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Old 09-12-20, 04:29 PM   #1
mapuc
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Default 9/11 The Aftermath

An important information before I continue with my thread-This IS not an discussion about the terrorist attack 9 Sept. 2001.

Earlier today I saw a clip from some peace conference in Afghanistan..

What have we actually archived after 9/11 and the war on terrorist ?

What have we archived in Afghanistan ?

What have we archived in Iraq ?

Looking in the historical mirror a question pops up:

Should our leader have acted otherwise ?

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Old 09-12-20, 04:56 PM   #2
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Hindsight is 20/20


It is important to base our historical analysis on what was known at the time.
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Old 09-12-20, 07:07 PM   #3
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The afghanistan war must be rated as another sobering experience, for the US, but also for the Europeans. It costed an awful lot of money, and has not achieved lasting changes of strategic values or to the civil society of Afghanistan.



And now? The Taleban negotiate their way back to power, while never having offered apologies for the barbaric brutality they showed and terrorised the country with when they were in full control. I fear very, very much that the small changes that have happened for the better, sooner or later will be completely eradicated again. The taleban have not stoppd to be conservative Muslim. Different to the Iraq war, I can understand theUS reaction towards Afghanistan, the way they tried to fight the war in the early years was naive a bit, but that they struck at afghanistan after 9/11 is understandable. I never criticised the US for Afghanistan, only questioned the choosen ways. They got Mullah Omar and Osama Bin Laden. But as I see it, more they have not won from it.



Different it is for the Europeans, namely the Germans. Why we went there, has always been a mystery to me, we achieved nothing, and after we got under attack, form that time on we just defended ourselves and for that completely isolated ourselves from the afghan population and society which to "protect" we claimed to have gone there; we had hilarious, ridiculous, naive rules of engagement, and lacked seriously in military logistical and combat capabilities and existentially depended on the Americans for medivac, air support, and various Asian and Kazachian and Russian airforces and railways for our supply transportation, because we cannot support our troops at that distance by our own logistical means. That alone should have switched on a red light stopping us form going there. How arroigant miust one be to send one'S army to a palce that is beyiond reahc for own supply systems and that make the troops highly vulnerable for the good will of third countries with in parts highly dubious reputation? Maybe it was the bad conscience because the terrorists that struck on 9/11 were planning and preparing their attack in safety in Germany, namely Hamburg.



As much as I can understand the Americans, as much I have zero understanding for us Germans going there. A huge miscalculation. And ye,s one coukld have known it in advance. The military warned of it. The politicians, this elite of Marvel's league of superheroes, thougth they knew it better ocne again. Schuster, bleib bei deinen Leisten! Even these already are too much for us nowadays.



The Americans going to Afghanistan is understandable. Their methods were in parts questionable, naive, over-optimistic. The germans going there was simply stupid and showed once again a certain typical German overestimation of our own capabilities. In other words: we took the mouth too full, and even lied to ourselves about the fact that it was a war we embarked into. For years in our political debates it was seriously denied to be a war!
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Old 09-13-20, 04:52 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Platapus View Post
Hindsight is 20/20


It is important to base our historical analysis on what was known at the time.
Agreed
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Old 09-13-20, 05:09 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbuna View Post
Agreed

I'll let you know if I agree when I look back twenty years from now...




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Old 09-13-20, 05:43 AM   #6
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I disagree with Platapus if he puts it the way he did. Historical analysis must - necessarily and unavoidably! - base on the present of the analyst's own time to explain what what went good and what went wrong and why. But, and I think that is what Platapus wanted to say, we must of course also consider how things looked like from perspective of those living in the past and during past events. I must however object to letting the latter completely replace the first. And as already said, it also is impossible to see past things only from past perspectives. We cannot, even if we want, because we do not share past people's perspectives and canot just get the present out of our minds. Also, what we think past people'S perspectives were, not so much is always secured knowledge of ours, but just our assumptions. Even historic events we cannot be certain of to have happened as we describe them nowadays in history books. Just look for example how fundamentally the narration on the Roman-Germanic battle in the Teutoburger Forest has changed, and how we have changed our tale on the later Roman reaction, and even the battlefield'S location we had to move in past years!



Of course it is also totally wrong to ignore past contexts and only judge things by present standards, like certain lobby groups and extremist special interest groups try to enforce today.



I think of history as an academic branch as just the attempt to reflect on the past in as much an objective way as is possible for us. Always knowing that objectivity cannot be reached in total completeness.
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Old 09-13-20, 11:34 AM   #7
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Thank you for your input.

I should have mentioned in my first post, that it's not my intention to point fingers and claiming I would have done it otherwise if I was in charge.

Far from it.

Denmark lost 38 soldiers in Afghanistan
and
lost 8 soldiers in Iraq.

What I ask myself is:
did these Danish soldiers die in vain?

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Old 09-13-20, 03:05 PM   #8
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I wonder how the families of military members who died in AF "fighting the Taliban" now feel about the Taliban becoming part of the government of AF?



I don't think we had an enduring clear objective in AF
I don't think we had developed any methodology to objectively measure progress either for success or failure
I don't think we had an exit criteria based on both Failure and Success.



There are times I felt we stayed in AF because our pride would not let us leave.
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Old 09-14-20, 03:19 AM   #9
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The wests geo political screw ups didnt end with Iraq and Afgahnistan, supporting the Arab Spring & the ousting of gaddafi also had a negative impact.
E.g The European migrant crisis was a consequence of the Syrian war + supporting the revolt against gaddafi. With him gone, the loss of stability in Lybia gave the traffickers free reign. The migrant crises (plus the progressive 'heart before brain' knee jerk reaction to it) in turn fuelled much of than Anti EU sentiment accross the continent and was key in the 'Leave' result of the UKs Referendum and the rise of more rightwing/far right populist movements.
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Old 09-14-20, 04:00 AM   #10
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Indeed it seems what "the west" did (maybe with good intentions) finally destroyed a lot of infrastructure, killed a lot of people, and destabilised countries and whole regions for decades to come.
Ghaddafi made the mistake to try to sell his oil in other than dollar currrency
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Old 09-14-20, 05:59 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Catfish View Post
Indeed it seems what "the west" did (maybe with good intentions) finally destroyed a lot of infrastructure, killed a lot of people, and destabilised countries and whole regions for decades to come.
Ghaddafi made the mistake to try to sell his oil in other than dollar currrency

Thou Shalt not betray the mighty Petro Dollar.
That ships pretty much sailed now though.

I dont know, on the one hand Its unrealistic to rag too hard on any nation just for looking out for its own interests. They/We all do that and there will always be winners and losers there.
The problem with protectionism really occurs when the benificeries are fewer than the victims. (In many cases 'VASTLY' fewer with a disprortionate severity of victimisation on those negitivly impacted.)

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Old 09-14-20, 06:49 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Platapus View Post
I wonder how the families of military members who died in AF "fighting the Taliban" now feel about the Taliban becoming part of the government of AF?



I don't think we had an enduring clear objective in AF
I don't think we had developed any methodology to objectively measure progress either for success or failure
I don't think we had an exit criteria based on both Failure and Success.



There are times I felt we stayed in AF because our pride would not let us leave.

Pretty much agree with the above; we probably would have been better off just carrying on a continued action of finding and obliterating Taliban/Al Qaeda, etc., operations from the air rather than mounting an awkward, plodding ground troop assault; it also didn't help that various entities in the US government with their own AF agendas stymied actions that would have quite possibly put and end to a lot of what came after our initial invasion; the allowing of OBL to escape when we had him in our sights leaps to mind since that act of dereliction appears to have been more politically motivated than militarily sound...

...and, on the matter of pride, let's not forget the debacle of the Iraq war that seems to have been predicated on Dubbya wanting to prove he had a bigger pair that his dad...





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Old 09-14-20, 10:04 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vienna View Post
Pretty much agree with the above; we probably would have been better off just carrying on a continued action of finding and obliterating Taliban/Al Qaeda, etc., operations from the air rather than mounting an awkward, plodding ground troop assault; it also didn't help that various entities in the US government with their own AF agendas stymied actions that would have quite possibly put and end to a lot of what came after our initial invasion; the allowing of OBL to escape when we had him in our sights leaps to mind since that act of dereliction appears to have been more politically motivated than militarily sound...

...and, on the matter of pride, let's not forget the debacle of the Iraq war that seems to have been predicated on Dubbya wanting to prove he had a bigger pair that his dad...



<O>

I think thats what the U.S would have done under most circumstances /leadership.
Not sure I buy the idea of 'Dubbya' wanting to prove himself to Dad. Looking into his past reveals that it would have been a first for him really. I think it was more about returning favours to his former Haliburton mates and ilk who helped him in office in the first place, its seem to me that Cheney, select advisors & co were the real brains behind the Bush Jr admin.
back then War meant big business to alot of very infulential U.S Companies and Institutions.
But now everyones too broke to be doing that.
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Old 09-14-20, 10:12 AM   #14
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I think thats what the U.S would have done under most circumstances /leadership.
Not sure I buy the idea of 'Dubbya' wanting to prove himself to Dad. Looking into his past reveals that it would have been a first for him really. I think it was more about returning favours to his former Haliburton mates and ilk who helped him in office in the first place, its seem to me that Cheney, select advisors & co were the real brains behind the Bush Jr admin.
back then War meant big business to alot of very infulential U.S Companies and Institutions.
But now everyones too broke to be doing that.

I'll give you that Cheney was the Richelieu to Bush's Dauphin, but if you read accounts by those who actually were part of the Bush administration's conduct following 9/11 and the ramp up to the war, it is more than obvious Dubbya was an eager and willing participant; his adamant instance the intelligence and military must find a connection, however spurious, between the 9/11 attacks and Iraq speaks to an agenda beyond just being beholden to Cheney...




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Old 09-14-20, 10:56 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Platapus View Post
I wonder how the families of military members who died in AF "fighting the Taliban" now feel about the Taliban becoming part of the government of AF?



I don't think we had an enduring clear objective in AF
I don't think we had developed any methodology to objectively measure progress either for success or failure
I don't think we had an exit criteria based on both Failure and Success.



There are times I felt we stayed in AF because our pride would not let us leave.

PERFECT POST. Post of the year?
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