I just had a go with the Walter boat

[Rockin Robbins]

I'm thinking that Japanese landwar stategy wasn't advanced enough to be a real help to the Germans against the Russkies. It seems to me that the help should have gone in the other direction, with the transfer of 300 U-Boats, crews, support and production facilities to Japan. If this had been done in early 1942 to the middle of 1943 the amount of resources the Allies would have had to tie up in the Pacific would have given Germany much breathing room.

Fortunately, actually helping out an ally was a foreign idea for the Wermacht.

[bigboywooly]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

Fortunately, actually helping out an ally was a foreign idea for the Wermacht.

Interesting

So Fliegerkorps X ( Luftwaffe ) being sent to Italy to bomb Malta wasnt help
Or
Operation Sonnenblume ( Wehrmacht ) which saw the Afrika Korp despatched to North Africa in early 41 as the Italians were close to collapse wasnt help
Or
The formation of the 23rd and 29th U flotillas ( Ubootwaffe ) in the Med ?

I dont think there would of been any chance of sizable resources going to Japan\Pacific as the Germans simply didnt have them , even more so after bailing out the Italians in the med

[Wilcke]

Your right!

Il Duce's insecurity and need to be in the limelight were perfect setups for his disaster in Greece and the battles for North Africa. These two theaters distracted Hitler and vital resources from the Barbarosa order of battle. The need to rescue Il Duce proved to be just more nails in the coffin for Hitler and his minions.

[jas39]

The Axis were doomed to fail...anyone who invades and occupies another ethnic society will sooner or later meet armed, relenteless resistance, especially from nations such as russia and china.

[mikeydredd]

Originally Posted by jas39

The Axis were doomed to fail...anyone who invades and occupies another ethnic society will sooner or later meet armed, relenteless resistance, especially from nations such as russia and china.

...... or Iraq!

[Rockin Robbins]

How about the Norman invasion of Britain? Or the Roman occupation of Britain, for that matter? There are plenty of examples (Alexander the Great) where invasion did not result in implacable resistance. How about the Allied invasion of the European continent at D-Day? American occupation of Japan? Union invasion of the Confederacy?

Invasion is like going to court. Anything can happen and justice has nothing to do with it.

On the other issue, I wonder if Italy could be considered an ally of Germany at all? Militarily, they were thoroughly incompetent and just too decent a people to be any help for the Nazi cause. Italians saved many more Jews in their society than the French did! The vast majority of Italians just refused to participate in the Jewish extermination programs and actively shielded Italian Jews from persecution. Italians were tempermentally unsuited for the dark side.

I think Hitler was not helping Italy, but doing the opposite: attempting to dominate a reluctant but grandiose misfit. In effect he was occupying an ally!

[Wilcke]

Oh and Spain with the Moorish invasion....they spent 800 years there prior to the "reconquista".

[mikeydredd]

I think we are in danger of getting way off topic now. But I'm going to have to take issue with a couple of points RR.

The Roman invasion of Britain faced continual resistance from the local population for hundreds of years. Queen Boadacea springs to mind to name just one. Why do you think the Romans felt the need to build hundreds of fortified towns and forts up and down the country? Hadrian's wall was built to try prevent these constant uprisings. It was only after a long period of time, when the Roman invaders had largely assimilated into the local population, adopting many of their customs and religious practices, that resistance petered out. Indeed the "Romans" who lived in Britain towards the end of their empire, regarded themselves as primarily British.

As for the Norman invasion, I seem to remember that they had it hard right from the start,(the battle of Hastings!) despite having, as they saw it, a legitimate claim the English crown. Resistance was so widespread and endemic that they had to write the Domesday Book, just to find out what was in front of their eyes, as the locals wouldn't even tell them how many chickens they had!!! Why do you think they felt the need to buld fortified towns and castles the length and breadth of Britain? And again, English resistance only really stopped when the Normans had become so anglicised that they had become indestinguishable from the local population.

Tha allied landings on D day as I remember it, was to relieve Europe from the occupation of Nazi Germany and was hugely welcomed by all the indiginous populations of those countries, who saw it as liberation. With maybe the exception of certain elements in France.

The US occupation of Japan at the end of WW2 was not as a result of an invasion. The US used their atom bombs so as to prevent the need for a costly and bloody invasion of the Japanese mainland. The US merely occupied a defeated land that had already signed a peace agreement with them. And this occupation was primarily aimed at preventing any possibility of the still largely intact and undefeated Japanese army from being re-activated and re starting hostilities. Indeed General MacArthur went to very great lengths to try and prevent the Japanes feeling that they were being occupied by anyone at all!

As for the "occupation" of the South by the North after the Civil War, that would open a whole can of contentious worms which I'm not prepared to go into.

It seems the lessons of history regarding one nation invading and occupying another are very clear. This happens for one of two, sometimes both, reasons. The invasion occurs because either 1: that country feels threatened, or at least pretends to feel threatened, and/or 2: it wants to exploit the raw materials of the invaded country for its own ends.

The invading nation then faces one of two possible results:
it either stays for so long that it largely becomes part of the invaded nation, adopting its customs, religion and language, so that in effect it becomes that nation. It goes native;
or it chooses not to do this, is then seen as an occupation force, and is booted out sooner or later by the locals, probably with the help of someone else.

Lessons that are as valid today as they have always been!! And you are right - justice has absolutely nothing to do with it.

As for the Italians in WW2, just ask yourself how many times they changed sides. Was it three, or four?!! Certainly the Germans did see themselves as occupying Italy towards the end of the war, who by then they regarded as totally unreliable, and their vicious treatment of the local population at that time is very well documented.


Anyway, enough of this. We should be discussing subsimming. Which is much better fun.

The dreddster out.

[Capt Jack Harkness]

Originally Posted by Kptlt. Hellmut Neuerburg

I did a little research in the Walther boats and there where a total of 4 versions produced starting with the V80, only one was built and used for research. The first versions of the type XVIII where the XVIIA and XVIIB as more research vessels. A total of 7 of these where made, 4 of the XVIIA and 3 of the XVIIB, but they where only commissioned. The last was the XVIII and where never built. Had they been built they would have greatly changed the U-Boat war in Germanys favor. If more funding and more research had been made the sciencetists would have found a better fuel than H2O2. Check it out here http://www.uboat.net/types/walter.htm .

What about the Type XXIII? Sure it was a tiny little boat with only two torpedoes and no reloads, but it was the only Walther powered U-boat to enter service. In a way, the Type XXIII is kinda like an overgrown torpedo with a small crew (as many of you know, the Russians did and still do use H2O2 for torpedo fuel).

[Fincuan]

Originally Posted by Capt Jack Harkness

What about the Type XXIII? Sure it was a tiny little boat with only two torpedoes and no reloads, but it was the only Walther powered U-boat to enter service. In a way, the Type XXIII is kinda like an overgrown torpedo with a small crew (as many of you know, the Russians did and still do use H2O2 for torpedo fuel).

Type XXIII is the smaller "elektroboot", the little brother of type XXI. It had a normal diesel/electric drive, and the only Walther about it was the hull, which I believe was based on his work(if not designed by him).

[Herr Minger]

Where can I find thr walter Boat for u-boat SH4?

[gimpy117]

The speed of the german boats were impressive, but somthing tells me that they couldn't hold that for long.

basically, I don't think the boats were much more stealthy than a VIIC or IX, so sure, you could have a better shot at gettign away at 20knts in the electro boat, but eventually you will be found and you better hope your quiet.

[Frame57]

The "Walther boat" used in the game is really a type XXI, that somehow had the Walter turbine. But the XXI boats without the H2O2 turbines could acheive 17 knts submerged, which is pretty good. It was propelled by 2 SSW 2500 bhp electric motors when submerged that coupled with it's streamlined hull made these speeds available.
It was the Wa201 type XVII that was deemed the true "Walter boat" in reference to Dr. Helmuth Walter. The H202 was broken down using a catalyst to provide steam and oxygen, them mixed with water and diesel fuel to produce combustion. The system worked superbly and was not a time bomb at all. One was even used by the Royal navy after the war and it was renamed the HMS Meteorite.

[Fincuan]

Originally Posted by Frame57

The "Walther boat" used in the game is really a type XXI, that somehow had the Walter turbine.

The two boats have extremely similar hulls, so they look like twins. The one in SH4 is however supposed to be a type XVIII. As you know it was actually never completed, but its hull design was put into service as the XXI.

[Frame57]

Originally Posted by Fincuan

The two boats have extremely similar hulls, so they look like twins. The one in SH4 is however supposed to be a type XVIII. As you know it was actually never completed, but its hull design was put into service as the XXI.

I respectfully disagree a total of 62 type XXIII were completed and ebtered the war before it ended. It the 23 boat had a length of 34.7m a beam of 3m with a crew of 14. The XXI boat was twice the size with a crew of 57. My info comes from Horst Bredow founder of the U boat archive in Cuxhaven-Altenbruch. The info is dead accurate