UK Politics Thread

Originally Posted by Skybird

In the end, the brits maybe never really were full members with heart and soul in the EU and its predecessors. It violates all what the English tradition of liberalism stands for. That narcissistic idiots like Johnson, Corbyn and May smear it, does not change the acchievements of this culture's history.

Is always nice if you forget the history for your own use and conceals that GB had really begged for a membership...
Before joining the EG as a full member as well as the EU, GB was really bad, only after our acceptance, the country flourished.
But they -GB- have done it bad... but well, it's mostly the idiots who direct politics and business.

[Skybird]

That simple it was not, but I think you do not really care. You may want to read the press conference held by de Gaulle on January 14th 1963. The french vetoed again st British memebership in the EEC twice. in the years after 1072, repeatedly British behaviour and political maneouvers illustrated repeatedly that tzhey were not really happy with their membership, they even helf a referendum. Afte rthat was won, the discomfort with the EEC continued nevertehless. In later treaties after the EEC had formally transformed from a purely economic union into a politically more ambitious cultural redefinition project of continental Europe (1993, Maastricht), they repeatedly enforced opt-out-clauses and stayiong-out-clauses for themselves regarding Schnegen and Euro.



Sinc elonger time they realise that the EU as of today is not what once the yhad asked for to be a member of: a purely economical joined market project. If the Eu would not enforce so much things that all lie beyond economic quesitons, but in pricnile are nothig n else biut the ambition to form a continetal, centrelaised super state, and if the migration issue would not have been so unscrupolously unlocked by the Germans and their imperial ambition to morally lecture and missionise the world, the referendum issued by Cameron probably would not have had a chance.



The growing nationalism, the growing right wing "populism" in all of Europe, the Brexit - all that are ghosts the EU itself has called to life with its megalomaniac amvbition and imperial demand to beco9me the one and only state fpor all of Europoe'S halb a billion people, no matter theirt hispotirclaly grown cultural identies, no9 matter their states, no matter their soverignty and their voted-for governments.


And this pisses more and more people across all of Europe.



With britain leaving, the net payers in the union jpoin a crucial voting majpority and can be voted down and vetoed down by net receivers in the Euro-zone. I hope you cna imagien yourself what this will mean for paying countrie slike Germany, Austria, Finland. The costs for Germany will be much bigger,m mutliuple factors as high as just the imminent raise in fees the Germans need to pay to Brussel. The whole fincial policy.making is in danger to be turned agsainst the stupid Germans. Thats what they slowly have understood in Berlin now - and thats why they have no interest to let the Brits go with just a tap on the shoulder. Britian is not only expected to pay on, its also expected to stem against the tide of financial demands from south European net receivers and ever debt-raising regimes. Its about voting power in severla European and Euro-related gremia.



The Germans. Well. They were stuoid enough to agree to structures for the Europ and the EU that over time slowly but surely would turn against them and abuse their finances increasingly. All for nothing but leaving a smile-marking in the world. Stupid, stupid, stupid.



States don't have friends, states have interests (Jack Kornblum, former US ambassador to Germany). just not germany. Germany has patronizing lectures, and romantic dreams. And this although in almost all decisive fields by now the big players have left us behind.


Mittelmaß. But wanting to save the world - easy, and en passant, of course.


The EU must go. And Germany must collapse. For the sake of freedom, and Europe. Germans do not udnerstand this, usually. Neither "Europe", nor "freedom". And certainly not "self-responsibility" and "cause and effect".

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Bleiente

Is always nice if you forget the history for your own use and conceals that GB had really begged for a membership...
Before joining the EG as a full member as well as the EU, GB was really bad, only after our acceptance, the country flourished.
But they -GB- have done it bad... but well, it's mostly the idiots who direct politics and business.

Do you actually believe what you have written above?

I reckon Sky responds to you most admirably

[Jimbuna]

MPs are putting forward plans to change the outcome of Brexit ahead of a vote next week on the PM's amended deal.

Theresa May said on Monday she was focused on altering the backstop - the "insurance policy" designed to avoid a hard border on the island of Ireland.

But Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn said the prime minister was in denial about the level of opposition to her deal.

Among the MPs' six amendments are plans to prevent a no-deal Brexit and to extend the deadline for leaving the EU.

But more amendments to change her next steps could be added in the coming days.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46955437

I fear she is flogging a dead horse...

[Catfish]

Well i am certainly not of Skybird's opinion, at least not entirely.
True that England always had its own ideas, holding back the EU's general progress while on the other hand contributing some good ideas when it comes to evaluate positions of the various members and how to still keep them together, and negotiate. Which is why a lot of England's EU workers in Brussel are less than amused that they and their country lose influence, internationally.
(b.t.w. England alone (without the UK) employs more bureaucrats than the whole EU, has to pay them, and will need a lot more now).

Skybird:

If the Eu would not enforce so much things that all lie beyond economic quesitons, but in pricnile are nothig n else biut the ambition to form a continetal, centrelaised super state, and if the migration issue would not have been so unscrupolously unlocked by the Germans and their imperial ambition to morally lecture and missionise the world, the referendum issued by Cameron probably would not have had a chance.

"The EU enforces". Or does it? Who exactly, dictator Juncker? And b.t.w. since this always pops up again, yes, even Juncker has been elected, along with all others working in or for the EU.
So the EU is becoming the centralised superstate, or one of its members? "Germany's imperial ambitions to lecture"? Do you also believe in the BRD being a GmbH, occupied by foreign powers?

Yes indeed, the EU is meanwhile more than a strictly economical club, it is about fighting terrorism, exchanging information, education, building, science exchange, international projects (not only economical, mind you), values and a general consent that working together has a better chance against powerful blocs like China or Russia, or recently Trump's hostility.
In short the EU is the nightmare of autocrate systems like in China, or Russia, or North Korea. And the latter are obviously very good in instrumentalising people like Skybird, and let them do the propaganda.

The growing nationalism, the growing right wing "populism" in all of Europe, the Brexit - all that are ghosts the EU itself [...] megalomaniac amvbition and imperial demand [...] the one and only state fpor all of Europoe'S halb a billion people, no matter theirt hispotirclaly grown cultural identies, no9 matter their states, no matter their soverignty and their voted-for governments.

The growing right wing populism is the ghost of the hard right wing that was never to give up its goal to rule. It is the right wing and stick-in-the-mud nationalists, who see their nationalism and sometimes more or less well hidden racism vanish, in the population's minds. Romania and Poland are two good examples.


And while i guess i know what you mean with "hispotirclaly", your pessimistic sermon is a bit of an exaggeration, don't you think so? The EU helps countries to keep their culture and identity, indeed it does not only finance culture and excavation, rebuilding and documentation of historical sites, but also publishes lots of literature about all kinds of cultural identities of its members. B.t.w. who exactly built up Manchester, from the rubble?

You are mistaking identity and culture with general standards for goods, food, and trade, to ease the latter.

Regarding what the EU has e.g. done for England, you might be in for a surprise:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/...ne-for-my-town
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co...ester-11020085
Which are only two examples of hundreds.


And you compare "Nazi-brown socialism? Stalin-red socialism? [...] Bejing-red socialism? Its all the same ****." with the EU? You are such a fool.

[Catfish]

Seems some business is taking precautions in time against a brexit, or whatever comes of the whole mess. Not that i think this is a good sign, or idea.

Britain's P&O re-flagging its UK ships to Cyprus ahead of Brexit

The London banks and the City of London corporation has of course already done what they thought necessary

[Jimbuna]

It is "obvious" there will be a hard border in Ireland in the event of a no-deal Brexit, the European Commission's chief spokesman has said.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-46961982

So who precisely is going to erect this hard border because both the Irish and the British have said they won't?

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Do you actually believe what you have written above?

What should be called faith here, these are actual and historically anchored facts.

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

I reckon Sky responds to you most admirably

What Sky had written there is simply nationalist-populist nonsense for me.

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

So who precisely is going to erect this hard border because both the Irish and the British have said they won't?

Obviously not the EU, since it strongly rejects a hard border. Just like Ireland.
The "backstop" is the guarantee for Ireland, not to have a "hard border". And it is the EU that insists on that. As well as Ireland.
Isn't it one of England's red lines to avoid this backstop at any means? I mean that is why May's deal was rejected.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern...itics-44615404

I guess i will just have to stop to try to understand what England even wants.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Obviously not the EU, since it strongly rejects a hard border. Just like Ireland.

So who does Mr Schinas represent then?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-46961982

[skidman]

He represents those that share the opinion rules must be obeyed. Not your cup of tea?

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

So who does Mr Schinas represent then?

He represents reason. He does not say that the EU will build a "hard border", he points out that if there is no deal, England will most probably end up with exactly that.
And b.t.w. all parties have signed the "backstop" agreement to guarantee Ireland's open borders.
Does not anyone think by now it would be better to settle the legal status of a neighbouring Ireland once and for all. Can it be at least economically independent as part of the UK, or not. If that is the problem

[STEED]

I like the way MayBot states this Plan-A2,A3,B,B1 call it what you like so if this is important why delay the vote until next Tuesday! Clearly it can not be or shes just dragging her kitten heals.

[skidman]

Does not anyone think by now it would be better to settle the legal status of a neighbouring Ireland once and for all. Can it be at least economically independent as part of the UK, or not. If that is the problem

Not going to happen. The situation there is fragile like a house of cards. That is why everybody holds on so firmly to the minimal consensus (the Good Friday Agreement).

Aside from economic problems a hard border would be the best way to freeze the status quo. The GFA allows everyone in NI to get an additional passport of the republic, so they could cross that hard border without visa etc. Neither the republic nor the UK have signed the Schengen treaty, but they have established an informal "Common Travel Area" allowing people to pass the border from both sides. Keep that CTA, but control the flow of goods. That way the Brits can have their No Deal Brexit (anything else would give them the feeling they lost their face - stupid, but that's the way it is) and the Irish would not suffer that much.

[Jimbuna]

Now Liam Fox adds his opinion into the mix...

Delaying or cancelling Brexit would be a "calamitous" breach of trust with the electorate and worse than leaving the EU with no deal, Liam Fox has said.

Liam Fox said MPs should think about the "political consequences" of delaying Brexit not just the "short-term economic consequences".

"But I think the most calamitous outcome would be for Parliament, having promised to respect the result of the referendum, to turn around and say it wouldn't."https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46971390