Periscope detections are hosed

[merc4ulfate]

I bet they and their escorts do not pretend to not see you LOL

[neilbyrne]

Merc4ulfate, Pacific War Encyclopedia states that of the 80 Tase-2 Type 4 sets built only two were installed on ships because it was deemed a failure. All the others were installed ashore.

http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/T/a/Tase...rine_radar.htm

The article doesn't list the scan rate. As I wrote above, the key radar attributes for periscope detection were clutter rejection and high scan rates neither of which came until well after the war.

If you could look at standard surface search radar detections on periscopes before that it would be only fractionally better than visual, not a capability to be counted on. It would and did take away the night surface attack from the sub, but I've never been able to pull one of those off in the game.

I know the difference between a sim and a video game. I was the game designer for two war games at the tactical level and program manager for one of those, both adopted by the USN, NAVTAG in the '80s and KillChain in the last decade. I don't expect to see that level of SECRET NOFORN realism in a video game and a dated one at that. I know what the AI does; it just follows orders. That doesn't mean you can't have a good one. The purpose of the thread was to see if someone had found a way to hold down grossly inaccurate detection ranges.

I've put in Aanchor's suggestions, but haven't had a chance to play with it yet.

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by TorpX

[INDENT]


It seems like the longer one plays this game, the more "broken" pieces we find. It isn't encouraging.

I somewhat disagree, I don't mess with files much anymore, happens in spells, but the more I do, the more encouraged I am that this game is far from its potential..

The hard thing is so many files and values interconnect and it can take 100's of hours tweaking them all to work together, so modders find a more generic balance...For instance, night surface attacks connecting to visuals with a realistic night env...I put over 100 hours just working on that....mostly testing changes and bubblehead was nice enough to test for me, probably more hours than I. We also reworked radar, just tweaking taters mod, visual, etc...numerous changes. bubblehead has played it a lot and night surface attacks feel very realistic. We differ a lil on how hard it should be based on light, so I made him one version and me another.

I think the frustration is that many things people complain about have been fixed, just they're in bit and pieces in numerous mods. No one as of yet has pulled them all together, so players start building their own mod setups they're happy with...It's really the best way to do it.

I agree, some things left out, hard code, flaws....it's an old game. That's why modders like Ducimas made TMO like he did, you have to make some aspects much harder to make up for stupid things and some things easier to make up for harder issues. It makes you play more realistically...

Anyway, the game is far from its potential...the flaw is the hours it takes to get the game more realistic and not sure the interest is there.

[TorpX]

Originally Posted by Armistead

I somewhat disagree, I don't mess with files much anymore, happens in spells, but the more I do, the more encouraged I am that this game is far from its potential..

Well, I was thinking about the game in general, more than the sub/DD detection stuff.

I tried my hand at modding the ship acceleration characteristics of the boats. I won't go into detail; suffice it to say, I didn't get anywhere. I was looking at the file entries of 'max eng force'. Apparently, it doesn't do anything. At least, nothing constructive. Why is it even there? I can see why people give up on fixing this game.

There are other things I would really like to have fixed, but I don't want to start a OT rant.

[merc4ulfate]

"The purpose of the thread was to see if someone had found a way to hold down grossly inaccurate detection ranges."

Perhaps you would have had better success by posting it in the mod section:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/forumdisplay.php?f=219
instead of the general section. There are many, yes some in this thread I know, who might have steered you into a better direction. There are good people there who have had many experiences with grossly inaccurate data sets.

Everything from Ship fired torpedoes, Default depth settings or simply reskinning your boat. All you have to do is read through the post. There is a ton of information already there.

I would have started there with mod questions.

[neilbyrne]

I implemented the changes suggested by Aanchor above with the exception that I also reduced escort's effective sonar speed to 12kts both active and passive in accordance with (IAW) actual capability as I outlined earlier. Previously it had been 15kst for passive and 20kts for active which are just nuts. As I recall for PAIR in 1970 with rubber domes and a compartment full of signal processor cabinets it was 15kts for both; so 12kts for WWII IJN may actually be generous.

TROUT's location was in the East China Sea in OCT'44. Recd an intell rpt on a convoy. We steamed to intercept at 18kts and picked them up on radar from well ahead at 18nm. Seas were running about 12-15ft on a clear night with a fairly bright half moon astern of us. Normally, I wouldn't have engaged because water depth was 127-165ft, but I wanted to test. So I positioned to end around the stbd wing escort. It was a three column convoy of 3, 4 & 5 ships. The escort was six ships, all Type Bravo & Charlie coast defense corvettes except for an OTORI as tail end Charlie and a HOSHO Class CVE as last (5th) ship in the stbd column altho I didn't know that when I decided on my tactic. I picked the stbd side because that was the closest side to deeper water. Convoy speed was 8.5kts. We were getting an ESM green bearing line from what turned out to be HOSHO indicating she had radar altho she was the only one.

I went to radar depth w/ the closest escort 8nm away and went to PD with her about 6nm distant. I stayed at PD thereafter with the least scope showing possible, but the scope up almost continuously. When I lost radar contact the stbd wing corvette was 2000yd from the track of the stbd column on the same course as the convoy. Plan was to open that track to 4000yds and then end around that escort outside her detection range then coming in astern of her to pick off the last ships in that column. But as you know, no plan survives the first contact w/ the enemy. As I'm moving out from the convoy track, the stbd wing escort alters course and starts out toward us distant about 6kyds. I'm thinking, "Here we go again w/ these goofy detections." She was on our stbd beam target angle 20 degrees to port. I was doing 2kts and put the rudder over hard right to point her. She started swinging to her port and I was figuring we'd been had for sure. But she kept swinging until we were on her stbd beam. Her bearing rate was climbing fast so I got a quick speed check on her and she was doing 13.5kts. Deaf as a post. She CPA(Closest Pt of Approach)'d us at 2650yds and cruised on out to the head of the convoy.

By then I was perpendicular to the stbd column track, bow on at 3100 yds off the stbd beam of the third ship, a medium sized freighter, with a small tanker in station 4. We were well into the wing escort's baffles so increased speed to close the firing point. I let both merchies go by and fired five fish at the CVE from about 2600yds. Two were duds, peculiar in late '44, but the other three hit and she blew up.

At this point the tail end OTORI detected us at 2650yds and started signalling "Contact detected" on flashing light. I actually started in the navy as an enlisted signalman 3/c . She was fine on our port beam and we still had a 2/3 bell on. She was bow on to us and appeared to be almost DIW. Not a detection I'd quibble with. We turned away w/ hard right rudder and put a Cutie into her which didn't sink her but allowed us to get away clean.

So that's the first run with these numbers in sim.cfg. I saved this at the pt where we were in first radar contact w/ this convoy so I'm going to keep trying various tactics and reporting the results.

[aanker]

Sweet :)

Happy Hunting!

[Hinrich Schwab]

Originally Posted by neilbyrne

I implemented the changes suggested by Aanchor above with the exception that I also reduced escort's effective sonar speed to 12kts both active and passive in accordance with (IAW) actual capability as I outlined earlier. Previously it had been 15kst for passive and 20kts for active which are just nuts. As I recall for PAIR in 1970 with rubber domes and a compartment full of signal processor cabinets it was 15kts for both; so 12kts for WWII IJN may actually be generous.

TROUT's location was in the East China Sea in OCT'44. Recd an intell rpt on a convoy. We steamed to intercept at 18kts and picked them up on radar from well ahead at 18nm. Seas were running about 12-15ft on a clear night with a fairly bright half moon astern of us. Normally, I wouldn't have engaged because water depth was 127-165ft, but I wanted to test. So I positioned to end around the stbd wing escort. It was a three column convoy of 3, 4 & 5 ships. The escort was six ships, all Type Bravo & Charlie coast defense corvettes except for an OTORI as tail end Charlie and a HOSHO Class CVE as last (5th) ship in the stbd column altho I didn't know that when I decided on my tactic. I picked the stbd side because that was the closest side to deeper water. Convoy speed was 8.5kts. We were getting an ESM green bearing line from what turned out to be HOSHO indicating she had radar altho she was the only one.

I went to radar depth w/ the closest escort 8nm away and went to PD with her about 6nm distant. I stayed at PD thereafter with the least scope showing possible, but the scope up almost continuously. When I lost radar contact the stbd wing corvette was 2000yd from the track of the stbd column on the same course as the convoy. Plan was to open that track to 4000yds and then end around that escort outside her detection range then coming in astern of her to pick off the last ships in that column. But as you know, no plan survives the first contact w/ the enemy. As I'm moving out from the convoy track, the stbd wing escort alters course and starts out toward us distant about 6kyds. I'm thinking, "Here we go again w/ these goofy detections." She was on our stbd beam target angle 20 degrees to port. I was doing 2kts and put the rudder over hard right to point her. She started swinging to her port and I was figuring we'd been had for sure. But she kept swinging until we were on her stbd beam. Her bearing rate was climbing fast so I got a quick speed check on her and she was doing 13.5kts. Deaf as a post. She CPA(Closest Pt of Approach)'d us at 2650yds and cruised on out to the head of the convoy.

By then I was perpendicular to the stbd column track, bow on at 3100 yds off the stbd beam of the third ship, a medium sized freighter, with a small tanker in station 4. We were well into the wing escort's baffles so increased speed to close the firing point. I let both merchies go by and fired five fish at the CVE from about 2600yds. Two were duds, peculiar in late '44, but the other three hit and she blew up.

At this point the tail end OTORI detected us at 2650yds and started signalling "Contact detected" on flashing light. I actually started in the navy as an enlisted signalman 3/c . She was fine on our port beam and we still had a 2/3 bell on. She was bow on to us and appeared to be almost DIW. Not a detection I'd quibble with. We turned away w/ hard right rudder and put a Cutie into her which didn't sink her but allowed us to get away clean.

So that's the first run with these numbers in sim.cfg. I saved this at the pt where we were in first radar contact w/ this convoy so I'm going to keep trying various tactics and reporting the results.

When you find the settings that you feel emulate historical realities to the best of your knowledge, feel free to share them with the rest of us. While having a good challenge is nice, I am also one to loathe psychic units.

[neilbyrne]

When you find the settings that you feel emulate historical realities to the best of your knowledge, feel free to share them with the rest of us. While having a good challenge is nice, I am also one to loathe psychic units.

That's my intention. I don't get to play daily so it may take a while to test thoroughly. Also I'm not all that sure what to tweak so I may have to come back to the forum w/ questions along that line.

[neilbyrne]

In this second test, I shaded toward the convoy's port hand intending to split the lead escort and the port wing escort, both corvettes patroling at 10kts. Environmental conditions same as first test altho water depth on this side of the convoy was 115ft. Again I submerged at 8nm to RD and PD at 6nm; periscope up the whole run.

Both escorts were aggresively patroling, never really steadying up for any appreciable time. The center corvette scared me a couple of times by pointing us, but then always turned away. I was careful to keep him constantly pointed. Her final CPA was at 1900yds dead on our bow. After that we were quickly in her baffles. The port escort never got closer than 3600 yds. We crossed the bow of the port convoy column in which there were just ash and trash small freighters. Then set up and shot the lead ships in both the other columns a large tanker and a large freighter putting three into the tanker and two into the cargo ship sinking both.

We then hid under the convoy until the tail end OTORI came up the stbd side of the convoy and we slunk out to the port rear.

In the next run, I think I'll go right at an escort and see at what range they detect.

[neilbyrne]

As intended, I attempted to penetrate the convoy's screen by closing directly on an escort just to see when she detected. I selected the center lead corvette. Same as above, RD at 8nm, PD at 6nm. This corvette was not patroling at all; she was on station 4kyds ahead of the lead ship in the center column and that's where she stayed. When she was distant 3800yds, we had her bearing 350 from us and her target angle was 345. We were at 2kts and she was at 8kts. I didn't alter courset thereafter trying to keep her pointed. We just closed each other on reciprocal courses. She detected us at 400yds by which point we held her bearing 310 and her target angle was 300 or so.

The convoy then scattered like billiard balls in all directions. We got some snap shots off at lousy angles. Hit two escorts eventually with Cuties. I then got to watch one of those get rammed and sunk by a tanker, big explosion, escort's capsized stern bouncing down the tanker's side, very cool. Hadn't seen that before.

I'll try this again with the same approach, but showing the corvette more of a beam all the way instead of a bow angle and see when she detects. So far, I'm pretty content with these numbers.

After that we then need to find a convoy in daylight to test periscope detections.

[neilbyrne]

Tonight I did as above, but ran across the convoy's track ahead and went to all stop right on the track of the center column with that column bearing 090 on our stbd beam. The center escort was patrolling more than last night, at one pt turning thru 180 degrees pointing back toward the convoy then turning back toward us distant 3750yds. Thereafter she stayed on course heading slightly ahead of our DIW position. We held her at 080 and her target angle was 345. We stayed DIW nearly beam on to her and she detected at 800yds. Since this was somewhat rough seas, 12-15ft, range seems about right. Pounding on the sonar dome in heavy seas reduces detection range.

Need to now find a convoy in nice weather during daylight.

[neilbyrne]

Last night after the above convoy test, I encountered and sank two single sailer merchies, one in daylight and one at night, without them detecting our periscope in either case. In the night case, I kept the scope up throughout the approach. In daylight, I made a lot of short observations, but didn't keep it up continuously.

[Leon West]

Using TMO 2.5, with TMO 2.5 Small Patch and Easier AI for TMO, I was able to sneak into a very very large taskforce, broad daylight at about 9 AM.

Actually, they about drove into me. My lookouts alerted me to a warship. I immediately submerged to periscope depth and went to silent running. I was able to ambush the convoy, picking out a colossal Fuso Battleship and several other cruisers to shoot at, never diving deeper than periscope depth. My attack was interrupted when another large warship actually ran over my periscope, knocking the boat around and damaging our flak gun and our paintjob.

The escorts only knew I was in the middle of their task force when my volley landed a shot on the Fuso and another ship I didn't get to see.

I took one hell of a depth charging from the 3 escorts after my brazen attack, eventually having some damage to my batteries and electrical engines that was extremely minor.

How I didn't get spotted so much sooner is beyond me. I did raise and lower my periscope periodically. The ship that ran me over didn't actually seem to even notice, and by then I left my scope up to finish the last of my shots off. It was only once my torpedoes started hitting and detonating that the task force realized something was up. Sadly, I never did sink that damn Fuso, and I couldn't reacquire the taskforce after the 3 escorts gave up as they were cooking at 20 knots and I was already quite low on fuel.

This was on my first patrol near the end of January of 1942. How did I drive right into the middle of a gigantic taskforce undetected at periscope depth? I'd like to say it's the Easier AI for TMO mod, which really just lowers the unrealistic periscope spotting of default TMO 2.5. Because I had to play quite the strategy game to shake those escorts. A few of their shots got incredibly close.

[Sniper297]

I've been trying Aanker's hack, and it seemed a bit too easy, so I toned it down a bit;

[Visual]
Detection time=1.1 ;[s] min detection time.
Sensitivity=0.05 ;(0..1) min detection threshold double detection time.
Fog factor=1.5 ;[>=0]
Light factor=3 ;[>=0]
Waves factor=4.0 ;[>=0]
Enemy surface factor=250 ;[m2]
Enemy speed factor=15 ;[kt]
Thermal Layer Signal Attenuation=1.0

[Radar]
Detection time=1 ;[s]
Sensitivity=0.01 ;(0..1)
Waves factor=1.0 ;[>=0]
Enemy surface factor=5.0 ;[m2]
Thermal Layer Signal Attenuation=1.0

[Hydrophone]
Detection time=7 ;[s]
Sensitivity=0.05 ;(0..1)
Height factor=0 ;[m]
Waves factor=1.0 ;[>=0]
Speed factor=15 ;[kt]
Noise factor=0.4 ;[>=0]
Thermal Layer Signal Attenuation=2.0 ;[>0], 1 means no signal reduction, 3 equals signal reduction to 33%

[Sonar]
Detection time=10 ;[s]
Sensitivity=0.01 ;(0..1)
Waves factor=0.8 ;[>=0]
Speed factor=15 ;[kt]
Enemy surface factor=150 ;[m2]
Lose time=30 ;[s]
Thermal Layer Signal Attenuation=3.0 ;[>0], 1 means no signal reduction, 5 equals signal reduction to 20%

So far it looks like a good compromise, I always thought the thermal layer was way too good to be true so I increased the detection capability under the layer, while reducing the general detection.

Playing stock game if I was unable to sneak inside the screen through a gap without being detected, I would dive 60 feet below the layer directly on the leading escort's path, wait until he passed over before coming up to periscope depth to start shooting. I'll try that with this hack and see if I'm still undetectable when he steams directly over me.

Interesting tactics while playtesting my Manilla Raid and Resupply campaign hack (V2 WIP), I added more destroyers to the mix, but with the leading US element two groups of 3 each light cruisers. If I take out the first BB and at least one of the heavy cruisers and time it just right the US light cruisers get the enemy cans off of me pretty quickly. If I'm too late the US light cruisers are toast, leaving me to deal with enemy escorts alone in shallow water, if I'm too early I got the same problem.

One tactic that worked well with a P class recently was getting close in to a BB or carrier, fire some shots from the bow tubes, then go as deep as possible (100 to 120 feet most parts of Manilla Bay) and go to all ahead flank cutting right across the bow of the oncoming target. Got enough enemy ships in the formation the cans don't dare come directly at you due to risk of collision with their own ships.