Tankers as priority targets

[Bubblehead1980]

Little reading to make sure getting some things accurate in my upgrade to RSRD. Seems around October/November 1943 Fremantle subs were given orders to make oil tankers priority targets. Rather sink a 3200 ton tanker than a 9000 ton freighter. Did SubPac boats follow this strategy as well? They likely encountered less tankers than Australia boats given the patrol areas and all but curious if anyone knows this? Exact dates orders went out? Havent been able to find this yet. I have included a message in the radio traffic in campaign to inform player of this. I've also boosted the renown earned for sinking tankers, especially the large ones and with new ship pack, have about 8 tankers now for a variety, including Tonan Maru No 2 and No 3 as well as the "OM" Paula Brit ankerwhich has been turned into a japanese tanker.

[propbeanie]

I don't have the dates myself, but they were a priority. I'm not sure if lurker has the documentation in his files or not... I did read it somewhere though...

[Rockin Robbins]

I don't have it but may know where to find in the the "Remember When" collection from the US Sub Vets of WWII. They're going to be mighty hard to find as the organization went dormant a few years back. Not enough survivors left to run the organization. I'll check it tonight.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

I don't have it but may know where to find in the the "Remember When" collection from the US Sub Vets of WWII. They're going to be mighty hard to find as the organization went dormant a few years back. Not enough survivors left to run the organization. I'll check it tonight.

Thanks. That is sad so few are left. As of now I have two messages. One shows up from COMSUBSOWESPAC in October 43 declaring Tankers a priority .One from COMSUBPAC in November. Would like to get definite dates if possible and change. Delete the COMSUBPAC message if they were not given such an order. I'm assuming they were, would make sense.

[cdrsubron7]

U.S. Submarine Warfare Directives The Chief of Naval Operations issued a directive on 7 December 1941 to "Execute unrestricted air and submarine warfare against Japan". The major mission assigned our submarines was the anti-ship (torpedo attack) mission. Early in the war Japanese capital ships were assigned as primary targets. Later, the priority was placed on merchant ships in order to cut off the Japanese supply of critical war materials, fuel, and food to her wide-spread ocean empire and to the home islands.
On 13 April 1944, our submarines were instructed to give priority to fleet destroyers. The purpose was to reduce the major defensive strength of Japanese combatant groups and high priority merchant shipping.
Later still, the highest priority was placed on tankers. The objective was to cut off fuel to the fleet and the Japanese home islands.

The above quote is from......https://archive.hnsa.org/doc/subsinpacific.htm

Hope this helps you out Bubblehead1980.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by cdrsubron7

The above quote is from......https://archive.hnsa.org/doc/subsinpacific.htm

Hope this helps you out Bubblehead1980.

Thank you. One of the sites I had already view though.

[Rockin Robbins]

I was looking through this list. Keep in mind that this is a list compiled by the submariners themselves and the facts in the list may be in conflict with official accounts. I'd believe the submariners as default and be right most of the time I think.

There are clues here. First of all, the order that stood out in the author's mind was the order of April 13, 1944 "Until further notice give fleet destroyers priority over maru types as targets for submarine attacks." And later is the observation that USS Flasher sank more tankers than any other submarine in the war.

Well, I happen to have an autographed copy of "War Patrols of the USS Flasher" by William R McCants. If anyone would say something about orders to sink tankers, it will be in this book. It's hardcover paper, so no digital searching there, but then you can't autograph a digital file...... I'd say I'd rather have what I have.
Stand by. This will take awhile.

It appears the "Remember When" index has vanished from the Internet. Paul Wittmer entrusted Charles Hinman of the Bowfin Museum in Hawaii to perpetuate his site. Hinman made a few half-heated attempts to reformat the whole shebang, never really did any meaningful work there and then abandoned the domain, www.silentservice.us. What a shameful act. Hope he is no longer working for the Bowfin Museum. He doesn't deserve to work for an organization honoring US submarine veterans, having abandoned a sacred trust.

I believe I have the entire US Submarine Veterans of World War II website, which has also died, archived on one of my hard drives. I'm thinking bringing all that home to Subsim might be appropriate, especially if we allow public browsing of these dead websites by the submariners themselves. They deserve to live again.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

I was looking through this list. Keep in mind that this is a list compiled by the submariners themselves and the facts in the list may be in conflict with official accounts. I'd believe the submariners as default and be right most of the time I think.

There are clues here. First of all, the order that stood out in the author's mind was the order of April 13, 1944 "Until further notice give fleet destroyers priority over maru types as targets for submarine attacks." And later is the observation that USS Flasher sank more tankers than any other submarine in the war.

Well, I happen to have an autographed copy of "War Patrols of the USS Flasher" by William R McCants. If anyone would say something about orders to sink tankers, it will be in this book. It's hardcover paper, so no digital searching there, but then you can't autograph a digital file...... I'd say I'd rather have what I have.
Stand by. This will take awhile.

It appears the "Remember When" index has vanished from the Internet. Paul Wittmer entrusted Charles Hinman of the Bowfin Museum in Hawaii to perpetuate his site. Hinman made a few half-heated attempts to reformat the whole shebang, never really did any meaningful work there and then abandoned the domain, www.silentservice.us. What a shameful act. Hope he is no longer working for the Bowfin Museum. He doesn't deserve to work for an organization honoring US submarine veterans, having abandoned a sacred trust.

I believe I have the entire US Submarine Veterans of World War II website, which has also died, archived on one of my hard drives. I'm thinking bringing all that home to Subsim might be appropriate, especially if we allow public browsing of these dead websites by the submariners themselves. They deserve to live again.

Nice. May have to add the Flasher book to my library! I agree, I'd rather have the book as well.



From my reading(both online and books by submariners. I recall Admiral Calvert in his book Silent Running mentioning Christie had changed priority targets to tankers in late 43, before the Jack arrived in Fremantle and her "tanker sweep" in Feb 1944) SW Pacific units focused on tankers as of late 44. The Destroyer order seems to be a temporary one given to SubPac boats, perhaps in the run up to the major offensive's planned for summer and fall of 44.This would make sense, as Fremantle boats would likely encounter the most tankers and fleet was on the move in central pacific.

However, in the overall strategy it seems would make more sense for all boats to focus on tankers, aside from the temporary order. Seems I recall reading about subpac boats focusing on tankers as well when encountered.

Basically I'm trying to make sure am as accurate as possible with dates as I plan to include in patrol orders on or after certain dates that tankers are priority targets in addition to raising renown awarded for sinking tankers, radio traffic, etc.


That is rather aggravating the individual mentioned did not take care of that which was entrusted to him.

Yes, if you have the site archived definitely should put it on subsim to be preserved and shared with everyone.

[CaptBones]

Roscoe, "United States Submarine Operations in World War II", gives the last eleven pages of Chapter 23 to a detailed accounting of the "tanker war" against Japan. He identifies every tanker acknowledged to have been sunk by submarines, including the date, location, and by which boat.

Regardless of any published personal memories or undocumented evidence, COMSUBPAC Operation Plan published June 24th, 1943, prioritized targets in the following order: aircraft carrier (CV); battleship (BB); auxiliary carrier (ACV); oil tanker (AO); any man-of-war larger than a DD; troop transport (AP); cargo carrier (AK); destroyer (DD). Tankers were #4 on the hit list up until April 1944.

Although COMSUBSOWESPAC was not under the command of CINCPACFLT or COMSUBPAC, it is very likely RADM Christie would have known of this and could have followed that guidance in his own Op Orders.

Again according to Roscoe, Ch. 26; the April 13th, 1944 directive to give priority to destroyers came directly from COMINCH, Admiral King. It gave destroyers priority over merchant vessels of all types, but below carriers, battleships and cruisers; his directive applied to all U.S. naval forces.

[Rockin Robbins]

I agree with that priorities list. Imagine the impact of the order to prioritize DDs must have made, especially to the crewmembers not conning the boat! Everybody knew that when tangling with DDs the advantages were all to the DD.

Of course the Japanese weren't as tenacious in pursuing subs as the game is, most of the time. But if you were bright enough to shoot a torpedo at them you could bet they might take that a bit personally and all bets on them calling off the hunt were likely over.

Your best shot at a DD was if they were never aware of your presence until the boom!

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

I agree with that priorities list. Imagine the impact of the order to prioritize DDs must have made, especially to the crewmembers not conning the boat! Everybody knew that when tangling with DDs the advantages were all to the DD.

Of course the Japanese weren't as tenacious in pursuing subs as the game is, most of the time. But if you were bright enough to shoot a torpedo at them you could bet they might take that a bit personally and all bets on them calling off the hunt were likely over.

Your best shot at a DD was if they were never aware of your presence until the boom!

I'm sure they thought it was a crazy order. Suppose that is what sent Dealey off on his whack a destroyer campaign? lol Down The Throat shots were pretty effective. I was actually just reading over O Kane's book about Wahoo for reference to some traffic adding in late 42 in solomons where Wahoo conducted her second patrol under her first commander. I browsed forward and read about the Wewak encountered on third patrol with Morton when they made the first successful down the throat shot. balls.

[Rockin Robbins]

Actually, Morton did not shoot the first down the throat shots.

According to Bill Wolfe, editor of the US Sub Vets of World War II newsletter, Polaris, "The first "down the throat" shot was fired by Pompano on Jan. 17, 1942."

Dealey went off his rocker on a bent-for-hell destroyer tirade because Admiral Christie egged him on, actually going on a cruise with Dealey. Dealey was so hepped up on impressing the admirial he ended up losing his boat to a captured American minesweeper! Yes, down the throat shots were effective if they hit their targets, but they were suicide if you missed. A deep runner, a bad exploder, an alert DD and you were just dead. It was not a good exchange, a submarine for a destroyer.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

Actually, Morton did not shoot the first down the throat shots.

According to Bill Wolfe, editor of the US Sub Vets of World War II newsletter, Polaris, "The first "down the throat" shot was fired by Pompano on Jan. 17, 1942."

Dealey went off his rocker on a bent-for-hell destroyer tirade because Admiral Christie egged him on, actually going on a cruise with Dealey. Dealey was so hepped up on impressing the admirial he ended up losing his boat to a captured American minesweeper! Yes, down the throat shots were effective if they hit their targets, but they were suicide if you missed. A deep runner, a bad exploder, an alert DD and you were just dead. It was not a good exchange, a submarine for a destroyer.

I was aware Pompano was first to try a down the throat shot, but Wahoo was the first successful DTT shot from what I've read.

Sounds like Dealey had contempt for Japanese ASW vessels, clouded judgement and all.