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Old 04-05-2011, 07:19 PM   #1
Gargamel
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Default ACTUV Scoring Structure

From the Manual:

Quote:
You LOSE a point for every 10 seconds you spend at full throttle. (This interval is scaled for progressively lower speeds. As speed decreases, the time between point deductions increases.)
From Neal's FAQ:

Quote:
- fuel pts are decremented 1 point for every 10 seconds at max speed; the time to lose a point increases as the inverse of the square of the speed / max speed
I took this info and charted it out. I wanted to see which sub's were penalized the most for using higher speeds.

The following chart shows Pt's penalized per ten seconds of fuel usage vs ship speed. The lower the number, the less the penalty:



If you can't see it, the Remora and Gator have the same line.

Data:




As you can see, certain subs get a far greater fuel penalty at increasingly higher speeds.

Then from the manual:

Quote:
• In most missions you RECEIVE 200 points for every minute you hold the SSK on MF /EO/IR/or Radar.
• In most missions you RECEIVE 300 points for every minute you hold the SSK on High Frequency Active Sonar (HF).
• If you hold the SSK on multiple sensors, you get the combined points for all sensors that hold the contact.
So then if we look at our Speed Penalty / minute vs type of Sensor, we get these charts:



This shows how many points per minute we get for various speed levels after taking the penalty/10 seconds into consideration.

So if you read the rules, You get the HF and MF bonuses for using both sensors. So (and I know this is making you nuc sim fan boys holding your head muttering obscenities) if you leave your Active sonar on after you have established contact, you will be practically doubling your score.

This does not take into consideration the pings per minute penalty (You get penalized 1 point per ping), but when you are getting a base of 200 pts for MF tracking, I can't imagine it would take more than 6-10 pings per minute to maintain contact. A fair trade in my opinion. I could get into speed vs MF bonus vs pings per minute, but the graphs would end up 3 dimensional and a real pain to describe here, so I decided to skip it and assume the amount of pings required to hold contact would be the same across all platforms, up to their maximum usable speed, so the differences would be negligible.

So looking at the most efficient ACTUV's, Remora and Gator, we discover that the Gator does not have an active MF system at all. So it looks like the Remora has the potential to be the highest scoring ACTUV.

But...

That's not considering the SSK's actions. If it reacts adversely to the active sonar, then you may end up losing more on the Remora since you will be running around at higher speeds, while the Gator usually just sits behind the SSK using its long range HF. If the Remora can keep the SSK in HF range and under it's usable speed cap (15 kts), I think the Remora would be the best ACTUV, based on the scoring system.

So what's all this mean? Well basically it shows that finding and holding contact is far more valuable than fuel conservation or EM stealth. Getting 200 points per minute for maintaining contact at long range is a far greater bonus than the 6 points per minute fuel penalty and the (guesstimating) 12 points per minute continuous sonar usage penalty. Even worse case scenario, you are earning about 182 pts/min for just maintaining contact, where as a quieter, more fuel efficient approach just accrues fuel penalties.

Quote:
You start the game with 2000 Bonus points: 1000 bonus points for MF High Frequency Active Sonar (MF) and 1000 bonus points for fuel.
To be complete, this means you can actively ping 1000 times, assuming 12 pings a minute (1 every 5 seconds), or actively run your sonar for 83 minutes and 20 seconds before losing that bonus. You can then run at Full speed for 2 hours and 47 minutes before running out of fuel bonus.
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Last edited by Gargamel; 04-05-2011 at 08:05 PM.
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Old 04-05-2011, 07:30 PM   #2
Molon Labe
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Thanks for that!

I'm a bit concerned about the MF active rule... It doesn't really give you an incentive not to use it a lot... I wonder if that's as intended.
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Old 04-05-2011, 07:56 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon Labe View Post
Thanks for that!
No prob. I love crunching numbers like this.

Quote:
I'm a bit concerned about the MF active rule... It doesn't really give you an incentive not to use it a lot... I wonder if that's as intended.
I got thinking about that too. I wondered, like you, how accurate the scoring system is to the intended real world application of ACTUV. Google is my friend, Excerpts from the GAO website:

https://www.fbo.gov/utils/view?id=2c...f8de5a09560d70

Quote:
The Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW) Continuous Trail Unmanned Vessel (ACTUV) program seeks to develop and demonstrate an independently deploying unmanned surface vessel optimized to provide continuous overt trail of threat submarines
Notice the highlighted part. That screams using your active sonar.

Also:

Quote:
It is not intended as an ASW search capability. ACTUV relies on conventional force structure to provide a target cue, but then prevents those search assets from being tied up in intensive trail operations.
As the missions have been showing, the idea is for conventional assets (SOSUS, SSN, SSBN, ASW, etc) to make contact with the target, and then hand over control to the ACTUV platform. This explains why the active sonar penalty is so small. Since the asset has handed off to ACTUV, there is little threat to the original asset, so letting them know they've been found is of little concern. In the short term at least.

That also probably rules out the anti-narcosub (ANSW? ) theory we had before. Once a primary asset has contact with a narcosub, they are very unlikely to hand off to a drone for contact. Most likely they will either prosecute right then, or hand off to another asset to immediately prosecute. The only scenario I can think of where ACTUV would play a role in ANSW, is where a SSN sits off the the South American Coast, hands off to ACTUV, and let's the drone track the target till they get into waters that fall within US jurisdiction.


Quote:
• Operations from a shore base
• High system reliability for long duration missions in the harsh maritime environment without opportunity for underway human maintenance or repair

......

• Sufficient range for independent theater or global deployment
• Extended loiter endurance to support forward operational prepositioning
• Speed, maneuverability, and endurance advantage over target set
So this also explains why the fuel penalty is so low. These things are supposed to be designed to have global range. I'm really curious as to the power plant now. Endurance over a SSK after deploying from half a world away? Impressive for a non-nuclear platform.
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Old 04-05-2011, 08:02 PM   #4
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In that case it does make the Shark's design rather odd, since it doesn't exactly have an MF setup that would facilitate constant tracking. It's almost impossible for it to keep a target locked up with the MF. The others that possess an MF sonar, though, certainly do seem like constant-ping platforms, especially given the limited (and probably realistic) HF capability.
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Old 04-05-2011, 08:14 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by CCIP View Post
especially given the limited (and probably realistic) HF capability.
Yeah, I wondered about the gator's HF range. 3k? I know I don't know a lot about the systems, but I would have to imagine it's something revolutionary, akin to the AEGIS radar system in it's power output. Slapping on even a 90' or 120' forward looking MF active, while even reducing the HF to 2k would make that the ideal platform.
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Old 04-06-2011, 12:36 AM   #6
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Hm, by the way, I'm not seeing a multiple sensor bonus for maintaining both HF and MF at the same time while playing with the Remora here. I do get points for establishing MF contact, but continuous pinging only takes away the 1 point per ping. Are you sure that actually counts as continuous contact? My understanding is that sonar pings are treated as "snapshots", which they are, and will only give you points provided you don't have the sub on HF...
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Old 04-06-2011, 01:15 AM   #7
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I've noticed some discrepancies from the written scoring rules too. I could only do the math with what they provided. I'll run sone tests tommorow and see how it compares. I'd recommend others do the same.

Here's what we'd need to confirm:

HF contacts earn 300 points per minute.
MF contacts earn 200 points per minute.
And the fuel penalty fit the curves as they describe.

For fuel, just run at high TC for an hour at each speed setting and compare your results to my theoretical chart. Even without clarification, we should be able to reverse engineer the scoring engine.

But unless the contact bonuses start dropping to around 50 pts Per minute, the conclusion still applies. Sustaining contact is still vastly more desirable than EM stealth or fuel efficiency.

And what's more important than maintaining contact is not getting too close to another ship. That's listed as -1000 pts PLUS another -1000 pts every 5 minutes.
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Old 04-06-2011, 01:06 PM   #8
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Initial test with the Seahorse running at 20 kts for 30 minutes (should produce just shy of a 125 pt penalty) have been showing results pretty damn close to the epxected result. (123, 124, 124 in the three trials I ran, the error could just be user reaction time to scenario starting up, and the inaccuracy of the clock (1 minute resolution)).

So Even if the contact bonus is not as big as described, as noted unless it is less than 50 pts per minute, the relative value of it does not change. So assuming about 12 pings per minute to maintain contact, here is the priority of your mission objectives:

1) Maintaining a safe distance from other surface vessels
2) Establishing and maintaining HF contact
3) Establishing and maintaining IR/EO/Radar Contact with regard to MF Stealth
4) Establishing and maintaining MF contact, without regard to MF stealth
5) Fuel efficiency

Let me explain 3 & 4. The bonuses for MF, IR, EO, or Radar contact do not seem to stack like the HF one does. So, if the SSK surfaces in front of you, you have contact with it with a sensor other than MF, so you can turn off MF. But if it is submerged, MF is the only sensor (other than HF) that can pick it up, so you have to turn it on.
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Old 04-06-2011, 01:09 PM   #9
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12 pings per minute? Just curious, are you doing single pings for that? IIRC, setting it to continuous ping only produces a couple of pings per minute....
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Old 04-06-2011, 01:26 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CCIP View Post
12 pings per minute? Just curious, are you doing single pings for that? IIRC, setting it to continuous ping only produces a couple of pings per minute....
Kinda a mix of both. I figured I'd use the most extreme reasonable penalty I could imagine, just so there wouldn't be any question about 'padding' teh use of the MF. You can't even match the HF bonus since it's built into the math (+200 vs +300, and you can't have -101 pings per minute, so....)

But there may be a point where pings/minute penalty is less than the fuel efficiency penalty, and that would differ for each platform. But looking at the fuel penalty per minute, even if we consider the opposite, 4 pings /minute, it's only in sprint situations where the fuel penalty surpasses the ping penalty.



That's fuel penatly per minute. At the extreme (IMO) end of pings per minute (4), Your MF will probably be useless anyways if the fuel penalty is now worse than the ping penalty.

If you can come up with a chart that shows the active ppm for each platform, please do! I would like to think that we could assume active sonar = constant contact bonus.
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Old 04-06-2011, 01:32 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CCIP View Post
Hm, by the way, I'm not seeing a multiple sensor bonus for maintaining both HF and MF at the same time while playing with the Remora here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gargamel
The bonuses for MF, IR, EO, or Radar contact do not seem to stack like the HF one does.


According to the manual, every sensor should stack...
I'm kind of hoping none do. I'd hate to have to ping every minute to max my score for a contact I'm holding with no problems in HF.
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Old 04-06-2011, 01:55 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Molon Labe View Post


According to the manual, every sensor should stack...
Well if this is true, we should try to force him to the surface ASAP. And then keep him there for that would be a 1200 pt per minute bonus. And at that, damn the neutral ships, that's only -1000pts every 5 min.

Quote:
I'm kind of hoping none do. I'd hate to have to ping every minute to max my score for a contact I'm holding with no problems in HF.
I don't see keeping active sonar on as a major problem.
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Old 04-06-2011, 01:55 PM   #13
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Decided to contribute instead of comment.

This is on Cat and Mouse and the scoring structure seems slightly different.

Time Score Sensor
1400 unk. PING!!!
1402 2395 HF
1403 2595 HF
.......2695 HF
1404 2895 HF
........2995 HF
1405 3195 HF
........3295 HF
1406 3495 HF
1407 3695 HF
1408 3895 HF
1409 4095 HF
........4195 PING!!!
1410 4394 HF
........4494

So it's giving 200 per minute of HF in this mission and 100 per minute of MF contact, but you are in contact on MF for 5 minutes after the ping.
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Old 04-06-2011, 04:56 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon Labe View Post
Decided to contribute instead of comment.

This is on Cat and Mouse and the scoring structure seems slightly different.

Time Score Sensor
1400 unk. PING!!!
1402 2395 HF
1403 2595 HF
.......2695 HF
1404 2895 HF
........2995 HF
1405 3195 HF
........3295 HF
1406 3495 HF
1407 3695 HF
1408 3895 HF
1409 4095 HF
........4195 PING!!!
1410 4394 HF
........4494

So it's giving 200 per minute of HF in this mission and 100 per minute of MF contact, but you are in contact on MF for 5 minutes after the ping.
So.....

If we get a 100 pts /minute for 5 minutes per ping, then fuel effeciency becomes more valuable than..... hmm...

I originally thought of this in a linear fashion.... hmmm.... But I think i figured this out.

Here's an algorithm I made for this. To be honest though, most of us just do this intuitively.




Some of you will argue that HF should be before MF. But since there is not a great reason why you can't establish MF contact once every 5 minutes, then return to HF tracking, MF should be a higher priority than HF. MF is a once every 5 minute thing (at least according to ML's number so far, and my numbers are starting to match up), while HF is constant.
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Old 04-06-2011, 06:41 PM   #15
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I haven't tested for it, but I'd have to imagine HF contact is also per 5 minutes. Or any other sensor for that matter. As long as the light is still flashing, you're getting the points (or if the light would be flashing, but is steady because you hold contact on another sensor).
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