I just had a go with the Walter boat

[Rockin Robbins]

Imagine the returns if Germany would have taken 250 U-Boats from the fruitless Atlantic campaign and transfered them to the Pacific, along with crack crews and production facilities for torpedoes and more U-Boats to Japan and Rabaul. Imagine if these 250 subs had the job of controling the choke points with the goal of hunting US subs and supply ships. The 20 knot acoustic homing torpedoes would be the star of the show. US warships would be bonus prizes in this interesting little adventure.

Suppose the Germans had had a little wider vision? I think they could have made trouble for quite awhile longer than they actually did.

[AkbarGulag]

...talk surely won't get us flamed :p

Interesting proposition. Lets say that the loss of sunk tonnage of England doesn't excel the start of the western front (that 250 boats will no longer contribute to), then it could be argued that the pacific is a hell of a place to combat a determined and trained submarine force. After all, the Japanese failed at it, whats to say the Americans wouldn't have had the same difficulty when faced with 250 U-boats. The Americans certainly didn't have vital supply lines throughout the pacific till much later in the war, but Australasia would certainly be a target for isolation. American expansion could have been hindered if they tried to 'hold' any significant number of bases in the pacific :hmm: Considering Japan was an Island nation, and their main strategic interests were in China, it may have held off the Americans from closing in on Japans home islands. If that was the case, it's safe to say India could have been seriously threatened in that scenario also.

[Takao]

Problems abound with this scenario Rockin Robbins and AkbarGulag,

Throughout the entire war Germany only produced 193 Type IXs of all types. The Type VII could not make the long trip "round the Horn" without tankers for refueling. Even the Type IXs needed a "drink" to make it. Then you had the Allies sinking the U-boats on the way to Japan. While pre-1943 the few U-boats that were sailing to patrol around Capetown encountered few troubles, U-boats sailing after mid-1943 ran a 50-50 chance of being sunk.

Moving on to logistics. How in the world could Germany provide an adequate supply of fuel and torpedoes for 250 U-boats half-a-world-away? Even constructing a production facility for torpedoes is of little use. To be of any use, all the parts of the torpedoes would have to be produced locally; and that means the gears, tubing engines, batteries, ets. Even then, the facility might reach 100-200 torpedoes a month. And thats provided an adequate supply of raw materials. During WW2 the all German torpedo production varied between 1,000 and 1,700 a month. Although, it would probably be easier to adapt(if possible) the German tubes to fire Japanese torpedoes(given that Japanese torps were roughly 2 meters longer).

Then, you have to fuel all those U-boats. Germany had a few tankers to supply the U-boats based in the Far-East, but even those were inadequate to supply the U-boats that operated there historically. The Japanese would be of little help, since their fuel supply problems are well known.

Another thing, Germany would derive no "benefit" from sending 250 U-boats to the Pacific. The only one gaining anything is Japan, as it would help her to cut-off and possibly conquer the Aussies. I don't see Germany doing this without getting something major in return. And Japan had nothing of immediate vital importance to offer.

For such a scenario to work, it had to be started well before the onset of WW2. With everything in place(the factories, fuel, munitions, and U-boats), it is a much more plausible scenario. But that means tipping of the Allies(especially the US), who would start re-armament policies much earlier in our time-line. This in turn means many more ships and planes when the US enters the war, not to mention the fact that with Germany moving into the Pacific. The US is more likely to enter the war on Great Britain's side, instead of waiting for an "overt act" by Japan.

Food for though.

I feel this strang need to play the old boardgame "Axis and Allies" or run "Hearts of Iron II" for some reason.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by pythos

Remember, the PBYs could not hear under water, they were in the air. They could not see down more than 100 meters, if that. The Walter boat would have dissapeared for the airborne scout.

But the sub has to come to periscope depth to shoot, and there were more and more blimps helping with the escort, not to mention the hunter-killer groups' fighters. Yes, if they could have had all that wonderful technology up-and-running in 1939 they would have made a huge difference.

But they couldn't.

[The Fishlord]

Originally Posted by Takao

Another thing, Germany would derive no "benefit" from sending 250 U-boats to the Pacific. The only one gaining anything is Japan, as it would help her to cut-off and possibly conquer the Aussies. I don't see Germany doing this without getting something major in return. And Japan had nothing of immediate vital importance to offer.

Well Germany did some strange things during the war. At the end of 1944 or so they apparently sent a U-boat load of bomb-grade U235 (uranium) to Japan. No benefit there, or maybe German and Japanese secret-weapon projects were a little closer-tied than anybody suspects even today.

[Takao]

It was mid-April, 1945, the U-boat was U-234. Less than one month before Germany surrendered. Germany could have sent the nuclear material earlier(probably not as much), but she didn't.

While both sides were successful on the battlefield, their co-operation was almost non-existant. They had no combined strategy that could have led to an Axis victory. It wasn't until 1943-1944 that Germany and Japan pursued a more closer relationship. Finally, in late 1944-45, Germany began giving her new technology to Japan in a "fire-sale" fashion.

Bad pun I know.

Hey folks, It's Adolph "Crazy" Hitler again! Our factories have been bombed to rubble and we're going out of business! So everything must go! We have a King Tiger, only missing a few road wheels, but it still moves. ME-262, missing one engine but it still flies. One moderatly depth-charged U-Boat. Cheap! Cheap! Cheap! Can't come to us, not a problem, we still deliever! It's all gotta go. Go! GO!

[mikeydredd]

Interesting discussion guys. And hindsight is a wonderful thing. It's great fun to explore "what if" scenarios and our hobby makes that a fascinating prospect.

Unfortunately the facts are, as ever, rather more banal.

Adolph Hitler was a European fascist dictator whose only military experience was as a corporal in the army and saw militery campaigns as primarily land battles.

His obsession and single motivating factor for going to war was the destruction of Bolshevism, ie Soviet communism in Russia and, once he had accomplished that, the creation of "living space" there for the future expansion of the German "master race".

He had virtually no understanding of the strategic importance of naval power projection on a world scale as it was irrelevant, as he saw it, to his struggle in Russia, which of course, was a land battle.

He needed a quick victorious local war so concentrated on developing weapons systems with short term tactical value, ie jet and rocket technology and consequently had very little inclination to develop long term strategic weapons systems such as nuclear weapons, as he thought he wouldn't need them. Fortunatly he chose not to develop nuclear weapons and stick them in his rockets.

He had very little strategic appreciation of the massive industial might of the US and held them in contempt.

As he saw it, there was really two wars going on at the same time. His war against Soviet Russia, and Japan's war against the US.

He fatally ignored the fact that Japan, as his ally, could have joined the struggle against Russia and, working together, probably would have defeated the soviets in 1942. It was "his" war!

And subsequently he was defeated by being at war with the two greatest industrial powers the world had ever seen. It would not have made any difference to the end result no matter how many jets, tiger tanks, rockets, subs, or anything else German industry could have made.

It took time, but they could not have won.

Which is why they lost. Thank god.

Dredd out.

[Hartmann]

Originally Posted by Zantham

Yes as Ducimus said they were underwater bombs... H2O2 is very unstable and explosive.

However the Walther boat didn't have to outrun the escorts or HK groups, they just had to go fast enough that the destroyers couldn't use their sonars to track them. Imagine chasing one of these things that had gone deep (possibly 900 feet deep?). Now its moving away from you at over 20kts. You can hear it, but when you try to catch up to it your sonar guy goes deaf. So you have to slow down again to get a bearing in case the wily uboat captain changed course, dropped a decoy, or whatever. Remember he can go 200kms at 24kts. And at any time he thinks he lost the escorts go back to regular battery propulsion to go silent. By the time he has to surface (or snorkel?) hes over 300kms away!

So it would not have been quite so easy to catch as the regular uboats. It would have brought another happy time in 1943 maybe, but its very likely the Allies would have adapted their tactics and eventually started sinking them again, tho maybe not as easily as they caught the regular uboats.

Yes, it´s the tactic used by the actual diesel electric submarines (still in use ) like kilo.

i´m sure that a good number of these boats arround england during 1942-43 could make very difficult the build of an invassion force for a second front.

Yes , allied could build a lot of ships, but it takes a lot of resources .

And if you have fidos and sonar detectors, this weapons have to deal with a 25 knts target, probably using sonar coating, antiradar coating in periscopes and snorkel, detectors and countermeasures.

How many time could take a crash dive from periscope depth for a walter boat with the drive engaged ??

[LukeFF]

Originally Posted by mikeydredd

He fatally ignored the fact that Japan, as his ally, could have joined the struggle against Russia and, working together, probably would have defeated the soviets in 1942. It was "his" war!

Two words: Khalkin Gol

[mikeydredd]

Originally Posted by LukeFF

Two words: Khalkin Gol

I think you will find that by the winter of 1941 Zhukov and many of the units he used to defend Khalkin Gol had moved west to defend Moscow, trying to stop the 2nd Pz Div, among others, from parking its tanks in Red Square. The opportunity for Japan to strike west was there. They were unwilling to take it for a host of reasons. Not least of which was the complete absence of any urging from their ally, the Germans, that they should, despite the fact that most of the Soviet army was now engaged against them. Not sound strategic thinking imho.

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

I did a little research in the Walther boats and there where a total of 4 versions produced starting with the V80, only one was built and used for research. The first versions of the type XVIII where the XVIIA and XVIIB as more research vessels. A total of 7 of these where made, 4 of the XVIIA and 3 of the XVIIB, but they where only commissioned. The last was the XVIII and where never built. Had they been built they would have greatly changed the U-Boat war in Germanys favor. If more funding and more research had been made the sciencetists would have found a better fuel than H2O2. Check it out here http://www.uboat.net/types/walter.htm .

[Torplexed]

Originally Posted by mikeydredd

I think you will find that by the winter of 1941 Zhukov and many of the units he used to defend Khalkin Gol had moved west to defend Moscow, trying to stop the 2nd Pz Div, among others, from parking its tanks in Red Square. The opportunity for Japan to strike west was there. They were unwilling to take it for a host of reasons. Not least of which was the complete absence of any urging from their ally, the Germans, that they should, despite the fact that most of the Soviet army was now engaged against them. Not sound strategic thinking imho.

Even with minimal defenders I don't think a Japanese attack on the Soviet Union would have aided Germany much. Eastern Siberia back then was a mostly trackless wilderness supplied by one slender rail line with no large cities or sources of supply, it is not suited for modern war in 1941, and even now would be a logistical nightmare to keep an army supplied in. Japan was ill-equipped to fight in the sub-Arctic as their reckless invasion of the Aleutians demonstrated. Plus, Japan badly needed oil and it wasn't until well after the war that a booming oil and gas industry was developed in Siberia. Those factories that Stalin shipped east during Operation Barbarossa were mostly resettled near the Urals. That's about 2,000 miles of endless swamps, forests and rivers from the Manchurian border. Territory the Russians could easy afford to play the space for time game with. Vladivostok would probably fall, but it was expendable. There was still the Persian overland route for Allied supplies.

[Pikes]

Vorsprung Durch Technik. You have to admire the technological leaps during wartime. From this era the Germans have acquired a fantastic reputation for solid engineering over a range of aspects. Cars, optics, electronics and so on.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Kptlt. Hellmut Neuerburg

I did a little research in the Walther boats and there where a total of 4 versions produced starting with the V80, only one was built and used for research. The first versions of the type XVIII where the XVIIA and XVIIB as more research vessels. A total of 7 of these where made, 4 of the XVIIA and 3 of the XVIIB, but they where only commissioned. The last was the XVIII and where never built. Had they been built they would have greatly changed the U-Boat war in Germanys favor. If more funding and more research had been made the sciencetists would have found a better fuel than H2O2. Check it out here http://www.uboat.net/types/walter.htm .

We'd all have a merry Christmas!:rotfl:

What does the word "they" mean? Does it mean that if the Starship Enterprise had beamed down 300 of them with crack crews (thereby allowing about 80 on patrol at sea at any one time, optomistically) the Battle of the Atlantic would have been greatly changed? Or do you make allowances for building the production facilities for these boats? Or do you make allowances for the training (virtually from scratch!) of crews from these boats? Or do you make allowances for the instability of the H2O2 propulsion system, KABOOM! They DID produce Me-163s. They were a grand but worthless gesture against fleets of over 1000 bombers. Or do you make allowances for the inability to protect any mythical production facilities long enough to produce enough of these boats to produce any results? How about the inability of the factory building to withstand British and American bombing attacks? How about the necessity to remove productive crews from the theater of war to train for months in these Rube Goldberg contraptions?

None of this was doable and the Germans could not have had a merry Christmas. They had no more choices to make which would have changed the outcome of the Battle of the Atlantic or the war. Their only choices were when would they lose and who would die in the process.

[mikeydredd]

This is the point I was trying to make. The only window of opportunity available to the Germans to win the war, or at least their part of the war, was in the late 1941- mid 1942 timescale, by knocking the Russians out. The Japanese were well placed with their armies in Manchuria to help. They didn't make the most of that opportunity. And subsequently lost the strategic initiative to the Russians and then the Americans in deciding the future conduct of the war.

Panacea weapons systems such as fancy U boats, no matter how technologically advanced, could not and did not alter that fact. An exact analogy would be their development of their Tiger tanks. Very fine weapons, far superior in many ways to anything the allies had, yet made in such small numbers that they accomplished nothing in any strategic sense, apart from tie up vast amounts of very scarce German resources, which arguably could have been better spent elsewhere.

I entirely agree with Rockin Robbins. The only thing they were then in a position to decide was how long they would keep on fighting, hoping to delay the by then inevitable conclusion of WW2, which was that they would lose. Quite simply as, strategically, they were not in a position to win it.

It could be argued that they were never in a position to "win", certainly not after the US became involved. They came closest to it in the winter of 1941, and then the summer of 1942. The Japanese could have helped in the winter of 1941 by tying up Russian units facing them, rather than allowing these units, lead by Zhukov, by then virtually the only Russian commander of any talent left, to be moved west to successfully defend Moscow.

And thank god for that, which is why I'm writing this in English rather than German.

Have nice day!