TMA ...rather iffy.

[Polak2]

Here below is the TMA picture with solution on enemy sub which is traveling course 89 speed 04 and range 9489.

It so happens to be nearly 99% true solution (I used "show truth" to confirm target data and its bearing and position). Moreover target sub has not changed course or speed since beginning of its trackng.

My point is that TMA does not look like conveying this. Stack is all over the place! If I was to try to get this solution just from this TMA alone I think I would be really hard pressed to place target in this very spot. What do you think?

[ET2SN]

Its TMA, not radar.

TMA is an estimated position over time based on your and your target's motion.

Travelling at 2 knots isn't doing you too many favors, btw (in terms of TMA). You want larger numbers in terms of bearing spread over the course of a leg.
Speaking of, when you change direction and speed- your TMA crew expects to see some error in the current solution. That's how they refine the solution so it fits better.

Also, remember that TMA is always in the past.

Try this, instead:

-You get your initial contact to the target.
-Maneuver the boat so you can track and close slightly on the target.
-Keep a constant course and speed for a six-to-twelve minute leg.
-Refine your solution.
-Change course by 10 to 15 degrees and/or change speed by +/- 3 knots or so.
-Keep a constant course and speed for another six-to-twelve minute leg.
-Keep refining your solution at the end of each leg.
-Rinse and repeat until you get to your firing point.


Just IMO, I'm more than happy to have a target solution that's within 1,000 yards of the target's actual position. Anything within 2-to-5 thousand yards in terms of accuracy is a shooting solution.

[FPSchazly]

Good stuff said above. Note that the TMA generally produces bearings with high rates of error compared to the ship-mounted sensors. Also, you may have been targeting the mirror contact of the submarine or a completely different target altogether. It just does not look like the correct target is being tracked here.

[Polak2]

Also, you may have been targeting the mirror contact of the submarine or a completely different target altogether. It just does not look like the correct target is being tracked here.

This is precisely my point. It just does not look or feels right. And I am tracking right target and not a mirror contact or any similar ....

Yet I am going/willing spend some more time on this and also take all notes from ET2SN to heart.

[ET2SN]

Take notes from everyone.
In the DW forum I'm talking about the game, not real life. A lot of folks have more experience than I do.

DW is one of those rare games that requires experience, intuition, and luck. You need to rely on your gut as much as your brain.

I try to play in a realistic manner. I have my TMA and sonar auto-crew "on" for about 80% of the time. Its my job to put the ship in the right position so those guys can do their thing.

If the solution looks funky, then I'll get more involved.

As you gain more experience, a lot of this stuff will become more automatic.

[Mike Abberton]

Not knowing your specific situation, this may or not help, but it also helps to get the target on as many systems as you can. Broadband (spherical and tail), Active Intercept, Hull arrays. Merge whatever data you are sure are the same source for additional points of data.

Checkout the REDBOOK here on Subsim for a very good description of how to do TMA in DW/Sub Command. It has a lot of tips on how to actually do TMA (i.e. how to manage the boat to improve TMA accuracy), not just how the TMA station works. It is available in the Dangerous Waters downloads section.

Mike

[Pisces]

While I cannot explain the difference between the short ruler and the wide bearing fan, you do not seem to have the same solution locked in the right TMA solution" compared to the "TMA solution input" display (used to move the ruler). It seems slighty off. You need to press the "Enter solution" button to make the TMA station use your altered ruler position, length and direction for future updates. That also repositions the contact marker on the nav map.

Edit: zooming out on the TMA map would have shown more of how your bearing line history has developed. This is too zoomed in to find an explanation.

[Polak2]

Edit: zooming out on the TMA map would have shown more of how your bearing line history has developed. This is too zoomed in to find an explanation.

Indeed as well. But most significant impact on that TMA was I think me changing course from 0 to roughly 270. In fact I will try to reverse to earlier save and see the difference if I keep constant course 0. Problem is though that I risk detection by getting to close to my target.

[Pisces]

Hmm, recent turn you say!?! That last line may be a false bearing. When you are in a turn the bearings of the towed array are tracked and plotted at a incorrect direction. Not until you are on a steady course and the towed array has straightened should you move the ruler to the newest line. Such in-turn bearings should be ignored.

But it still does not account for the speed at that distance if show truth is verifying it's position.

[Polak2]

So here are two shots of the test I made loading very initial stage of this scenario. I did not change my course nor speed.
Detection of S03 went without special problems speed was initially determined from DEMON as 3kts but then corrected to 4kts.
This is all it went well.

The first shot is the presumed TMA solution based on several S03 bearings


Above TMA stack looks pretty decent but apparently range and heading of the target is totally wrong.
This is the position of the TMA arrow according to TRUTH. I am afraid it does not look like something one would be able to deduce from TMA.



And this was my original point of this topic.

[ET2SN]

Right.

TMA will require you to REFINE your solution as you track the contact.
Again, its not radar. It takes time and some guess work on your (and your auto crew's) part.

You're tracking the relative motion of BOTH platforms, which is why your speed is a bit low. As it is now, you're both effectively standing still.

That can throw a lot of error into the TMA data you're working with.

Instead, look at what you already KNOW about your contact:

-He's moving slowly. Three knots is a very comfortable pace if you're walking, nevermind driving a sub.
In the big picture, he's not moving at all and can thought of as a point source.

If your goal is only tracking, you already know enough.

If your goal is to take a shot, remember that your fish move fast and their seeker cone is pretty wide. Your task is to have your fish go active when the contact is a little ahead of the seeker cone, say 3-5 thousand yards or so.

[Pisces]

Like I said. You are putting the ruler on lines that are recorded while the towed array is in the turn. Those are pointing in the wrong direction. Unfortunately the game does not allow to remove individual lines and leave the valid ones in the screen. Instead one has to make a mental note of them. From the time you start the turn until the time the end of the towed array is between the time marks on the new heading you shoud not put the ruler on those lines.

You seem to have the towed array extended all the way. You can make due with a shorter TA. I usually extend it only a 3rd of the way. It shortens this time tremendously and reduced bottom dragging.

And important also, you need to have the ruler on lines before and after the turn to get a correct track. One of the two will not give you a unique solution. So try again with a longer dotstack timeframe.

[p7p8]

My video from training scenario Sub vs Sub.
(sorry but description in mission is in polish language)

It shows how to do TMA work:

1) Focusing mainly on enemy contact!
2) TMA for civilians - only basic for situation picture.
4) Enemy sub changes course, depth and speed!
5) Changing ownship course for better TMA work
6) Engaging and clearing datum
7) Replay for truth and TMA picture

Enemy sub was random selected (from Akula II, Rubis, Swiftsure).

This video is answer "why all screens in this topic cannot give you good TMA solution"

BTW I don't like play with manual TMA - in MP almost always I have turned autocrew ON (but basic knowledge is helpful even with "auto").

[Polak2]

Thanks guys for all your replies.

[Pisces]

Originally Posted by p7p8

My video from training scenario Sub vs Sub.
...

Is this a mission that can be downloaded somewhere?