First sim?

Gargamel · 01-03-11, 11:37 PM

Hi guys!

I love what the community has done for SH3 and it's progeny. I love the freeness of the world and the sims "realness" (I know, I know).

That said, the idea of a tank sim intrigues me. I'd like to get one that's frequently replayable, realistic, has a good campaign mode, along with single missions, and is cheap. I'm not a fan overly arcadish stuff, but that's not too big of a turn off.

Which ones would you recommend?

TBH, I havent read a lot of stuff in here (probably should have

) and have no real clue what all the different versions are. I do like the WW2 type stuff, but anything is okay too.

Maybe shoulda titled this MWM looking for tanks sim to enjoy long walks on the beach?

Sledgehammer427 · 01-04-11, 01:28 AM

It seriously depends on what you are looking for and how much you are willing to pay.

For WWII, you have a choice between Steel Fury (SF)
and T-34 Vs. Tiger.

T-34 vs Tiger, isn't very replayable, it comes with 12 missions, 6 for each side. they are all scripted, and it's only real saving graces are Zeewolf's mods and it's graphics.
Zeewolf's mods are costly. even though the games in the bargain bin, if you can find a copy, Zee's mod will set you back 60 dollars for the first year. but thats access to all of the mods he releases and yes, it costs less to renew your subscription. you can check the Kharkov thread sticked at the top to follow development.

the other option for WWII is Steel Fury, this is more playable in that the maps are large and it's quite realistic. all of the bugs have been worked out for the most part and theres a huge selection of mods. the current one is Steel Panzer 1.5 (beta) which adds a whole lot of playable tanks with more planned to be added before the official release, that is, the official release on the sukhoi forums. it's hard to find as well, but should be cheap and is well worth the price. There is a resources thread stickied at the top that I update as soon as new mods or information comes out

______________________________________

now, the devs that put out steel fury are coming out with a cold war-era tanksim called Steel Armor - Blaze of War, stickied at the top of the page.
Still in development though

Now, Skybird can come her and clarify a little more on this, but the benchmark tanksim, which all other tanksims are thankfully not judged but aspire to be.
Steel Beasts Pro Personal edition. it's modern but it's a pared down full-on military siluation, used by...militaries.
The only issue would be that it costs 125 dollars. it's apparently the best tactical simulation money can buy. eSim games knew there wouldn't be a big market, so that's why it's exorbitantly priced compared to many other computer games.

I own both TvsT and Steel Fury, Steel Fury is heavily modded but TvsT is mostly stock. I enjoy both, and as I said, Skybird knows more about Steel Beasts so I hope he can come along and offer more information.

Skybird · 01-04-11, 05:35 AM

Thanks, Sledge. ON SBP I refer to the video section referred to in the SBP resources thread. The sim is almost identical with the stuff used by a dozen national Western militaries who do not invest so much into hardware simulators. They wanted it for training fire control, and managing small tank units in battle. That'S what decides the way it is, that' the priority in it'S design decisions. Focus of battle scaling ranges from platoon to company level, but you can also have full batallions and even brigade sized forces. It is easy to use and difficult to master. The realism on firecontrol systems is enormous. The challenge however lies in mastering formation coordination, making use of the terrain, and tactics. Compared to what you get, the price of that for two normal games is cheap. Support is top, developement is ongoing, with upgrades showing up every year - since early 2006.

If realism and tactics is what you want, SBP is the way to go. In the resource thread you also find my essay on how to use it in WWII-style.

This board already has plenty of topics related to SBP. All what you could want to know is already there.

frinik · 01-04-11, 06:31 AM

Gargamel from what you said in your message , you wnat a game at a reasonable price, with a good number of campaigns-single missions and mods and you´re not a hard-core tank simmer then I think Sf is the way to go for you.SB is indeed the best but it´s for afficionados and it´s expensive so unless you are planning to invest the time and dedicate yourself fully to that game then it´s not for you.TvsT without ZeeWolf´s mods is not worth buying as it has little replayability and bugs and flaws.ZeeWolf´s mod offer more variety but they vost$ 50( if you join before end of Feb or $ 60 and every year you have to renew at reduced cost.SF

As it seems that you´d like to test the waters, so to speak, before plunging to see if you like tank simming then get SF.It´s cheaper than the alternatives has lots of free mods and user/made missions and will allow you perhaps to discover a new passion.Then once you´re really committed later on you might consider trying/buying SB.

SF has a free demo which you might want to download and play.TvsT used to have one but not sure if it´s still available.

Skybird might tell you if there´s one for SB( I kind of doubt though).

I own all 3 and SB is very immersive and good, solid but it's a training software turned game thus much more demanding but undeniably the best.Sim/wise SF is better for casual simmers or those you can't devote that much time or money.Plus it has lots of free mods and user/made missions.

Cheers

Skybird · 01-04-11, 07:01 AM

No SBP demo, and not planned, that's why I recommend to watch a couple of videos, also MP videos.

I want to comment on the price again, although I sound like a sales director.

Including the first SB, I am constantly playing SB since roughly one decade now. SBP PE since almost five years. I remember how much money I have wasted in my younger years, in the late 80s and thorughout the 90s, for games that lasted some months, if I was unlucky just weeks. Compared to the fortune I spent there, SBP with constant addiction since ten years is cheap with a price equalling three cheap or 2 new full priced games that just lasts much shorter for the most. The game-play-for-the-buck ratio is extremely positive for SBP.

And although I do not want to start a price war here, and no rivalry between different products and different authors, I just point out that the price for the latest version of SBP equals that of two years of Zeewolf mods. If you think that people having TvT should buy Zeewolf's abonemment, then you can hardly argue against the price for SBP - it is cheaper after 2 years.

Several hundred missions are available, both SP and MP. Thinking that the claim of being a training software would go at the cost of playability or accessability for casual gamers, would be misleading, the sim is easy to run and does not handle much different than SF - but offers more depth, realism, a better AI and more diverse mission layouts and battle scales, from briagdes fighting over 400 km2 to platoons moving down a single valley against occasional single resistence. There is much more diversity. The other major difference is that you need to do much more tactical planning ahead of your missions, usually - else you get eaten without even knowing what hit you. Rambos stand chanceless here.

Video-Links:

33lima · 01-04-11, 06:05 PM

If your are prepared to tolerate graphics that are somewhat outdated by Steel Fury Kharkov 1942 standards but are perfectly serviceable with user mods applied, you might also like to try Panzer Elite, preferably with the PE3 mod available here:

http://panzerelite.yuku.com/topic/482

With Panzer Elite - get the Gold edition which has a basic set of user mods on a bonus CD - you can command, drive and gun a huge variety of WW2 tanks in campaigns and missions covering British, US, German and Soviet armies, in France 1940 + 1944, Ostfront 1942-45, N. Africa 1941-43, and Italy 1943-44. Despite rather poor graphics without the mods, it has an amazing set of features including nice little details like the ability for a tank commander to indicate and hand off targets to your gunner, the facility to call in artillery or mortar fire missions, good representation of radio and intercom traffic, a simple but reasonably effective method of commanding your tank and your platoon while staying in the 3d world, and rather good animated & voiced mission briefings. Was far and away the best WW2 tank sim of the era [compared to iPanzer 44 or Panzer Commander] and a second only to the original Steel Beasts as the best tank sim, period. Even today, it's still one of the very best tank sims you can play. Sure, even the modded graphics and its and environmental sounds are well behind SF'42 and the wingman AI is sometimes a bit weak but in terms of functionality, replayability and sheer scale it's way ahead of it, and even further ahead of TvT.

Here are some vids:

The basic game you can get on eBay or probably at one of those download sites for older games. NOT to be confused with the arcade Panzer Elite Action (which has one or two adherents, tho].

Other alternatives might be the WW2 mods for Operation Flashpoint or the like, tho not really tank sims either.

Scotty · 01-04-11, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gargamel

Hi guys!

I love what the community has done for SH3 and it's progeny. I love the freeness of the world and the sims "realness" (I know, I know).

That said, the idea of a tank sim intrigues me. I'd like to get one that's frequently replayable, realistic, has a good campaign mode, along with single missions, and is cheap. I'm not a fan overly arcadish stuff, but that's not too big of a turn off.

Which ones would you recommend?

TBH, I havent read a lot of stuff in here (probably should have

) and have no real clue what all the different versions are. I do like the WW2 type stuff, but anything is okay too.

Maybe shoulda titled this MWM looking for tanks sim to enjoy long walks on the beach?

There is T34 vs Tiger and Steel Fury 1942 for WW2 tank sims current, I know a lot of people who still llike Panzer Elite, I have it, as well as Panzer Commander.... Panzer commander is light years ahead of PE for realism..
PE has slight better graphics, but the gunners is as fake as can be.. you can shoot a tank 900 meters away, and never have to lead off.. ther is no ballistics flight time... in Panzer Commander the gunnery is much more real, you have to lead off shot at moving targets etc..
These are older sims from,1998-1999..

the best WW2 sim now would be Steel fury 1942 for realism although with Zeewolf's $60 mod T34 vs Tiger is not too bad, but nothing like Steel Fury.. lots of mods being made for steel fury.. like most games/sims.. mods are all free, and all great

good luck

frinik · 01-05-11, 08:47 AM

Sorry Scotty to contradict you but PE has ballistic flight time incorporated for quite some time now thanks to the work of BritAldo44.Moreover in almost every aspect PE is a much better sim than Panzer Commander.The proof is that after 12 years it´s got a very active modding community , it´s own forum and every aspect of the game has been improved.Not tomention dozens of new maps, missions and scenarios. On the other hand who plays Panzer Commander nowadays????I haven´t heard anybody in the last 5 years.I have played both and it´s not contest.

But I assume you would want to aply the latest so PE would be off your list.

Otherwise in terms of modern tank sims only T72 Balkans on Fire-Iron Warriors is cheap but with only the T34, T55 and T62 playable and very small scale missions it ain´t very satisfying.

Scotty · 01-05-11, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frinik

Sorry Scotty to contradict you but PE has ballistic flight time incorporated for quite some time now thanks to the work of BritAldo44.Moreover in almost every aspect PE is a much better sim than Panzer Commander.The proof is that after 12 years it´s got a very active modding community , it´s own forum and every aspect of the game has been improved.Not tomention dozens of new maps, missions and scenarios. On the other hand who plays Panzer Commander nowadays????I haven´t heard anybody in the last 5 years.I have played both and it´s not contest.

But I assume you would want to aply the latest so PE would be off your list.

Otherwise in terms of modern tank sims only T72 Balkans on Fire-Iron Warriors is cheap but with only the T34, T55 and T62 playable and very small scale missions it ain´t very satisfying.

Well that shows ya how out of touch I am then, I have not played PE in a good 6-7 years or maybe more... the ballistics part is what turned me off the most... I still have that old red box up in attic heck I may dust it off just for fun... Yet with SF1942, it is maybe too late..

Thank you for giving me this info, and thus so I will at least not give outdated info to would be tank simmers.

Yeah, no one plays PzC anymore for sure. it was surpassed a year after it came out 1998 by PE in 1999.. I remember it well..

have a good one

33lima · 01-05-11, 04:43 PM

yeah the first video link I posted shows Panzer Elite gunnery with time of flight added, he's just firing at open countryside but at least you can see the tracer trajectory.

PzC I quite liked too but the lack of tracers spoiled its gunnery for me, even vanilla PE's instantaneous white puff trails looked better. Didn't mind PzC's lack of infantry much but the fact that the ONLY other kinds of troops in the game were AT guns in silly bunkers, was a big minus too. Plus many of the tank 3d models were poor - Sherman 76s and Fireflies were just 75mm turrets with long barrels, that sort of thing. PE even out of the box had so much more and was a lot more realistic in nearly every respect.

Functionally, Panzer Elite in its current state is still one of the very best tank sims you can play, just as modded Red Baron 3d and EAW are still some of the best combat flight sims available, such are their basic strengths, notwithstanding superior graphics, AI, flight models or whatever.

Scotty · 01-05-11, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 33lima

yeah the first video link I posted shows Panzer Elite gunnery with time of flight added, he's just firing at open countryside but at least you can see the tracer trajectory.

PzC I quite liked too but the lack of tracers spoiled its gunnery for me, even vanilla PE's instantaneous white puff trails looked better. Didn't mind PzC's lack of infantry much but the fact that the ONLY other kinds of troops in the game were AT guns in silly bunkers, was a big minus too. Plus many of the tank 3d models were poor - Sherman 76s and Fireflies were just 75mm turrets with long barrels, that sort of thing. PE even out of the box had so much more and was a lot more realistic in nearly every respect.

Functionally, Panzer Elite in its current state is still one of the very best tank sims you can play, just as modded Red Baron 3d and EAW are still some of the best combat flight sims available, such are their basic strengths, notwithstanding superior graphics, AI, flight models or whatever.

I would not call PE out of the box better.. the gunnery was more fake than any arcade game.. I mean instant flight time brought me away from it... I like the challnge to have to lead off on something that is 700 meters away... kind of like REAL life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not point at it, adjust for spin and CLICK=DEAD instantly..
Heck, Battlezone of 1980 by Atari was even more realistic.. you did have flight time (slow, but it had it) in it.

The infantry if you want to call it that.. looked like cardboard figures moving around the battlefield.. I mean the enemy in Wolfenstein 3D of 1991 looked much more real.. almost made a whole decade earlier.

So I would not agree with you about "out of the box" PE!

I reinstalled PE some years later 2003-2005, but never seen a flight time mod then, I eventually gave up. Also Panzer Commander would not run on a Barton core CPU of the time later I figured out a CPU slow down utility helped big time.. The blocky forrests were hard to get used to.

As far as Panzer Elite being the most realistic tank sim NOW??? From the mods you guys tell me, you may be right..

Sometimes out of the box sims are worse than others, but modded, the one that was lesser, ended up the best.
Seems PE has come a long way.. like I said, thanks for enlighten me on this.
maybe it should Be Steel Fury Kharkov 1942 vs Panzer Elite (and not T34-vs-Tiger)
----------------------

Red Baron 3D and EAW, used to play those A LOT..even online some.. what has happened with them in the past 6-7 years.?? how are they with mods vs say Il-2 1946 with mods?

later

01-03-11, 11:37 PM	#1
Gargamel Lucky Sailor Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Rome Posts: 4,272 Downloads: 81 Uploads: 0	First sim? Hi guys! I love what the community has done for SH3 and it's progeny. I love the freeness of the world and the sims "realness" (I know, I know). That said, the idea of a tank sim intrigues me. I'd like to get one that's frequently replayable, realistic, has a good campaign mode, along with single missions, and is cheap. I'm not a fan overly arcadish stuff, but that's not too big of a turn off. Which ones would you recommend? TBH, I havent read a lot of stuff in here (probably should have ) and have no real clue what all the different versions are. I do like the WW2 type stuff, but anything is okay too. Maybe shoulda titled this MWM looking for tanks sim to enjoy long walks on the beach? __________________ Luck is a residue of Design.

01-04-11, 01:28 AM	#2
Sledgehammer427 PacWagon Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Drinking coffee and staring at trees in Massachusetts Posts: 2,901 Downloads: 280 Uploads: 0	It seriously depends on what you are looking for and how much you are willing to pay. For WWII, you have a choice between Steel Fury (SF) and T-34 Vs. Tiger. T-34 vs Tiger, isn't very replayable, it comes with 12 missions, 6 for each side. they are all scripted, and it's only real saving graces are Zeewolf's mods and it's graphics. Zeewolf's mods are costly. even though the games in the bargain bin, if you can find a copy, Zee's mod will set you back 60 dollars for the first year. but thats access to all of the mods he releases and yes, it costs less to renew your subscription. you can check the Kharkov thread sticked at the top to follow development. the other option for WWII is Steel Fury, this is more playable in that the maps are large and it's quite realistic. all of the bugs have been worked out for the most part and theres a huge selection of mods. the current one is Steel Panzer 1.5 (beta) which adds a whole lot of playable tanks with more planned to be added before the official release, that is, the official release on the sukhoi forums. it's hard to find as well, but should be cheap and is well worth the price. There is a resources thread stickied at the top that I update as soon as new mods or information comes out ______________________________________ now, the devs that put out steel fury are coming out with a cold war-era tanksim called Steel Armor - Blaze of War, stickied at the top of the page. Still in development though Now, Skybird can come her and clarify a little more on this, but the benchmark tanksim, which all other tanksims are thankfully not judged but aspire to be. Steel Beasts Pro Personal edition. it's modern but it's a pared down full-on military siluation, used by...militaries. The only issue would be that it costs 125 dollars. it's apparently the best tactical simulation money can buy. eSim games knew there wouldn't be a big market, so that's why it's exorbitantly priced compared to many other computer games. I own both TvsT and Steel Fury, Steel Fury is heavily modded but TvsT is mostly stock. I enjoy both, and as I said, Skybird knows more about Steel Beasts so I hope he can come along and offer more information. __________________ Cold Waters Voice Crew - Fire Control Officer Cmdr O. Myers - C/O USS Nautilus (SS-168) 114,000 tons sunk - 4 Spec Ops completed V-boat Nutcase - Need supplies? Japanese garrison on a small island in the way? Just give us a call! D4C!

01-04-11, 05:35 AM	#3
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,522 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	Thanks, Sledge. ON SBP I refer to the video section referred to in the SBP resources thread. The sim is almost identical with the stuff used by a dozen national Western militaries who do not invest so much into hardware simulators. They wanted it for training fire control, and managing small tank units in battle. That'S what decides the way it is, that' the priority in it'S design decisions. Focus of battle scaling ranges from platoon to company level, but you can also have full batallions and even brigade sized forces. It is easy to use and difficult to master. The realism on firecontrol systems is enormous. The challenge however lies in mastering formation coordination, making use of the terrain, and tactics. Compared to what you get, the price of that for two normal games is cheap. Support is top, developement is ongoing, with upgrades showing up every year - since early 2006. If realism and tactics is what you want, SBP is the way to go. In the resource thread you also find my essay on how to use it in WWII-style. This board already has plenty of topics related to SBP. All what you could want to know is already there. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

01-04-11, 06:31 AM	#4
frinik Grey Wolf Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 897 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Choice of SIM Gargamel from what you said in your message , you wnat a game at a reasonable price, with a good number of campaigns-single missions and mods and you´re not a hard-core tank simmer then I think Sf is the way to go for you.SB is indeed the best but it´s for afficionados and it´s expensive so unless you are planning to invest the time and dedicate yourself fully to that game then it´s not for you.TvsT without ZeeWolf´s mods is not worth buying as it has little replayability and bugs and flaws.ZeeWolf´s mod offer more variety but they vost$ 50( if you join before end of Feb or $ 60 and every year you have to renew at reduced cost.SF As it seems that you´d like to test the waters, so to speak, before plunging to see if you like tank simming then get SF.It´s cheaper than the alternatives has lots of free mods and user/made missions and will allow you perhaps to discover a new passion.Then once you´re really committed later on you might consider trying/buying SB. SF has a free demo which you might want to download and play.TvsT used to have one but not sure if it´s still available. Skybird might tell you if there´s one for SB( I kind of doubt though). I own all 3 and SB is very immersive and good, solid but it's a training software turned game thus much more demanding but undeniably the best.Sim/wise SF is better for casual simmers or those you can't devote that much time or money.Plus it has lots of free mods and user/made missions. Cheers

01-04-11, 07:01 AM	#5
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,522 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	No SBP demo, and not planned, that's why I recommend to watch a couple of videos, also MP videos. I want to comment on the price again, although I sound like a sales director. Including the first SB, I am constantly playing SB since roughly one decade now. SBP PE since almost five years. I remember how much money I have wasted in my younger years, in the late 80s and thorughout the 90s, for games that lasted some months, if I was unlucky just weeks. Compared to the fortune I spent there, SBP with constant addiction since ten years is cheap with a price equalling three cheap or 2 new full priced games that just lasts much shorter for the most. The game-play-for-the-buck ratio is extremely positive for SBP. And although I do not want to start a price war here, and no rivalry between different products and different authors, I just point out that the price for the latest version of SBP equals that of two years of Zeewolf mods. If you think that people having TvT should buy Zeewolf's abonemment, then you can hardly argue against the price for SBP - it is cheaper after 2 years. Several hundred missions are available, both SP and MP. Thinking that the claim of being a training software would go at the cost of playability or accessability for casual gamers, would be misleading, the sim is easy to run and does not handle much different than SF - but offers more depth, realism, a better AI and more diverse mission layouts and battle scales, from briagdes fighting over 400 km2 to platoons moving down a single valley against occasional single resistence. There is much more diversity. The other major difference is that you need to do much more tactical planning ahead of your missions, usually - else you get eaten without even knowing what hit you. Rambos stand chanceless here. Video-Links: __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert. Last edited by Skybird; 01-04-11 at 07:30 AM.

01-04-11, 06:05 PM	#6
33lima Planesman Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Belfast, NI Posts: 199 Downloads: 27 Uploads: 0	If your are prepared to tolerate graphics that are somewhat outdated by Steel Fury Kharkov 1942 standards but are perfectly serviceable with user mods applied, you might also like to try Panzer Elite, preferably with the PE3 mod available here: http://panzerelite.yuku.com/topic/482 With Panzer Elite - get the Gold edition which has a basic set of user mods on a bonus CD - you can command, drive and gun a huge variety of WW2 tanks in campaigns and missions covering British, US, German and Soviet armies, in France 1940 + 1944, Ostfront 1942-45, N. Africa 1941-43, and Italy 1943-44. Despite rather poor graphics without the mods, it has an amazing set of features including nice little details like the ability for a tank commander to indicate and hand off targets to your gunner, the facility to call in artillery or mortar fire missions, good representation of radio and intercom traffic, a simple but reasonably effective method of commanding your tank and your platoon while staying in the 3d world, and rather good animated & voiced mission briefings. Was far and away the best WW2 tank sim of the era [compared to iPanzer 44 or Panzer Commander] and a second only to the original Steel Beasts as the best tank sim, period. Even today, it's still one of the very best tank sims you can play. Sure, even the modded graphics and its and environmental sounds are well behind SF'42 and the wingman AI is sometimes a bit weak but in terms of functionality, replayability and sheer scale it's way ahead of it, and even further ahead of TvT. Here are some vids: The basic game you can get on eBay or probably at one of those download sites for older games. NOT to be confused with the arcade Panzer Elite Action (which has one or two adherents, tho]. Other alternatives might be the WW2 mods for Operation Flashpoint or the like, tho not really tank sims either. Last edited by 33lima; 01-04-11 at 06:31 PM.

01-05-11, 08:47 AM	#8
frinik Grey Wolf Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 897 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Best Sim Sorry Scotty to contradict you but PE has ballistic flight time incorporated for quite some time now thanks to the work of BritAldo44.Moreover in almost every aspect PE is a much better sim than Panzer Commander.The proof is that after 12 years it´s got a very active modding community , it´s own forum and every aspect of the game has been improved.Not tomention dozens of new maps, missions and scenarios. On the other hand who plays Panzer Commander nowadays????I haven´t heard anybody in the last 5 years.I have played both and it´s not contest. But I assume you would want to aply the latest so PE would be off your list. Otherwise in terms of modern tank sims only T72 Balkans on Fire-Iron Warriors is cheap but with only the T34, T55 and T62 playable and very small scale missions it ain´t very satisfying.

01-05-11, 04:43 PM	#10
33lima Planesman Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Belfast, NI Posts: 199 Downloads: 27 Uploads: 0	yeah the first video link I posted shows Panzer Elite gunnery with time of flight added, he's just firing at open countryside but at least you can see the tracer trajectory. PzC I quite liked too but the lack of tracers spoiled its gunnery for me, even vanilla PE's instantaneous white puff trails looked better. Didn't mind PzC's lack of infantry much but the fact that the ONLY other kinds of troops in the game were AT guns in silly bunkers, was a big minus too. Plus many of the tank 3d models were poor - Sherman 76s and Fireflies were just 75mm turrets with long barrels, that sort of thing. PE even out of the box had so much more and was a lot more realistic in nearly every respect. Functionally, Panzer Elite in its current state is still one of the very best tank sims you can play, just as modded Red Baron 3d and EAW are still some of the best combat flight sims available, such are their basic strengths, notwithstanding superior graphics, AI, flight models or whatever.