ensure that SH5 is in working order if we're expected to put our money out there in support of Ubi and Sh5. If we all run out and buy another unfinished package we've just encouraged them to produce more crap.

I have faith in the dev team, but as in any business, you need to back up your product. We can't expect unpaid modders to volunteer their valuable time to fix problems in a commercial product. Their only aim should be to add something fun or increase the value to the community of subsimmers.

Sure, I'll be buying it at release, but if they screw us again we need to screw them next time. SH2 was understandable in that the development was stalled numerous times as it was traded between companies. Development has been consistently with Ubi for 3-5, so it needs ot be an improvement, not just another version of the same theme.

CaptainHaplo · 08-22-09, 05:53 PM

Kresge - "Screw us again"??????

What are you talking about man?

SH3 and SH4 are both solid, stable and highly enjoyable games.

Plus they are moddable to some degree (though I would like to see SH5 be even more accessible).

Sure they came out with bugs. Name one game released nowadays that doesnt.

If they released a buggy game and refused to support it - then I would agree with your "again" comment. But on the contrary, UBI as a publisher and the Devs themselves have shown a commitment to fix the bugs that existed. I can understand if you don't like v1.0 builds. Fair enough - wait till its patched to a level you can accept. But the fact that its patched and supported as well as both SH3 and SH4 have been demonstrates your comment lacks an understanding of both the complexity of such software, and the limitations of the business market.

Goldorak - Perhaps you didn't read the OP. Yes you have a right to grump IF and WHEN you put down your hard earned money and the product fails to deliver. However, the post was targetted to stopping the PRERELEASE whining and complaining by those who don't have their hands on anything but what to fuss about things they lack first hand knowledge of. Until you or any other person slaps down their cash for the game and can play it, all the complaining your doing is based off of what you "THINK" the game "MIGHT" be, and thus is counterproductive.

No one here has ever said you can't complain about something, but at least be mature enough to only complain about what you KNOW and have PAID for.

*****************************************

Now - with that out of the way, any chance Subsim could gather questions for the devs and see what questions we can get answered?

Apparently the campaign is semi-dynamic - in that your actions have real impact. However, does that mean that you can turn the tide of the war? Are you locked into historical endings? Would there be a switch to allow for either a static "dynamic" campaign as in sh3/4 or a true "change the war" as the player sees fit?

Will SH5 feature the Staff abilities found in 1.5? Will it be more fully fleshed, with a "Command AI" on both sides that could control and oversea the war, using the player initially as simply another boat, while increases in rank gain the player higher freedom of action or larger input on the HQ?

Will the AI, aircraft, ship, sensor and weapon data be more accessible for modding?

Will SH5 impliment realistic sinkings out of the box - bouyancy vs a pure "hitpoint" system?

Will keelbreaking magnetic shots be modeled accurately? *Modders got close, but another out of the box function?

Milch Cows and Wolfpacks?

Truly "unique" ships that don't continue to spawn?

Optional realistic crew and captain rotations?

rascal101 · 08-22-09, 06:12 PM

I tend towards Neal's comments below - I'd rather continue to see developers work on games ideas because they have an idea the game will work, and will get a decent return upon release to pay the folks who worked on it to develop the thing.

Having been a gamer since the early 80s, it seems the general rule is publish then mod, to tweak the game to a stage where it mostly works for mostly every one after release. For those of us used to buying things finished in the box, that may come across as a bit much, or not right, but think about it, with the plethora of different hardware and software configurations out there, how else could it be.

However, to be fair - I can only ask that from the developer’s side they take more notice of the wishes of the purchasing public who may, during the course of development come up with ideas, concepts or issues that could well improve the game far and ahead of what the developers originally intended.

I remember that originally the SH3 dev's were going for a scripted career as opposed to dynamic and that when this became known there was such an uproar in this community that eventually they went for a dynamic career instead.

This one decision meant that SH3 became a game that is played and loved years after its original release, as opposed to a game that was shelved within 2-6 months of release.

So to Neal - who was so good at keeping us informed during SH3's development, I would ask that you, or the developers, or both produce a developer diary as soon as possible.

Sure it will inevitably be filled with a lot of useless, or off-topic crap - but at the same time such a diary would allow a really useful exchange of ideas from the dev team and from the community who will eventually purchase the game.

When the game is released I'll be first in line to buy my copy, and I will no doubt thrill at the new features when I get it home and get past installation. Then I w'll play the game somemore and be annoyed by the usual bugs and issues, and then I'll wait for the eventual patch, (or patches) that I know will be on the way.

Any then I will play the game some more while scanning the horizon for any mods that will make the game even more engaging.

Such is life - I cant wait, and if I'm still playing SH5 in 2015 then that will be a vallid tribute to the devs and modders who worked to make the game an ongoing experience.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

I appreciate that, but I would prefer that you buy the game when it is released and put it on the shelf until the time you feel it is patched and ready to play. Subsim can always use donation, but it is crucial to the survival of the submarine simulation genre that SH5 is a commercial success out of the gate. I endorse buying the game on release as long as Ubisoft is clearly trying to make the best subsim possible. Buy the game, keep the pressure on the suits at Ubi to support the Romanians in touching up any flaws.

I do not give a game--even a subsim--a blank endorsement check. As I said, I endorse buying a game on release to support the genre as long as Ubisoft is clearly trying to make the best subsim possible. SH2 was not a tremendous game, but I knew from months of working with the dev team that they meant to overcome so many obstacles and make it as good as possible. I threw my full support behind SH2, even though it was not the game we all wanted. It was, however, successful, and responsible for keeping the flame alive.

SH3 was a great game. SH4 was a good game that Ubisoft released too early. I was not as involved with SH4 as I was with SH2 and 3, so I cannot vouch for Ubisoft there. The marketing was bureaucratic and not very responsive, I was not "in the loop" much, and I think that was because they knew the game was not ready. If the same situation plays through with SH5, I may agree with the wait and see attitude. Being an optimist, I think Ubi will not make the same mistakes with SH5.

best
Neal

RickC Sniper · 08-22-09, 07:00 PM

I am a realist. I don't expect a perfect product right out the door. I don't think I've ever seen one. I DO however, see a track record from the Romanian team that tells me they'll give us the best product they are able to under the usual constraints placed on them by Ubisoft.

Besides, a decent subsim is something I'd buy over any other games anyway. Sh3 and sh4 were well deserving of my $$ and i expect sh5 should be as well.

Sh5 looks like it will be a bit of a different experience, and frankly I am ready for something like that.

KG_Jag · 08-22-09, 07:14 PM

I am way too old and experienced to buy a pig in a poke.

Here's hoping SH 5 is well done and a big success. Still I will not buy a game simply because it is called SH [insert number here]. Not only may you be disappointed, but telling a company in advance that you will buy a product no matter what can reward bad/undesirable to you behavior. Quality of the game is important. What the game is and is not are important. The DRM used is important. I don't want to reward a gaming house and its developer with my purchase dollars for making something I don't want.

An example of blind pre-ordering of a game based on a name and company reputation (at the time) that left a very bad taste in many mouths occurred two years ago when Battlefront released Combat Mission Shock Force (the first--and still only) game using their then brand new CM x 2 game engine. All CM x 1 engine games were well done and playable only in WeGo. But when CMSF came out it was a buggy incomplete piece of crap. Further, it had been designed as a single player RT game--with WeGo bolted on and largely untested.

I'll wait and see; read the reviews--especially those from real gamers; and hope for the best, but with a realistic eye.

08-22-09, 07:26 AM	#62
cgjimeneza Captain Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Costa Rica Posts: 527 Downloads: 145 Uploads: 0	Ill get it From Amazon via subsim..... but a bit latter, do you have any idea what %%% of my salary a brand new game is? this is the 3rd world. or maybe a new job. I have invested a bit to build my new PC (still building it) and yes, we just dont buy a game, but rebuild our main PCs for it but the investment is worth the expenditure. so yes, count me in, after all, I have the 4 previous ones! a cheer for Ubi for showing some commitment to the fan base EDIT: hey UBI... make the pacific for no. 6 will ya? __________________ Pacific Thunder Campaing VIII-Retired www.subsowespac.org "Left on their own, engineers can be dangerous"

08-22-09, 10:12 AM	#65
sunvalleyslim Ace of the Deep Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Los Angeles, Ca Posts: 1,142 Downloads: 267 Uploads: 0	GO SH5 !!!!......will order thru SubSim ASAP......"Silent Hunter"......keeping me happy for 6 years..... __________________ Crew member/ decommission member TM2(SS)(SD) 3/68-7/70 DIESEL BOATS FOREVER USS SEGUNDO (SS398)

08-22-09, 04:45 PM	#69
XLjedi Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Palm Beach, Florida Posts: 1,200 Downloads: 53 Uploads: 8	On the one hand, yes; I'll buy it on release day just as I did with SH4 to show my support for the genre. On the other hand, if it's expected (as it should by now) that the modders will have to improve and/or fix the game after a half-baked release then they better darn well provide a more modder friendly game and an SDK. If they don't then they can still have my money... but they'll also get my grief. __________________

08-22-09, 05:09 PM	#70
geosub1978 Samurai Navy Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Salamis Base Posts: 567 Downloads: 229 Uploads: 0	No matter what our expectations are and no matter when someone will buy the game, Ubi is obligated to sell a game 100% ready. Just imagine that there are people who don't belong to this forum and they still play vanilla SH3 without even 1.4b (I know at least one...). So our pressure has to be directed to the way of having SH5 ready in every aspect even with sacrificing days and months of the releasing date. This later will give some great mods which will enhance the game (SH3) and they will not make it just playable (SH4). There is no reason to make Ubi convenient that no matter when they release the game they can take their time until they produce the last patch or until HanSolo or GWXteam, or I don't know who else, will make the game playable. SH3 is the good example. It was 99% ready as vanilla and I enjoyed it. (first patch some 20mb) SH4 is the bad example. They hurried to catch up the time thus the first patch(120+mb) was released before the game itself So there is no reason to invent the circle once more. My opinion is that they should take their time, they know what people want, they have to do it and release it when they are really ready. I will buy SH5 the first day. __________________

08-22-09, 05:09 PM	#71
Kresge Engineer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The Motor City Posts: 209 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	I think there needs to be some serious beta testing and reviews of the full game before release to ensure that SH5 is in working order if we're expected to put our money out there in support of Ubi and Sh5. If we all run out and buy another unfinished package we've just encouraged them to produce more crap. I have faith in the dev team, but as in any business, you need to back up your product. We can't expect unpaid modders to volunteer their valuable time to fix problems in a commercial product. Their only aim should be to add something fun or increase the value to the community of subsimmers. Sure, I'll be buying it at release, but if they screw us again we need to screw them next time. SH2 was understandable in that the development was stalled numerous times as it was traded between companies. Development has been consistently with Ubi for 3-5, so it needs ot be an improvement, not just another version of the same theme. __________________ ". . . sailors do not fancy living underwater without breathing in sunshine occasionally." Commodore Joseph Smith commenting on the USS Monitor

08-22-09, 08:36 AM	#63
IanC Grey Wolf Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Running silent and deep Posts: 902 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	This is a little tricky, because the message alot of you are sending is; Thank you for making a SH5 and I will pre-order it no matter what it's like. On one hand this is a very encouraging message to the devs, but on the other... Something in the back of my mind thinks this might not be the best idea. I'm not sure... Anyways here's my message to Ubi; I really want to encourage the SH series, but I will not (cannot!) buy SH5 if wolfpacks and dynamic radio communications are missing (yes I know, those two things again! But they make all the difference for immersion and they're hardcoded and can't be modded). Besides, I'm too poor to dish out 60$ on a game that I would consider incomplete/missing key features.

08-22-09, 10:27 AM	#66
banjo Grey Wolf Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 762 Downloads: 55 Uploads: 0	I am happy to buy the game when released--my problem is I've not been able to purchase thru Subsim (or Ubisoft for that matter). That 2d2 site or whatever it is, will not recognize either of my email addresses (Juno and Yahoo) and will not allow my credit card. I know from posts that this happened to others also. I have no idea what the deal was (I purchase online routinely) but I hope it has changed. As a long time supporter of Subsim I'd prefer to buy here iff possible.

08-22-09, 02:37 PM	#68
TDK1044 Ocean Warrior Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 2,674 Downloads: 25 Uploads: 0	I think everyone is pretty much on the same page. We love the Devs. We acknowledge but are very cautious of the Ubisoft suits, and we understand that no game can be all things to all people. Let's not give the Silent Hunter 5 moderators a needlessly hard time. Instead, let's be positive and constructively critical when necessary, and let's purchase the new game through our own forum, using the link that Neal will provide, and by doing so support subsim and the continued development of the Silent Hunter franchise.

08-22-09, 05:53 PM	#72
CaptainHaplo Silent Hunter Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 4,404 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 0	Kresge - "Screw us again"?????? What are you talking about man? SH3 and SH4 are both solid, stable and highly enjoyable games. Plus they are moddable to some degree (though I would like to see SH5 be even more accessible). Sure they came out with bugs. Name one game released nowadays that doesnt. If they released a buggy game and refused to support it - then I would agree with your "again" comment. But on the contrary, UBI as a publisher and the Devs themselves have shown a commitment to fix the bugs that existed. I can understand if you don't like v1.0 builds. Fair enough - wait till its patched to a level you can accept. But the fact that its patched and supported as well as both SH3 and SH4 have been demonstrates your comment lacks an understanding of both the complexity of such software, and the limitations of the business market. Goldorak - Perhaps you didn't read the OP. Yes you have a right to grump IF and WHEN you put down your hard earned money and the product fails to deliver. However, the post was targetted to stopping the PRERELEASE whining and complaining by those who don't have their hands on anything but what to fuss about things they lack first hand knowledge of. Until you or any other person slaps down their cash for the game and can play it, all the complaining your doing is based off of what you "THINK" the game "MIGHT" be, and thus is counterproductive. No one here has ever said you can't complain about something, but at least be mature enough to only complain about what you KNOW and have PAID for. ***************************************** Now - with that out of the way, any chance Subsim could gather questions for the devs and see what questions we can get answered? Apparently the campaign is semi-dynamic - in that your actions have real impact. However, does that mean that you can turn the tide of the war? Are you locked into historical endings? Would there be a switch to allow for either a static "dynamic" campaign as in sh3/4 or a true "change the war" as the player sees fit? Will SH5 feature the Staff abilities found in 1.5? Will it be more fully fleshed, with a "Command AI" on both sides that could control and oversea the war, using the player initially as simply another boat, while increases in rank gain the player higher freedom of action or larger input on the HQ? Will the AI, aircraft, ship, sensor and weapon data be more accessible for modding? Will SH5 impliment realistic sinkings out of the box - bouyancy vs a pure "hitpoint" system? Will keelbreaking magnetic shots be modeled accurately? *Modders got close, but another out of the box function? Milch Cows and Wolfpacks? Truly "unique" ships that don't continue to spawn? Optional realistic crew and captain rotations? __________________ Good Hunting! Captain Haplo

08-22-09, 07:00 PM	#74
RickC Sniper Undetectable Join Date: Sep 1999 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,221 Downloads: 132 Uploads: 0	I am a realist. I don't expect a perfect product right out the door. I don't think I've ever seen one. I DO however, see a track record from the Romanian team that tells me they'll give us the best product they are able to under the usual constraints placed on them by Ubisoft. Besides, a decent subsim is something I'd buy over any other games anyway. Sh3 and sh4 were well deserving of my $$ and i expect sh5 should be as well. Sh5 looks like it will be a bit of a different experience, and frankly I am ready for something like that. __________________ Support Subsim http://www.subsim.com/store.html

08-22-09, 07:14 PM	#75
KG_Jag Bosun Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New Braunfels, TX & Reno, NV Posts: 67 Downloads: 35 Uploads: 0	I am way too old and experienced to buy a pig in a poke. Here's hoping SH 5 is well done and a big success. Still I will not buy a game simply because it is called SH [insert number here]. Not only may you be disappointed, but telling a company in advance that you will buy a product no matter what can reward bad/undesirable to you behavior. Quality of the game is important. What the game is and is not are important. The DRM used is important. I don't want to reward a gaming house and its developer with my purchase dollars for making something I don't want. An example of blind pre-ordering of a game based on a name and company reputation (at the time) that left a very bad taste in many mouths occurred two years ago when Battlefront released Combat Mission Shock Force (the first--and still only) game using their then brand new CM x 2 game engine. All CM x 1 engine games were well done and playable only in WeGo. But when CMSF came out it was a buggy incomplete piece of crap. Further, it had been designed as a single player RT game--with WeGo bolted on and largely untested. I'll wait and see; read the reviews--especially those from real gamers; and hope for the best, but with a realistic eye.