How often did they use deck guns?

YonMaruIchi · 12-16-17, 10:18 PM

Hey community, long time lurker with a simple history question.

How often did the American skippers use their deck guns throughout the war? If they found a lone cargo ship in calm waters would they always use it? Because early on in the campaign in SH4 it seems like there's really no reason to use torpedoes at all whenever you find a lone merchant ship with no defensive guns on it. Heck on I'm my third patrol and I just sank two medium sized cargo ships traveling together with no deck guns of their own before planes came to save them. I know they get more guns later in the war but for now there's not many reasons to use torpedoes if I find a loner.

Also did historical skippers focus more on hunting down convoys or sitting on routes where lone ships would always pass? Because the latter seems a lot easier for racking up tonnage. I want to adjust my playstyle this time to feel historic, but I haven't read enough books unfortunately. What do you guys do?

Thanks in advance!

succerpunch · 12-17-17, 03:43 AM

You must remember that the deck gun is not very powerful compared to a torpedo. The submarine is extremely venerable on the surface with the deck gun un-pluged. As the war progressed the ships got bigger and thus more shells where needed to poke holes in the hulls of ships. Towards the end of the war the deck gun was really just a morale kind of thing in such it didn't do much but gave the crew piece of mind. It is useful for sinking the sampans or ships that when torpedoed arnt going down.

aanker · 12-17-17, 01:40 PM

In all the US War Patrol Reports I've read, I don't recall any that listed the number of deck gun shells used. Most reports are very specific about how torpedoes were fired, the model, exploder, etc so you'd think they would mention a deck gun attack. Maybe I haven't stumbled onto the 'right' report where the deck gun was used.

At least one skipper didn't want a deck gun mounted for his reasons, maybe the gun would increase submerged drag? OTOH you can see small deck gun ammo hatches that were used by the loaders to pass ammo up to the loading crew up top. One related thing I read said there was a nine man loading crew for the gun but I don't recall where I read that.

Happy Hunting!

Capt.Hunt · 12-17-17, 10:09 PM

From what I've read, the torpedoes were mainly saved for big marus and warships. Anything they could take with the guns they would. Also, as the war went on the Japanese had fewer and fewer marus to use and relied more on Sampans. Mk14s were also notoriously bad at hitting shallow bottom ships because of their depth issues and wake.

aanker · 12-18-17, 12:39 PM

Yes, for sure they went after Fishing boats and Sampans acting as Pickets, so to determine that would be to board them and find some of the equipment that didn't get tossed overboard.... an antenna would look suspicious. I wouldn't be surprised if some/many skippers had a shoot first and ask questions later attitude about sinking them.

I haven't read the right reports yet - lol

Sniper297 · 12-18-17, 02:08 PM

Start with the second question -

"...focus more on hunting down convoys or sitting on routes where lone ships would always pass..."

Yes.

In reality, they were assigned patrol areas with additional instructions - example "priority tankers" or "report all air traffic going south" or "reconnoiter harbor at Wewak". Without a specific mission the standard was "sink everything, assume no friendlies in area". The patrol area had specific boundaries, inside that patrol area any allied ships were instructed to stay out. Later in the war the US started using wolf packs, prior to that one sub per area, and chasing a convoy past the boundary into another sub's patrol area was a bad idea since he would have the same "sink everything, assume no friendlies in area" orders, and might fire at you on sight.

Within the patrol area, you would look for "chokepoints", like straits between islands or capes sticking out that would force traffic crawling along in shallow water to divert away from shore to go around the cape. Convoys VS single ships was not a factor, you took whatever came along unless you had specific instructions - example, her comes two fat tankers with no escort, but you've been told that two carriers were coming the next day, so you have to stay undetected. Lot of variables involved.

As for deck guns, again it depends - sampans and small coastal freighters could be sunk with the AA guns (especially 40MM BOFORS) and the 4 or 5 inch deck guns could sink 1000 to 3000 ton unescorted ships with no problem in calm waters.

"Calm waters" makes a difference - the US fleet boats were a lot bigger, heavier, and deeper draft than the German U-boats, a Type VII in the North Sea wouldn't get much chance to use the deck gun.

In the US Pacific war the use of the deck guns was more common toward the end of the war because;

1. Japan was running out of airplanes and pilots so being on the surface was a lot safer, and
2. Most of the remaining targets were small and not worth a torpedo.

Lot of non fiction I read painted 1945 as a time of lifeguard patrols, plinking sampans, and shelling small shore installations on isolated islands.

12-16-17, 10:18 PM	#1
YonMaruIchi Watch Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 15 Downloads: 20 Uploads: 0	How often did they use deck guns? Hey community, long time lurker with a simple history question. How often did the American skippers use their deck guns throughout the war? If they found a lone cargo ship in calm waters would they always use it? Because early on in the campaign in SH4 it seems like there's really no reason to use torpedoes at all whenever you find a lone merchant ship with no defensive guns on it. Heck on I'm my third patrol and I just sank two medium sized cargo ships traveling together with no deck guns of their own before planes came to save them. I know they get more guns later in the war but for now there's not many reasons to use torpedoes if I find a loner. Also did historical skippers focus more on hunting down convoys or sitting on routes where lone ships would always pass? Because the latter seems a lot easier for racking up tonnage. I want to adjust my playstyle this time to feel historic, but I haven't read enough books unfortunately. What do you guys do? Thanks in advance!

12-17-17, 03:43 AM	#2
succerpunch Torpedoman Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: South Africa, Cape Town Posts: 114 Downloads: 292 Uploads: 0	You must remember that the deck gun is not very powerful compared to a torpedo. The submarine is extremely venerable on the surface with the deck gun un-pluged. As the war progressed the ships got bigger and thus more shells where needed to poke holes in the hulls of ships. Towards the end of the war the deck gun was really just a morale kind of thing in such it didn't do much but gave the crew piece of mind. It is useful for sinking the sampans or ships that when torpedoed arnt going down. __________________ No amount of experimentation can ever prove me right; a single experiment can prove me wrong. - Albert Einstein

12-17-17, 01:40 PM	#3
aanker Pacific Thunder Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yellow Sea Posts: 1,896 Downloads: 236 Uploads: 14	In all the US War Patrol Reports I've read, I don't recall any that listed the number of deck gun shells used. Most reports are very specific about how torpedoes were fired, the model, exploder, etc so you'd think they would mention a deck gun attack. Maybe I haven't stumbled onto the 'right' report where the deck gun was used. At least one skipper didn't want a deck gun mounted for his reasons, maybe the gun would increase submerged drag? OTOH you can see small deck gun ammo hatches that were used by the loaders to pass ammo up to the loading crew up top. One related thing I read said there was a nine man loading crew for the gun but I don't recall where I read that. Happy Hunting! __________________ " Bless those who serve beneath the deep, Through lonely hours their vigil keep. May peace their mission ever be, Protect each one we ask of thee. Bless those at home who wait and pray, For their return by night and day."

12-17-17, 10:09 PM	#4
Capt.Hunt Loader Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 90 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	From what I've read, the torpedoes were mainly saved for big marus and warships. Anything they could take with the guns they would. Also, as the war went on the Japanese had fewer and fewer marus to use and relied more on Sampans. Mk14s were also notoriously bad at hitting shallow bottom ships because of their depth issues and wake. Last edited by Capt.Hunt; 12-17-17 at 10:37 PM.

12-18-17, 12:39 PM	#5
aanker Pacific Thunder Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yellow Sea Posts: 1,896 Downloads: 236 Uploads: 14	Yes, for sure they went after Fishing boats and Sampans acting as Pickets, so to determine that would be to board them and find some of the equipment that didn't get tossed overboard.... an antenna would look suspicious. I wouldn't be surprised if some/many skippers had a shoot first and ask questions later attitude about sinking them. I haven't read the right reports yet - lol

12-18-17, 02:08 PM	#6
Sniper297 The Old Man Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Philadelphia Shipyard Brig Posts: 1,386 Downloads: 160 Uploads: 19	Start with the second question - "...focus more on hunting down convoys or sitting on routes where lone ships would always pass..." Yes. In reality, they were assigned patrol areas with additional instructions - example "priority tankers" or "report all air traffic going south" or "reconnoiter harbor at Wewak". Without a specific mission the standard was "sink everything, assume no friendlies in area". The patrol area had specific boundaries, inside that patrol area any allied ships were instructed to stay out. Later in the war the US started using wolf packs, prior to that one sub per area, and chasing a convoy past the boundary into another sub's patrol area was a bad idea since he would have the same "sink everything, assume no friendlies in area" orders, and might fire at you on sight. Within the patrol area, you would look for "chokepoints", like straits between islands or capes sticking out that would force traffic crawling along in shallow water to divert away from shore to go around the cape. Convoys VS single ships was not a factor, you took whatever came along unless you had specific instructions - example, her comes two fat tankers with no escort, but you've been told that two carriers were coming the next day, so you have to stay undetected. Lot of variables involved. As for deck guns, again it depends - sampans and small coastal freighters could be sunk with the AA guns (especially 40MM BOFORS) and the 4 or 5 inch deck guns could sink 1000 to 3000 ton unescorted ships with no problem in calm waters. "Calm waters" makes a difference - the US fleet boats were a lot bigger, heavier, and deeper draft than the German U-boats, a Type VII in the North Sea wouldn't get much chance to use the deck gun. In the US Pacific war the use of the deck guns was more common toward the end of the war because; 1. Japan was running out of airplanes and pilots so being on the surface was a lot safer, and 2. Most of the remaining targets were small and not worth a torpedo. Lot of non fiction I read painted 1945 as a time of lifeguard patrols, plinking sampans, and shelling small shore installations on isolated islands.