Guess the country: Spain and the struggle of Catalonia for freedom

[Hitman]

I'm sorry if it sounded that way Manos, it was not my intention. I just was a bit annoyed about having to explain things again when I had elaborated in many earlier posts. With Skybird it has got to a point where you hit the wall, you give explanations, information, etc and you find the other guy just refuses to learn something different than the pre-conceived idea he has in his mind, for which he is paying selective attention (Only notices or understands whatever info is in line with his previous idea). It is the same with the separatists, they are no longer reasoning but just acting ruled by their guts, no matter if you hosw them they are wrong in one or the other assumption (Not saying thy are wrong in everything, of course, they have their point too and I do recognize that).

From Nikita and people the like I already expected it, but not from Skybird. It has been quite dissapointing, but then again, people change ...

[Skybird]

The problem I have with you, Hitman, is that you present your views as the final word of truth on things, while quite some of what you say, is different or in opposition to what the media news reports or what the public available historical timelines describe. If I see cheap rhetoric shots fired at me, implications and words put in my mouth, and things I said several times getting ignored and even treated as if I never said them, which is especially about the majority versus minority opinion in catalonia, then i take that a little bit queer for sure and I certainly refuse to base on you as the only source of "valid" information on the matter. I have limited my opinions and conclusions with severla "if true"s and "if it really woukd be so"s, only to see oyu turning words in my mouth about majprities owning minorities or the the other way around. Still you owe us a pragmatic and working alternative to this prnciple by wich we usually decide an issue in a vote: we call it majority vote, and we tend to go with the majority. I did say from beginning on that Puidgement de fatco has not br0ought a majrity of voters behind him in that poll, still you complain that I shoudl have said the minority shall own the majority - and then, in an assumption that a voting would form a majprity ofr indepenbdence, you most naturall claimed that the majoirty shall not rule the way then, and you impy by that that instead the majority has to follow the oppising will of the minority. Becasue the minority wants what you want. Thats a bit too much flexibility in your arguments, for my taste.

Both you and Nikita, you are personally heavily emotionally involved, and that is why I take what you say with caution and allow other sources to drip into my thinking as well. Historical assessments of events and eras can vary significantl, depending on the author you look at, and opinions as well. The more often I see different sources painting somehtign in the same light, the higher I think chances are that they may have gotten somethign right. This doe snot rule out that they are all wrong, and the lonely voice in the desert is right. But then you have to be prgmataic,k else you end up being deadlocked in place, unable to move at all. You make a bet, like always when you follow simple probabilities basing on majorities.

It is clear where your sympathies are, and nobody criticises you for them being what they are. But I would be thankful if you could tro to leave out these childish personal jabs at me. You do not really impress or hurt me with them, I am too long on subsim and know the game in general topics too well as if that could still happen, but I admit it is a bit tiresome.

---

News over here now says that Puidgemont will be allowed to participate in the planned upcoming elections. In the last days it was repeatedly said that independentists parties would be banned from participating. I wonder what has changed? Do they fear violent clashes if they ban them, or arrest Puidgemont?

Anyhow, the referendum had a turnout of 43%, 90% of these said they want independence, that means de factor just 40%, roughly, of those who were eligible to vote, took the time to indeed side up with Puidgemont. Thats why already before Rajoy I mentioned to have elections in parliament to have its composition updated, and then immediately let them vote on independence. On the other hand, during the vote on independence on friday, the opposition walked out, which is a silly move, but it allows this conclusion: if they would have been enough to stop the bill, they would have stayed and prevented it by voting against it, so in parliament Puidgemont obviously has had a majority for sure. Madrid obviously hopes that this majority will falter in case of new elections.

Majority decisions should be majority decisions, for pragnatic rasons, for they are this: tie breakers. In earlier times, such situations that could not be solved by reaosn and arugment and exhanging of views, were solved by duels (that is why duel pistols have a wanted lack of precision and usually n aiming aids: the element of random chance was wanted, so that not just sports training could not have an all-deciding powerful influence on the outcome). The need may be given to simply get a decision, either this or that one. It might be hurting and not wanted to get close calls like the vote on Brexit, still a majority is a mjroity, you have to accept a treshhold, else you end up with results being debated and claism rising that you need a a 66% of votes to make the majority valid, and if that is given and in favour of the unwanted result, the next one comes and demands that tis decisions weighs so heavy that only a 75% majority qualifies, and so on.

The Catalonians are two fold, ther eis the ethnic subgroup that are Catalonian by ethnicity and culture, and then ther eis just the adininstrational term, residents that moved in and now just happen to live in Catalonia, but are not Catalonian by ethnicity and culture. I do not know how much of them there are, but assuming by exmaples from other palces I assume the the thnic Catalonians by now are a minorit yin their own country, however, it is and histirically was their own country for sure. I have no real idea how to solve that dilemma. One voice says "its theirs", the other says "time moved on and their ancestory allowed it to get traded away centuries ago." I think I tend to go with the latter, but that is in violation with some key principles of libertarian and natural law. But I have decided my smyathies on many other cases like this as well. I woudl not accept the Itlains today trying to reinstall the Roman empire, Germany demanding back Eastern Prussian territories, or the Arabs demanding back the trerritoiy now called Israel (and if you go futher back in times, claims for possession of a place will constantly change anyway). So yes, best is to be pragmatic over Catalonia, and have a majority vote of ethnic and non-ethnic Catalonian residents decide. But only the residents - other parts of Spain have no claim to make here, its is the Catalonians' decision alone whether they still want to be governed by Spain, and to what degree. Their decision alone, and nobody else's, all others are outsiders in this.

[Hitman]

you present your views as the final word of truth on things, while quite some of what you say, is different or in opposition to what the media news reports or what the public available historical timelines describe ... I certainly refuse to base on you as the only source of "valid" information on the matter

I never pretended to have the final word of truth, and some messages back I clearly stated to mapuc that there is no fundamental right or wrong in this, but instead different principles and points of view. A different matter is when you see a clear intoxication caused by providing information limited to some aspects of something, be it history or the current situation in Catalonia. I offered many links and explanations about some facts of history of Spain that have been intentionally mutilated or silenced to support the view of nationalists. And I'm talking about facts that are actually indiferent to the history of Spain, as they happened before the creation of Spain as a state. On top of that, I recommended the reading of authors as Henry Kamen, a notorious british hispanist that has been living in Barcelona for many years, and who can offer a much more impartial view of things.

Still you owe us a pragmatic and working alternative to this prnciple by wich we usually decide an issue in a vote: we call it majority vote, and we tend to go with the majority ... Majority decisions should be majority decisions, for pragnatic rasons, for they are this: tie breakers. In earlier times, such situations that could not be solved by reaosn and arugment and exhanging of views, were solved by duels (that is why duel pistols have a wanted lack of precision and usually n aiming aids: the element of random chance was wanted, so that not just sports training could not have an all-deciding powerful influence on the outcome). The need may be given to simply get a decision, either this or that one. It might be hurting and not wanted to get close calls like the vote on Brexit, still a majority is a mjroity, you have to accept a treshhold, else you end up with results being debated and claism rising that you need a a 66% of votes to make the majority valid, and if that is given and in favour of the unwanted result, the next one comes and demands that tis decisions weighs so heavy that only a 75% majority qualifies, and so on.

A democracy is not simply the rule of majority, because that would be a tyranny of the majority. We have had enough examples in history of a majority opressing a minority, or owning them as you rightfully say. A real democracy instead comprises three separate things:

A) The frame in which the whole community lives, which has to comply with certain principles that guarantee freedom and rights for minorities (So that a majority can't opress them)

B) The ordinary administration and decission that doesn't touch that frame, and where the majority certainly rules. As one can easily imagine, the majority can't modify the frame (Constitution) by a majority of 1/2+1 vote, as otherwise it would not comply with A). So you need reinforced majorities for changing basic principles of the frame, and minorities can't be exclued. Many constitutions require majorities of 2/3 or 3/5 to make changes to them, as well as referendums, and

C) A set of legal procedures that have to be respected for the decissions that affect A) or B), constituting a guarantee for everyone.

It is too easy to isolate a certain amount of people and create an artificial majority based on whatever common bonds, but that is not democracy. Neither is it to pretend to change by a simple majority the frame that affects many more people, minorities or not. I do not consider that catalans have any particular historic or actual right to create a state of their own, but even if they did they certainly would not be entitled to create it with a referendum where 1/2+1 persons vote for independence. Because that essentially implies making a substantial change in the existing situation for the majority and for the minority, and that would require:

1) The vote of all the people affected by the change (The whole Spain)
2) A qualified majority as it implies a substantial alteration of the frame
3) Following the proper procedures

What you can't do in the XXI century in the western world even if you consider that only catalan residents shall vote is to pretend that the Constitution of Spain does not exist and can be ignored. No matter if you have or have not history backing up a claim of sovereignty, you can't do it outside the frame in which you live - because in that case you are also legitimating anybody else to ignore laws and get away with it. As I already said, the spanish Constitution can be changed, but it was never promoted by nationalists even if they could have.

Populism nowadays in the whole world pushes for doing exactly that, claiming that a majority can't be held by laws or constitutions, but that is effectively the destruction of democracy instead of its effective implementation - because it entitles majorities to basically opress and rule over minorities with no limits at all. It is thus a false assumption that a majority has always and just for being such a democratic legitimation to their decissions.

The Catalonians are two fold, ther eis the ethnic subgroup that are Catalonian by ethnicity and culture, and then ther eis just the adininstrational term, residents that moved in and now just happen to live in Catalonia, but are not Catalonian by ethnicity and culture. I do not know how much of them there are, but assuming by exmaples from other palces I assume the the thnic Catalonians by now are a minorit yin their own country, however, it is and histirically was their own country for sure.

I know of no catalan nationalist that tries to support their claims based on the ethnic or racial argument (Unlike the basques) but instead in that of language and culture. So there is no real dilemma in that regard for you, as not even the affected persons have it. Funnily, that also basically discards their claim (And it is probably why you consider the ethnicality important) because what they are essentially saying is: We do not pretend to be the heirs of the former catalans, but just those who occupied their place, and found these rights here. Which, following your example about the roman empire, would be as if the modern italian roman citizens would pretend to claim it back.

News over here now says that Puidgemont will be allowed to participate in the planned upcoming elections. In the last days it was repeatedly said that independentists parties would be banned from participating. I wonder what has changed? Do they fear violent clashes if they ban them, or arrest Puidgemont?

Nothing at all has changed. You need a court decission to prevent someone from concurring to elections, be it a person or a party. The illegalization of a party can't be done based on ideology, but instead only based on it supporting the use of violence - which is what was done with the political arm of the terrorist band ETA some years ago. A separatist party was then created that did not match the requirements for illegalization, and it has been allowed to concur to elections and is in fact governing in many places.

They just dropped unfounded claims about that, in the usual separatist game of intoxicating.

[ikalugin]

[Skybird]

Rajoy did not lose the elections in Catalonia - he got shattered into pieces. Madrid got the return bill of its imperial attitude and stubborn policy. The bid by Rajoy to get rid of the problem by scoring a pleasant election result, has completely vanished into empty air. Resistance to the Spaniards now is even more bitter than before.

Madrid played all the wrong cards and performed in the worst way possible. And this is the bill for it.

[Jimbuna]

A little progress perhaps?

Spain's Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy has rebuffed calls by Catalonia's ousted leader, Carles Puigdemont, to meet for new talks outside the country.

Mr Rajoy said he would negotiate with whoever became the new head of the Catalan government but they would have to take up their post in Catalonia.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-42458717

[Skybird]

Spain has withdrawn only the international warrant, not the national warrant. The moment Puidgemont lands at Barcelona International, he could be arrested. And after the past manouvers by Rajoy, Puidgemont certainly has no reason to trust Rajoy at all.

Anyhow, I think this election result and the deepening of the crisis it has brought could very well mean the beginning of the end of Rajoy. Which does not mean that solutions become easier afterwards - there seem to be even more hawkish imperialists in Madrid than him.

[STEED]

Another election within six months.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Spain has withdrawn only the international warrant, not the national warrant. The moment Puidgemont lands at Barcelona International, he could be arrested. And after the past manouvers by Rajoy, Puidgemont certainly has no reason to trust Rajoy at all.

Anyhow, I think this election result and the deepening of the crisis it has brought could very well mean the beginning of the end of Rajoy. Which does not mean that solutions become easier afterwards - there seem to be even more hawkish imperialists in Madrid than him.

True that, this is just the beginning of what will most likely turn into a long drawn out acrimonious matter.

[Hitman]

And now officially, TABARNIA has started its way to independence from Catalonia. What started as a satyrical movement is becominga serious projhect to divide Catalonia inside Spain, as Tabarnia groups areas from both Tarragona and Barcelona, provinces of Catalonia that:

1) Are economically more powerful than the poor, rural Lleida and Girona

2) Suffer economical deficit against Lleida and Girona, being actually owned and milked by those other poorer rural areas

3) Want to remain in Spain

4) Want to separate from Catalonia to create a new community inside Spain

I'm sure that Nikita and Skybird will support this claim, as those citizens are held against their will by a majority of people in the rural poor provinces, milking them. Free Tabarnia!!!

[Skybird]

If indeed the majority of the natives want it, then I will not argue against it. I may scratch my head, but its their internal affair.

You know the mantra by now, Hitman. Solidarity that gets blackmailed, is not solidarity, but blackmailing, enforced solidarity is no solidarity, but abuse. Both is subjugation by violence.

Meanwhile Rajoy showed by his statements in past weeks that he has learned nothing from 2017's experiences. Idiot.

[Hitman]

You won't scratch your head for long if you think carefully about it. What happens is that in Catalonia there is a majority claiming for independence from Spain on the basis of being plundered, yet when you look closer too see who those are sociologically you realize it's actually the poorest people in that society, concentrated in both inner, poorer provinces (Lleida and Girona). So what they are essentially saying is, we want to plunder the rich catalans ourselves, instead of the poors from other regions of Spain doing it. Of course the reaction of the richer regions is that they don't want to be plundered and "gleichschaltet" by those poorer regions of Catalonia, and therefore the start of a movement to make a separate autonomous region.

It's again the enforced solidarity thing (On which I agree with you), only this time it's internal between catalans. The richer ones see themselves outside the EU and plundered by the independentists (The majority of whom are socialists or even anarchists, as the CUP is) and obviously are horrified at the prospect.

[Skybird]

I find it difficult to reply or to debate this with you, since over here in Germany there simply is no newscoverage and media inpt on the things you say are happening inside Catalonia. They only report on the confrontation between Catalonia and Spain and Barcelona and Madrid. I cannot assess and form an opinion on your descriptions, therefore, sorry.