Warship Wrecks - Found Or Not Found?

[nikimcbee]

Originally Posted by nikimcbee

I say, find the U-47, end the mystery.

Bah I already posted this last year. Damn alzheimers

[A Very Super Market]

Good god! Necromancy! Well, as long as everyone else is doing it.


Guadalcanal's "Ironbottom Sound" is chock-full of sunken ships, but everybody probably knows that. Musashi should be fairly easy to find, considering she sunk in the middle of the Phillippines, hard to believe shes been lost.



How about the hundreds of U-boats in the middle of the Atlantic? Bet no one will find them ever!

[August]

Originally Posted by USS Sea Tiger

You should look up the wreck of the HMS Victoria of 1893, A vertical shipwreck,, really something to see!!! She nosedived into the mud, and stayed that way, now over 100 years.

Interesting. Here's the only image i could find that shows this:



http://www.cityofart.net/bship/victoria.htm

[Catfish]

Hello,
the "Victoria", hrrrm, seems she sank because being rammed accidentally during a fleet "show" manoeuvre ..

" ... Victoria wrote a page in naval infamy when she was accidentally rammed by the Admiral-class battleship HMS Camperdown (left) and sunk in full view of crowds on the Tripoli waterfront, including a glittering array of military brass. ..."

" ...The 1200-yard gap between the columns was 400 yards less than double the ships' minimum turning radius. Unfortunately the Admiral failed to widen the space between columns (as subordinates timidly suggested several times) to build in a margin of safety before ordering the crash turn. Some sort of mental block seems to have blinded him to the peril, and his officers were wary of arousing his famous temper. The two leading ships, Victoria and Camperdown, drew closer and closer until the Camperdown's ram sliced through the Victoria's bow. Mercifully Camperdown's captain had reversed engines at the last minute, as the collision course became obvious to him. ..."

A case of leading officer's expertise again, seems to be the US Navy is right with promoting officers that "have luck" rather than other, well, attributes

Well, no warship but seemingly an auxiliary cruiser ? :hmm: :
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti....html?ITO=1490#

Greetings,
Catfish

[Fr8monkey]

I was watching a piece on the history channel just yesterday on the USS Indianapolis being found; but I wasn't reall paying attention (on for background noise).

The USS Oklahoma was raised and then sold for scrap due to the excessive damage http://www.pacificwrecks.com/ships/usn/BB-37.html

[August]

Originally Posted by USS Sea Tiger

The pumping of the Arizona is not so simple as you might think, Her fuel is Bunker C, a thick tarry type fule that must be heated to about 120 degreesf to luquify enough to pump. If you were to heat up her tanks to that temp, the expansion would rupture her hull, and also, she is near collapse, heating her would casue the metal to expand and crack, thus possibly causing further pollution.

The DKM Adm Sheer still exists

In a strange coincidence the book I just started reading "Clash of the Carriers" has a short chapter describing Bunker C fuel. I ran across it today at lunch and said "wow i just read about this on Subsim!"

From the book page 12:

Most WW2 ships ran on bunker fuel, so called because it was stored in large tanks called bunkers. The standard fuel, known as "Bunker C" was a sludgy, malodorous substance almost the texture of molasses ("too thin to walk on and too thick to swim in"). Unlike gasoline, it was easily obtained and in some cases could be used almost raw.

Bunker C was what the petroleum industry calls a "heavy distillate: fuel oil number six". A light distillate is gasoline, while middle distillates include diesel and kerosene. Bunker fuel begins as crude oil, but in refining the lighter fractions such as gasoline, kerosene and diesel are removed by distillation. That leaves the residuals, heavier materials not distilled because their boiling points are too high. Therefore, they do survive the refining process, as do contaminates such as salts and sediment, not unlike seawater when it evaporates.

Because bunker fuel had to be preheated before burning, most Navy ships were built with fuel oil heaters in the fire rooms and steam heating coils in the tanks to facilitate pumping Bunker C. At fifty degrees Fahrenheit it emitted an unpleasant odor similar to asphalt paving material.

The war could not be fought without it.

[Torplexed]

Originally Posted by A Very Super Market

Good god! Necromancy! Well, as long as everyone else is doing it.


Guadalcanal's "Ironbottom Sound" is chock-full of sunken ships, but everybody probably knows that. Musashi should be fairly easy to find, considering she sunk in the middle of the Phillippines, hard to believe shes been lost.

According to the famed wreck finder, Bob Ballard the wreck of Musashi should be at 13° 07' 01" North, 122° 31' 59" East, in the Phillipines off the Bondoc Peninsula, in 4,430 feet (1,350 m) of water. Her exact location still hasn't been pin-pointed though.

However, even though her exact location is still unknown, according to this article in the Manila Bulletin some Japanese executives are planning to raise her:

http://www.mb.com.ph/issues/2008/10/...021138571.html

The Japanese, group headed by Kiyoshi Goto of the Japanese government and Toshihiko Suzuki, chief executive officer of AIPAC (Asian Countries and Islands Optical Fiber Communication and Philippines Property in Asia), made yesterday an offer to the Philippine government to refloat the sunken Japanese warship in the Sibuyan Sea.

I'll believe it when I see it. Raising a 69,000 ton battleship pocked full of torpedo holes from 4,000 feet of water? Even assuming she sank upright or didn't implode it'd still be cheaper to build a replica.

[August]

Originally Posted by Torplexed

I'll believe it when I see it. Raising a 69,000 ton battleship pocked full of torpedo holes from 4,000 feet of water? Even assuming she sank upright or didn't implode it'd still be cheaper to build a replica.

Dirk Pitt did it with ping pong balls... :p

[A Very Super Market]

Ah, but he had the Power of Swede!

Well, Karl Kroyer did. But he was a real person!

[GOZO]

to empty those tanks after the last survivor dies

That must be the key.

Otherwise you just replace the fuel with seawater as they are emptied but the case mentioned means "disturbing" a grave site.

Honor to the men of the Arizona

/OB

[SavoIsle]

Just a quick note going out to AG124 Grey Wolf.
I've also been doing some extensive research on the events of 9 August 1942, on the occasion of the 1st Battle of Savo Isle. I've been able to obtain some info (however limited) from various wreck divers out of Tulagi, (Florida) on wreck locations for at least a few of those ships you had listed.


Some limited info (and a pretty good map) has surfaced to provide for diver accouints for the Quincy, Astoria, Vincennes, DeHaven, Northampton, HMAS Canberra, and even USS LST 342 in Tokyo Bay. Wish I had some way to attach the map image here. Pretty cool actually.


If you guys get a chance, read up on the Quincy and the Laffey, and their sad fates. All fascinating stuff! You might also want to catch Richard Seaman's classic "342" Tokyo Bay photos at:
http://www.richard-seaman.com/Travel/SolomonIslands/NgellaIslands/Lst342/index.html


Just thought I'd share with you guys and pass along.

SavoIsle

[iambecomelife]

Originally Posted by SavoIsle

Just a quick note going out to AG124 Grey Wolf.
I've also been doing some extensive research on the events of 9 August 1942, on the occasion of the 1st Battle of Savo Isle. I've been able to obtain some info (however limited) from various wreck divers out of Tulagi, (Florida) on wreck locations for at least a few of those ships you had listed.


Some limited info (and a pretty good map) has surfaced to provide for diver accouints for the Quincy, Astoria, Vincennes, DeHaven, Northampton, HMAS Canberra, and even USS LST 342 in Tokyo Bay. Wish I had some way to attach the map image here. Pretty cool actually.


If you guys get a chance, read up on the Quincy and the Laffey, and their sad fates. All fascinating stuff! You might also want to catch Richard Seaman's classic "342" Tokyo Bay photos at:
http://www.richard-seaman.com/Travel/SolomonIslands/NgellaIslands/Lst342/index.html


Just thought I'd share with you guys and pass along.

SavoIsle

Yes, I actually have done a bit of reading on the poor "Laffey". She's one of my favorite DD's - it took guts for a tin can to strafe a Japanese BB at point-blank range!

[tigone]

From the Arizona Preservation Project website (info from 2004):

4. Is there still oil on Arizona ?
USS Arizona contains an estimated 500,000 gallons (2,300 tons) of Bunker C fuel oil, which has been slowly escaping since its loss. This oil, a potentially serious environmental hazard, is contained within the corroding hull. Catastrophic oil release, although by all indications not imminent, is ultimately inevitable. Understanding the complex and varied hull corrosion process and modeling structural changes and oil release patterns offers the most efficient method of developing a solution to this potential hazard. Because of the particular national importance of Arizona, any solution must incorporate a minimum-impact approach, or long-term site preservation will be compromised. Unnecessary impairment of Arizona’s hull is likely to be seen by many as more problematic than oil release. Addressing the oil release problem within a site-preservation framework as incorporated within this project provides the best balance of competing social values, and it has the highest probability of success for arriving at the best and most defensible solution for both issues.

5. How long will Arizona last?
Scientific data collected during the USS Arizona Preservation Project is being used to create a predictive model of Arizona to determine its natural lifespan. Complex computer modeling, known as a Finite Element Model, is the tool we’ve chosen to collate the data to predict the sequence of the battleship’s deterioration and give managers an idea how long we have before significant hull collapse occurs. The Park Service has teamed up with metallurgists and engineers from the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST), in Gaithersburg, Maryland to conduct this analysis. These NIST scientists bring experience and techniques used for analysis of Titanic and the steel from the World Trade Center to bear on the Arizona investigation. Arizona is being reconstructed digitally in an incredibly powerful software package – we’ll start with Arizona as built on the day of the attack, then add the effects of the fatal blast and 60 years of immersion in salt water to bring us up to the present. Next, using data we’ve collected on the battleship’s corrosion rate both inside and out, we’ll project the model into the future to see how quickly and in what way the ship disintegrates and which will be the major structural features to give way first. This will give NPS and Navy managers the information they need to make tough decisions about when and if to intervene in Arizona’s natural deterioration.

As of a year or so ago (last I've heard), the NPS believed that a catastrophic collapse of Arizona's hull, leading to a major oil spill, is still some years off. In the meantime, they monitor the site closely to (hopefully) anticipate any major changes in the wreck. For a variety of reasons, all concerned want to keep as "hands-off" on this wreck as they can.

[ijnfleetadmiral]

Originally Posted by USS Sea Tiger

the Hipper, is found,, though not divable as she is quite deep, but water clarity allows that on calm days and a bright moon you can see her from above in a aircraft.

If you mean the Admiral Hipper, she was scuttled in shallow water and scrapped after the war...her wreck no longer exists.

Originally Posted by USS Sea Tiger

Fuso is found, but in two lrge sections, about 2000yds apart. No one can really expain why so far apart, but it happened.

Fuso's wreck has NOT been found, and Anthony Tully's recent book Battle of Surigao Strait has stated conclusively that the battleship was NOT ripped in half by a ginormous explosion. As far as we know, Fuso is still in one piece.

Of the other WWII wrecks previously listed in this thread, only HMS Hermes has been found, and that was back in 2006. She lies upside down in very shallow water (only about 150 feet) and is (obviously) heavily damaged. To my knowledge, none of the Italian warships sunk during the war have been located, either.

All the wrecks from the Java Sea battles have also been located as of this writing.

As for the IJN, countless merchant ships have been found over the years, but I'm only going to list the major warships here.

MINELAYERS
Hatsutaka, Itsukushima

SUBMARINES
RO-60, RO-65, I-1, I-7, I-14, I-30, I-33, I-34, I-52, I-58, I-169, I-201, I-401

Of these, I-30, I-33, and I-34 were all salvaged and scrapped. Their wrecks no longer exist. I-14, I-201, and I-401 were sunk as target ships postwar. I-58 (yes, the sub that sank Indianapolis)'s discovery is only a shaky rumor. Details of the wreck are unavailable.

DESTROYER-ESCORTS
Kuwa

DESTROYERS
Oite, Fumizuki, Nagatsuki, Kikuzuki, Yuzuki, Ayanami, Amagiri, Akatsuki, Shigure, Arare, Kuroshio, Shimakaze, Shimotsuki

Of these Ballard discovered a DD wreck in Ironbottom Sound off Guadalcanal back in 1992. The wreck had the Japanese katakana symbol for 'a' clearly visible on its stern. As no positive ID could be made at the time, it is unknown whether the wreck is that of Ayanami or Akatsuki. The discovery of Shimakaze is - like that of I-58 - rumor only.

LIGHT CRUISERS
Kuma, Kinu, Isuzu, Sakawa

Isuzu's discovery is yet another unfounded rumor.

HEAVY CRUISERS
Haguro, Ashigara

Haguro has been extensively dived. Ashigara lies in very shallow water (around 200 feet or so) and has been heavily salvaged.

SEAPLANE & AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
Akitsushima, Kaga

Only a small piece of Kaga (one of her AA gun sponsons) was located.

BATTLESHIPS
Kirishima, Yamashiro, Nagato, Mutsu, Yamato

Yamashiro was supposedly located back in 2006, lying on her starboard side in 600 feet of water in reportedly very good condition. As no pics have come from this, I consider this rumor to be unfounded. As for the remaining BBs, there was to have been an expedition to look for Kongo's wreck back in March 2010, but it never got off the ground due to lack of funding. Musashi's wreck - despite the nutcase claims she was to be salvaged and rebuilt as a museum ship - remains unlocated.

If anyone wants more info about the wrecks mentioned here, let me know.

-Matt

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by ijnfleetadmiral

If you mean the Admiral Hipper, she was scuttled in shallow water and scrapped after the war...her wreck no longer exists.

You're responding directly to a post made TWO YEARS AGO?


Sorry. Maybe it's just because of my age, but that kind of thing strikes me as very odd.