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Old 08-06-2008, 02:32 PM   #1
keltos01
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Default Biber midget submarine

Epperlecques : Biber

One of three types, this one is 9 meters long. as for the human scale, I'm 6'2''.









I saw one last week on holidays in France, we were visiting the Epperleques V2 rocket site and it was there on display. Unfortunately this one has been gutted, so no interior shots possible

The guy told me they operated out of Etalle and that there were quite a few more scuttled in the harbor

Since I found this free 3d model of a Biber (not exactly the same but close) would it be interresting to mod one in game, for the Atlantic campaign and Mediterranean.

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Old 08-07-2008, 12:43 AM   #2
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Hah Funny looking sub. Looks fun. Now let a distoryer attempt to sink that.:rotfl:
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Old 08-07-2008, 03:37 AM   #3
keltos01
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Default Second type model found

I think I found the exact match for this model on a 3D site :
http://www.3dxtras.com/3dxtras-free-...sp?prodid=6704


You can download it if you have a model to trade it for...

and there is also this one (including 5 other sub models):




http://www.3dmodelfree.com/models//3247-2.htm#1
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Old 08-07-2008, 05:34 AM   #4
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So that's the mysterious Keltos live and in person...

I'd give the top priority to the second model you posted, the Seehund.
The Biber was the most lethal weapon of WW2. To its drivers, that is...
It could dive, but could not keep depth, so dives in the Biber were either very short or permanent. Usual modus operandi was to dive only to avoid obstacles like antisubmarine nets and remain on the surface the rest of the time.
However, the main problem of the Biber was its engine: An Opel Blitz truck engine. Not a diesel, but a gasoline engine, which gave off carbon monoxide that slowly poisoned the driver. I suppose most Biebers were either lost to carbon monoxide poisoning or to fatigued drivers getting lost.
Bibers sunk a single confirmed enemy vessel, the 4000 ton "Alan-a-Dale".

The Seehund, in contrary, was a real U-Boat that could dive almost as fast as the IXD2 in the current ATO expansions:rotfl:
It had a working snorkel, a good range and good underwater performance. Also it was supposedly immune to depth charging because it was so small it was rather tossed around by the explosions than demolished.
Problem was, the 2 man crew had to endure missions for days without getting any sleep or toilet, with no navigational aids constant danger. I suppose most of them were high on Pervitin (basically the Bayer version of today's Meth) or at least on "Schoka-Kola" caffeinated Chocolate.
Seehunde were quite successful, with about 100.000 tons of shipping sunk.
So if you make one of them drivable, use the Seehund.
Of course the Biber would have the distinct advantage of having to create only the conning tower view, while the Seehund has a distinct interior.
But AFAIK the only real damage a Biber ever did was:
- one accidentally shot a torpedo into a whole Flottilla of Bibers, setting off a chain reaction that destroyed over 30 Bibers and killed many drivers
- They (kind of) successfully torpedoed the Bridge of Nimwegen

But both are rather slow and I don't know wether SH4 would simulate shallow water ASW and operations, especially since the operation area is one usually left blank in SH3-4 campaigns, the dutch coast and the Channel.
Also, fire control was rudementary on both. Basically, the driver aimed by "Seaman's Eye" and let fly. The problem was that the torpedoes were modified to be lighter but slower, and were only around 20 knots, so anything but a stationary target is a matter of luck.
Another mission would be supply missions to cut off german garrisons on the Channel coast.

A good novel on that topic is "Der nasse Tod" (wet death) by Enrico Döring.
If not for a cheesy romance subplot, I would even rate it as the best german language sub novel in a long time.
Same author now wrote a nonfiction book "die Biberfahrer" (the Biber drivers) about the subject.
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Old 08-08-2008, 03:39 AM   #5
keltos01
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here's a better pic (of the Biber not me ! :rotfl: ) but okay I just HAD TO show my face at least once !
I can't tell you how happy I was When I saw that Biber
keltos

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Old 08-08-2008, 04:04 AM   #6
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That's a Seehund, not a Biber.
Biber = the one you saw in France, with the ultra-historic bright blue primer paint job
Seehund = the 3d model, to be seen in RL in Munich, W'Haven, Sinsheim, Bremerhaven and Brest, only to name a few.

Strangely, these german midgets are among the most common preserved WW2 german weapons.
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Old 08-22-2008, 12:52 AM   #7
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Default Anyone making these for SH III or IV

That would be a fun ride for sure
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Old 07-04-2009, 06:16 PM   #8
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Watch out for those Biber 3d Models all over the net.
Nearly everyone of them are stolen from De Espona!

I bought thier model and compared them to the ones
commonly found.
It's the low poly version that your seeing.

To use them would violate copyright laws.
Even though I bought the model,
I can not use it for a Game model.

I've used thier model to assist in building my own version.
Since I don't have any good blueprints.

I've used the high poly model to build a new low poly model around.
The low and mid poly models from De Espona
seem to have been done with PolyTrans.


That's one way to do it,
but not the best way.

My intension is to make a playable Biber.
I've already solved the external torpedo stuff.
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Old 07-05-2009, 02:54 AM   #9
keltos01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by privateer View Post
Watch out for those Biber 3d Models all over the net.
Nearly everyone of them are stolen from De Espona!

I bought thier model and compared them to the ones
commonly found.
It's the low poly version that your seeing.

To use them would violate copyright laws.
Even though I bought the model,
I can not use it for a Game model.

I've used thier model to assist in building my own version.
Since I don't have any good blueprints.

I've used the high poly model to build a new low poly model around.
The low and mid poly models from De Espona
seem to have been done with PolyTrans.


That's one way to do it,
but not the best way.

My intension is to make a playable Biber.
I've already solved the external torpedo stuff.
could we ask them for a non-profit licence to use them ?

then again a camapign with the Biber would only work, as in RL, in the Channel, but might be interresting : attacking D-Day troopships etc..

Glad you have found a way to fire and make disappear the external torpedoes.

I'll look for Blueprints in my books, I still have other pictures I think.

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Old 07-05-2009, 08:58 AM   #10
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From the Buyers Agreement.

"Models or textures purchased from The3dStudio.com may be used in video games only if the buyer of the game cannot gain access to individual models or textures purchased from The3dStudio.com. Methods of safeguarding the models and textures include: A: Using a proprietary disc format such as Xbox 360, Playstation 3, etc. B: Using a proprietary model format. C: Using a proprietary and/or password protected database or resource file that stores the model data. D: Encrypting the model data."

Since we can easily extract the model?
I doubt permission would be granted?

The high poly model is quite nice though.
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Old 07-09-2009, 10:44 AM   #11
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How's the modeling going, privateer? I'm really looking forward to this one
I was working on one myself, but my 3d modeling skills aren't exactly great...
anyway, this is how it currently looks:

The 3d model is by far not good enough and I never got to texturing (apart from this test texture, just a plain color with a few decals)
I hope you do a better job than me

EDIT: oh, almost forgot: for blueprints/specifications/other info check out http://www.one35th.com/seehund/sh_index.html
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Old 07-09-2009, 11:51 AM   #12
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Old 07-17-2009, 12:47 PM   #13
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Nice pictures,she is an early Biber..is she there on permanent open display or do they take her inside in the winter season?,if not she will rot away in 10 years judging by her current state..

There was a Seehund found on the beach at Egmond(Netherlands) in 2002,it was just under the sand so they dug it up,the greatest thing is that the Captain Hans Wachsmuth survived the war and was interviewed about what happened.

He was welcomed by a British warship formation outside the shoreline.He dove to the bottom of the Northsea(at 30meters) and the British warships trew depth charges at him for 1,5 days..then suddenly the ships moved away but he thought he would be tricked,he waited for half an hour then he trimmed his boat to let her rise a bit and was again attacked by a massive depth charge attack so close by that everything fell from the racks,food and instruments..it went on and on and then suddenly the ships dissappeared..he sailed on for 1,5 days and suddenly he saw a mass of stone parralel to the Dutch coastline.They were deadly exhausted and tried to evade it but it was too late and the boat stranded near Egmond.

The torpedoes were still there,they were diffused in 2002.The boat itself is just a piece of rust but there are plans to restore her.

To give you an idea of their 'succes',they send out 18 boats on a particular mission,2returned.On another 'zehrsturung' mission they send out 10,none returned.They were stationed in Germany and Holland(IJmuiden).

Funny thing is 1000's of people ran over her anually on their way to the water to take a traditional new-years swim!

You can find the documentary here,its in Dutch and German but it has some great film material including the finding place and an interview with Hans Wachsmuth and alot of historical material..

http://geschiedenis.vpro.nl/programm...ingen/5681778/

To me this is one of the most interesting and personal documentaries about midget submarines and their specific operations.The Seehund class suffered horrific losses,mainly to poor training and human error as well as other accidents and design flaws.Hans Wachsmuth claims that if you did everything right inside parameters there was little that could go wrong.

There is also a wiki about the type:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seehund

There is also one on display at the United States Naval Shipbuilding Museum in Quincy, Massachusetts

http://www.hnsa.org/ships/seehund.htm
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Last edited by Kloef; 07-21-2009 at 06:32 AM. Reason: Added some more info
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Old 07-17-2009, 05:34 PM   #14
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wow...
great info on the vpro site, kloef
I really think the seehund would be one great addition to sh4. IMO this sub definitely should be modded. So is there any progress on the model privateer? I know the model I made myself looks good from a distance, but trust me, from up close it's really not good enough.
If you (or anyone else interested) make a model I could do everything else if you like (importing, dat & upc editing etc.), cause I'd really like to sail this sub (and like modding of course, duh..)
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Old 07-18-2009, 10:47 AM   #15
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It would be great to sail around with one of them,a small campaign too perhaps?

As far as 3d designing,i dont know what software you use,could you give me a link?
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