Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame?

[Hairog]

As many of you know there are many armored units in Battleground Europe. They include...

Tiger PZVI
PZIVD
T38
PZII
Stug B
Stug G
232
PZIVG
PZIIF
PZIIIH
Vickers
Damiler
A13
Crusader Mark II
Crusader Mark III
Churchill Mark III
Churchill Mark VII
Matilda
Panard 178
H39
R35
M3A3 Stuart
S35
M4A3 Sherman
M4A4 Sherman 76mm
M10 Wolverine
B1 bis
Laffy W15 TCC self propelled ATG
As well as many other anti tank guns that are present and want to ruin your day.

And they are all playable and against real live oppenents. No AI here.

Here is a little post by a Doc (one of the creators of BGE) that caught my attention. After a long stalemated period of intense combat, the Allied Commander either made a mistake or the Axis had a brilliant strategic nirvana as there was a massive breakout that was fun for all.

"Written by DOC Monday, 02 February 2009 00:00 What a Friday night it was in game. I spotted a post in the forums that I thought would shed some light on another one of the reasons we think the game is so great. In light of last nights events it seemed a good place to draw out these kinds of things for you and say congrats Axis! for a fun night.

From the forums, player Kilemal said:

The game's design relies on mistakes to create variability.

Bingo!

Just like real war, there are times of total stagnation, complete attrition slugfests down to the last man, other times of massive breakouts where the line is either in dire risk of collapse or actually does collapse. Times of fast movement where little battle is actually contested, and massive areas are occupied (captured) and other times where the breakout is chopped off like a bulging hernia.

After 2 straight months of withering heart felt conflict by all players of the game, we have seen everything. From Blitzkrieg to Stalingrad, it has all shown it's hand in this historic campaign number 50.

Never allow yourself the luxury of the self fulfilling prophecy that any mistake is a sign of the game being broken. Unlike most "conflict" games (I don't call them war games because I haven't seen any other game actually model the effects, consequences and management of WAR like this one, this is almost a war creator game not a war playing game) ... unlike those other games in this one you have the greatest collection of possible or potential WAR related elements and aspects you'll find in a single game. A mistake determining success or failure in a wargame that hopes to simulate actual war to any degree is not a sign that it is broken, it is a sign that it is working better than any war game where mistakes mean nothing, or don't exist in the first place.

MISTAKES are one of the biggest and most deciding factors in real war you could study. They decided more individual battles and campaigns than almost anything else. That mistakes at a command level can occur in this game is one of the reasons it is the only MMPOPvP WAR game out there. There are other games that are PvP or "war related" but none are as close to being as much WAR as this one is.

I salute all players who choose to take part in this grand wargame experience (if not experiment and it is largely an experimental project) ... we have happy players, bitter players, smart players and not so smart players. Skilled ones and n00bs, hoping to be skilled one day. We have strategic players and tactical players, ground grunts with the hard won experience to win against almost any odds, and cannon fodder who still have a long way to go. Aces and dweebs alike take to the skies. Players who run supply and resupply their comrades in the field. Others who fix or take down bridges to help shape the coming or ongoing attack or defense.
We have stalemates and breakouts. Little burps and massive coronaries. Brilliant leadership and huge mistakes. Face to muzzle close combat and mile away finger of god despatching of the enemy.

We have players who suffer a crisis of confidence and a week later, heck just a day later, they are racing through the lines and redrawing the map of conflict like they are the kings of the world.

We have towns that are too easy to take, and cities that seem impossible to take, and then along comes a town that was too easy to take yesterday and today it's an 8 hour meatgrinder. The city that last month was "impossible to take" falls captured and suddenly perceptions are shattered like glass.

Still some hold strong against all visible evidence.

In short, we have it all. You have it all. Good, bad, happy, sad, fast, slow, easy, hard, right, wrong, brilliant and insane ... the game has everything."

From what I can gather they are about to offer the game in China. This should bring in some much needed revenue and hopefully some more programers to polish this gem.

[Lieste]

Is WW2 Online the only true wargame?

It might be interesting, maybe. It might offer something rarely found elsewhere, sometimes - on a good day. But invalidating all other simulations strategy games and 'other' wargames is a bit of a stretch.

[TheBrauerHour]

Do you mean overall, or in the sense of armored combat? For tanking, I hear Steel Beasts is good for the modern era. I do like Battleground Europe, but there are many issues that need to be fixed before I would call it the one annointed game that rules all.

As far as an emotional standpoint, no other game gives me the absolute Frustration/stress/anger/joy all in one than WWIIOL. Though, IL2 wins for the airwar, as I have become so disgusted with the inabilty of the Axis planes in WWIIOL I have all but stopped flying.

[Hairog]

Well then fly for the allies. I love the P38.

By the By if you like the P38 I've created a really detailed campaign for IL2 4.08 that covers every mission that Richard Bong scored a kill. It is as historically accurate as I could make it considering there are no maps for some of areas of the pacific he flew in. I had access to some pretty rare books on Bong.

Got to missions4today website and look for offline campaigns "Americas Ace of Aces" or "Short Bong".

http://mission4today.com/

See if you can find and shoot down Washing Machine Charlie (the real one) like Bong tried.

I'll give you a dollar if you finish all 31 missions without dying and with 40 or more kills like Bong.

By the way do you know who Bong was? It's a real shame that many people do not.

[Dowly]

WWIIOL is the only game on that scale, but it's far from realistic simulation. It's aim is to have an balanced gameplay, instead of historically accurate. This is pretty clear on the armored combat & airwar.

[Hairog]

One of the most interesting things that I learned was that the early French equipment was very good. The Somosa 35 is the best tank on the map until the IIIf shows up and even then it can hold it's own. Hitler was right about the short barreled IVD.

The Matilda is a beast to kill early on. The Germans were very lucky that they had the 88 and that Rommel figured out how to use it properly.

There was a "Realism Event" held on this subject. It recreated the Battle of Arras where the Matilda was having a field day until the 88. BE holds realism events periodically where you only get one life. They are very entertaining even if you get killed right away.

Tanks show up over time as the current map progresses. The early French tanks give way to the American ones as the game marches on. Strategic bombing can effect the supply of new equipment which is kind of fun for the air war.

Considering the fact that they have less than a dozen programmers they have done a good job.

[Dowly]

Dont even try to mix history with WWIIOL. Like I said, the game is about balance, not historical accuracy. And you'll learn it when you get your Tiger tracked for the omphteenth time by a 20mm round from 1,5km. Ow and it dies ridicuosly easily too, even when shot at the front armor. That's why started to use the Stug3g almost exclusively, great tank, only lacks machinegun.

As for the allied tanks, well.. what can I say.. they are tough. Just few days back, I had a Sherman coming at me, I was in a Pak 50. I shot it to the tracks = nothing, shot to approx. where the driver should be = nothing, shot to the turret = nothing, another shot to the tracks = track damaged, turned to right, another 2-3 shots to the side = nothing, then it finally turned it's back to me and I got few hits to the rear armor and the back of the turret before it blew up.

Now, try that with ANY german tank and you propably end up dead with one or two shots from the Sherman.

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by TheBrauerHour

As far as an emotional standpoint, no other game gives me the absolute Frustration/stress/anger/joy all in one than WWIIOL.

Very true! One of the great things in WWIIOL is that, even if it's a game, both side's morale play a big part out on the battlefield. Let's take the situation, when the axis made the huge breakthrough. Allied morale collapsed, resulting in fewer players logging in on their side and even more of an advantage for the axis side.

Even now, that the frontlines have stopped moving, the allied morale seems to be low. Axis is overpopulated most of the times I log in.

[Skybird]

Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame?

No!

[Hairog]

I can say the same things about trying to kill a tiger. It is impossible most of the time. From what I've been told it is based on physics unlike most games that are based on a die roll. So in my opinion you get more realistic outcomes.

Sometimes you pop a turret and start a Ronson in one shot sometimes you aim is just a bit off and you use up all your ammo. It is based on your expertise not some computer generated die roll. You hit the right spot and it goes kapow.

I wonder if on the real battle field the first time you encounter a new model of tank you know exactly where to hit it to make it blow. I think not, so I like the variability based on my skill (which is very bad).

Are there a lot of things that are fubared ... you bet. Only more people playing can cure that problem. For my money it is the only game that has keep my interest constantly for over 6 years and counting.

It's not for everybody that's for sure but if you want heart pounding action on a huge scale. Give it a try.

Of course I know that this is not the only true wargame but at least it got a discussion going.

Oh and sorry about tracking your tiger. I just love doing that.

[Dowly]

The tank damage model is pretty complex. It consists of lots of parts and angle of the shot is ofcourse counted in too. If the round penetrates, it kills everything on it's path before it hits something inside and then if either stops there or goes thru it.

HE and HEAT rounds also have the same features as above, plus fragments that are flown to every direction kinda like little shells, everything is counted for them aswell.

Here's a vid about the DM from 2004. No idea what has changed since: