Realism- and gameplay-related hardcode fixes for SH3.EXE

[h.sie]

@sharkbit: 80 downloads of V15F3 and no reported problems so far for more than 3 weeks. I think V15F3 is stable, it's just that I'm too lazy to update the 1st page of this Fred.

[Magic1111]

Originally Posted by h.sie

@Magic: I like your idea and have already programmed it. In forthcoming V15G you'll have two messages "fog sighted" and "fog disappearing".

Hi h.sie !

Glad you like my idea !

Many thanks and best regards,
Magic

[LGN1]

Hi,

now that Stiebler has modded BDU's reply to status reports, it might be possible to further improve the radio traffic. E.g., improving the status reports by adding further information: fuel status, damage status, crew status,... Random answers from the BDU would be great, too. For instance, orders to return home, orders to change position (Patrol further south/north/east/west), or just some more generic answers.

Some more varied answers on contact reports might also be great. E.g., orders to not attack but shadow the convoy for x hours and send status reports every y hours...

Cheers, LGN1

[h.sie]

@LGN1: I had the same idea, but I think, random messages are only "ear-candy" and thus not of highest priority. In my opinion the messages must be really gameplay- and patrol-relevant and must agree (and may not conflict) with the main order one gets at the start of a mission.

To collect all relevant data (crew morale and health, damage status, course of enemy convoy?) is maybe possible but very code intensive and it's also a lot of work to generate the correct BDU response from that. Is it worth the effort? Are there things of higher importance?

My gameplay experience is too low (equal to zero to be honest), so I wouldn't even know how to start to mod these messages, so I need CONCRETE ideas in pseudo-code how to mod messages (e.g my only idea so far and already programmed for Stieblers BDU-Messages V2):

en_menu.txt:
4197=Message received. Continue patrol ....

Idea in pseudo-code:

If (HullIntegrity < 50%) THEN
4197=Return to base
ELSE
4197=Message received. Continue patrol ....
ENDIF

-----

I often see myself thinking about what we have so far: We have Sergbutos Wolfpack Uboats, and we can now change BDU messages. Maybe it is possible to clone and modify the AI of Sergbutos Wolfpack Uboats?? I think you know what I mean: A huge project, maybe without any success.

h.sie

[h.sie]

During my jog I had an idea, but I still cannot say if it's a good one or not. If I'm informed right, wolfpack Uboats didn't see each other (with one exception: "Thooomsen, mensch Leute, das ist Thooomsen!").

So we don't need any visible AI-Uboat models at all. So what is required to simulate a virtual wolfpack attack?

• We must be able to apply damage to surface ships in render range (maybe possible) in order to simulate torpedo hits.
• We must be able to send special BDU-messages at any time (maybe possible) in order to simulate BDU coordinating an attack.
• We must be able to analyse the contact report of the player Sub (maybe possible) in order to inform the BDU of an convoy.
• We need to program an (simple) AI for the BDU to coordinate the attack and for some virtual wolfpack subs sending some random success- or contact messages.

This is just an idea. None of those 4 points above is impossible if one is able to modify the sh3.exe. I don't want to make anyone hungry. But I'm very much interested to start to see what is possible and what is not.

[coronas]

So we don't need any visible AI-Uboat models at all. So what is required to simulate a virtual wolfpack attack?

Escorts searching and attacking virtual-Uboats?

[h.sie]

Good point. I suspected that I've forgotten somthing very important.

[Magic1111]

Originally Posted by h.sie

During my jog I had an idea, but I still cannot say if it's a good one or not. If I'm informed right, wolfpack Uboats didn't see each other (with one exception: "Thooomsen, mensch Leute, das ist Thooomsen!").

So we don't need any visible AI-Uboat models at all. So what is required to simulate a virtual wolfpack attack?

• We must be able to apply damage to surface ships in render range (maybe possible) in order to simulate torpedo hits.
• We must be able to send special BDU-messages at any time (maybe possible) in order to simulate BDU coordinating an attack.
• We must be able to analyse the contact report of the player Sub (maybe possible) in order to inform the BDU of an convoy.
• We need to program an (simple) AI for the BDU to coordinate the attack and for some virtual wolfpack subs sending some random success- or contact messages.

This is just an idea. None of those 4 points above is impossible if one is able to modify the sh3.exe. I don't want to make anyone hungry. But I'm very much interested to start to see what is possible and what is not.

All this sounds very interesting....!

I´m looking forward to more information and maybe Test-Results !

Best regards,
Magic

[Hitman]

During my jog I had an idea, but I still cannot say if it's a good one or not. If I'm informed right, wolfpack Uboats didn't see each other (with one exception: "Thooomsen, mensch Leute, das ist Thooomsen!").

So we don't need any visible AI-Uboat models at all. So what is required to simulate a virtual wolfpack attack?

• We must be able to apply damage to surface ships in render range (maybe possible) in order to simulate torpedo hits.
• We must be able to send special BDU-messages at any time (maybe possible) in order to simulate BDU coordinating an attack.
• We must be able to analyse the contact report of the player Sub (maybe possible) in order to inform the BDU of an convoy.
• We need to program an (simple) AI for the BDU to coordinate the attack and for some virtual wolfpack subs sending some random success- or contact messages.

This is just an idea. None of those 4 points above is impossible if one is able to modify the sh3.exe. I don't want to make anyone hungry. But I'm very much interested to start to see what is possible and what is not.

This idea was discussed long ago, I remember that

The main problem is that the good part of wolfpack tactics wass that when an UBoat attacked a convoy, it inmediately triggered a response from the escorts and as such opened a gap for the other Uboats in the screen. While not always were there several Uboats around the convoy attacking at the exact same time (Only rarely in fact, as BDU coordination and the slow nature of sailing couldn't amount to that), escorts also couldn't afford to stay for so long keeping submerged boats under and had to race again to the convoy.

Sergbuto already managed to add AI Uboats to some convoys, which provide contact radio reports and appear and engage the convoy when the player gets near. The main problem is still that the UBoats do not submerge, they are always at peri depth.

The real breakthrough for this game would be therefore to add some kind of submarine AI. Do that and all other things will come by themselves ...

And idea (which I already suggested some time ago):

1) Somehow modify the airbases to allow them to spawn AI Uboats, which would mean wolfpack support based on your contact report

2) Start from the AI/code of the airplane (Maybe clone the AI in the memory and duplicate it but modified??) and invert the heights to negative values, so that altitude is changed for depth. With some studying, we could probably make the "inverted airplanes" come at high speed to the convoy and submerge (Instead of making an air dive) to shoot, then surface (instead of climb) to head away at high speed.

[LGN1]

IIRC, Iambecomelife worked on AI U-boats, but never made any comment about it. He just showed pictures in the screenshot thread It would be great if he could share some of his findings.

As others have pointed out, the crucial thing about AI U-boats is that they should attract/distract the escorts. Not necessarily sink ships.

My rough idea would be:

1. You make contact with a convoy and shadow it until you know the course.

2. You send a contact message which contains your guess of the convoy's course (not the course that is sent in-game currently.) This could be done via the torpedo dials.

3. Depending on time, your position, and a random factor, BDU answers:

a) Go ahead and attack.

b) Shadow convoy and resend message later.

c) Shadow convoy. BDU also orders U-xxx to intercept convoy.

In case of c) an AI U-boat from Sergbuto is put at a position in front of the convoy (based on your current position and the course you sent). If your guess was right the convoy will meet the AI sub and it will draw the attention of the escorts.

In case b) you continue shadowing and after sending the message after x minutes again, BDU will answer again with a) - c).

In case a), well, you try to attack

I guess this would be a good solution. The player can influence the appearance of AI U-boats and he/she has an incentive to shadow convoys and not just attack as soon as possible.

What would be required:

- Pointers to your position and maybe the in-game date.

- Pointers to the AOB and target speed dial (for sending the convoy's course and speed).

- A method to identify and move a specified unit in the campaign.scr file.

- A way to allow the player to send more than one contact message for the same contact (if that's not possible one has to omit option b) ).

Cheers, LGN1

[LGN1]

Concerning status reports:

You are right, h.sie, that it's mainly ear-candy. However, I think it would add quite a bit to the game. In my opinion a status report should at least contain the current information plus:

- Wind speed (indicating weather)
- Fuel status
- Rough damage report based on hull status (minor damage, medium damage, severe damage)

A possible response would be:

if (hull < xx% or fuel < y%)
return home
else
- a few different messages with the meaning 'Carry on...'. Just to avoid the same reply. Players can later change the phrases according to their taste.

- with a small probability a message: 'After finishing your current orders, continue your patrol further north/south/east/west.

As already mentioned, it's mainly ear-candy and it's up to each player whether he wants to obey these orders. Nevertheless, I think it would add a bit more immersion to the radio traffic.

Cheers, LGN1

PS: I'm aware that you can achieve something similar with SH3 Commander, however, in this case you always get the same message again and again when you send a status report during the same playing session.

[Stiebler]

NYGM already incorporates AI Sergbuto's AI U-boats, spawned randomly from some convoys, and they provide an excellent diversion for the escorts. As the player closes a convoy which is being attacked, you see constant flashes, and the escorts are all over the place, frequently damaged. In fact a lot of the damage seems to have been caused by convoy ships firing on each other(!), and you see burning and sinking merchant ships.

This part of a wolf-pack attack, then, is already complete. The only real problem is that it is not always possible to reload a game that has been saved after a wolf-pack attack.

Any further contribution to the game can really only be eye/ear-candy.

Stiebler.

[h.sie]

Concerning Stieblers post above:

For my private GWX installation, I have replaced most of the GWX surfaced submarines by Sergbutos AI-Submarines. Unfortunately, I have no time to see if that works in a mission. I only tested it in a single-mission and the result was great - see Stieblers description above. What a battle.

But that's a static solution I think. Every time a convoy (with AI-Subs scripted into) comes in render range, the AI-subs begin to attack, independent of your contact report or any BDU coordination. They always find the convoy, because they are scripted into the convoy.

I will look into airbases and see if it is possible to spawn AI-Subs instead of aircraft. These airbases could be placed in the ocean there where all the wolfpack subs have been during the war.

[h.sie]

@LGN1: The problem by considering fuel level for BDU messages is that I also have to consider the presence/non-presence of U-Tankers and suppliers. This seems to be trivial from the players point of view, but not from the programmers point of view.

Random messages like "patrol further south" would only make sense if I also test, if there currently is ocean (and not an island) in the south of the Sub. This is also not trivial from the programmers point of view, and in my opinion too much effort for some ear-candy.

To be honest: If I really find time to play in the future and read a command like "patrol further south" - knowing that it is ear-candy only without any further meaning, I would not follow this command. So it is useless for me.

[irish1958]

Originally Posted by h.sie

@LGN1: The problem by considering fuel level for BDU messages is that I also have to consider the presence/non-presence of U-Tankers and suppliers. This seems to be trivial from the players point of view, but not from the programmers point of view.

Random messages like "patrol further south" would only make sense if I also test, if there currently is ocean (and not an island) in the south of the Sub. This is also not trivial from the programmers point of view, and in my opinion too much effort for some ear-candy.

To be honest: If I really find time to play in the future and read a command like "patrol further south" - knowing that it is ear-candy only without any further meaning, I would not follow this command. So it is useless for me.

I would think that the presence of the U-tankers would not be a significant problem, as they were infrequently near an area where wolf-packs engaged convoys, only present for a brief time, and usually sunk anyway.

SH3 CMDR already allows for random responses from BDU to your radio messages. For example, one can have the response of "Good work; redeploy one grid South," or anything else you wish, generated when you send a patrol report of a successful sinking.
I am not sure what is possible with a convoy report, however, of if it can be correlated with the idea of the AI subs.