Owning the young mind

[Skybird]

Steve,

we did not always agree on everything in past years while on most things we probably do, but sometimes I just love your nerve-killingly patient, polite style.

[Rockstar]

I may have been wrong to assume certain dictators were atheist. But I think we're are closer in agreement than what may appear. I think you say religion is the cause. I say its the people who use it as an excuse to carry out criminal acts. We should be smarter than the monkey and know better than to follow leaders or groups which accuse, persecute and kill others because of what some book, political or religious leader says. But the herd is gullible and easily manipulated. Nevertheless they are responsible for their actions.

As for one who does think there is a metaphysical being who put it all together. How we relate to this world and most especially the concern we express for our fellow humans who are all also made in the image of God, vastly affects the quality of the part of our being that persists after the death of our bodies.

Even Buddhists, who dont believe in the divine can be just as manipulative and cruel. But I dont blame Buddhists or Buddhism I blame the individual.

"Because he was my teacher, I harboured a fear that if I resisted his desires, I would be exiled -- I would lose the Dharma," one woman said in the report, referring to her spiritual teaching and practice.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/buddhist-group-to-investigate-sexual-misconduct-claims-against-spiritual-leader-1.4001578





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“The human mind is not capable of grasping the Universe. We are like a little child entering a huge library. The walls are covered to the ceilings with books in many different tongues. The child knows that someone must have written these books. It does not know who or how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. But the child notes a definite plan in the arrangement of the books - a mysterious order which it does not comprehend, but only dimly suspects.” - Albert Einstien

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

I may have been wrong to assume certain dictators were atheist. But I think we're are closer in agreement than what may appear. I think you say religion is the cause.

No, I don't. I say sometimes it is and sometimes it is not, but since it is a very tempting thing to abuse religion o make yourself more powerful while making yourself unavailable for criticism (thats then called heresy, and on that is death penalty...) , and also since a religion can - but must not always - base on a very inhumane, unfriendly ideology (compare the Aztec'S religion with the teaching of Jesus), I take the safe road and say it must always be kept on a short line, should be regarded as soetnhing of not so much pubölic interest, but poriovate interest only: keep thy relgion in your heart, in your private sphere, keep it away from ruling the state , keep the state secular and not allowing special interests taking over policy building and law creating. Then people can believe in whatever they want, as long as they obey the laws that are mandatory for everybody, without exception.

We should be smarter than the monkey and know better than to follow leaders or groups which accuse, persecute and kill others because of what some book, political or religious leader says. But the herd is gullible and easily manipulated. Nevertheless they are responsible for their actions.

And ideologies and teachings do have a motivational effect, a focussing effect.

As for one who does think there is a metaphysical being who put it all together. How we relate to this world and most especially the concern we express for our fellow humans who are all also made in the image of God vastly affects the quality of the part of our being that persists after the death of our bodies.

That is fine, as long as you do not force others to beleive that or change the rules of living together so that they comply with just your beliefs. The public space has to be neutral territory. Else you would claim your freedom to believe this and live according to it, to have overriding validity over what somebody else may beleive - and if he may believe not more than that you may be wrong. I do not have the impression you would enforce such a policy, but I just describe it as an example.

Even Buddhists, who dont believe in the divine

Thats just a word. You might be surprised. Also, there are Buddhist sects and, as I see Buddha's teachings, deformations that turn it into a superstitious FX show, which of course is just an abuse. You see, thats why I repeatedly over the past times have pointed out the similiarities between Christian mysticism and Chan/Zen. The first are much closer to the latter than many Westerners think, since not many even ever have heard of Christian mysticism. One must not travel to China or India, to find Buddha's teachings. They already have been here, since long, just in other narration, terminology. What the church made of Jesus, imo is an abuse comparable to how many sects and Buddhist lineages turn Buddhism into a ritualised belief system again, into an institutional hierarchy comparable to the church. Unforgivable. I checked out in younger years Tibetan lineages as well, and although I know about the importance for a good, experienced meditation master giving guidance and supervsision, the level of dependency and helplessness created by extreme personal cultism is alarming to me, and also often rang my psychologist alarm bells. The dangers are real.


You can live well of being a Guru, you see. The more followers you have, the richer you may become, or the more your ego feels flattered, or both.

can be just as manipulative and cruel. But I dont blame Buddhists or Buddhism I blame the individual.

It is unwise to never blame the ideology. There are humane and positive ones, there are inhumane and destructive ones. Examine them, learn about them, and then decide. And do not base your judgement on opinions their propagators hold - it is pointless to ask the pope whether the Catholic church is of good or bad for mankind and the world: its the pope, he has his skin in the game. Examine, learn, decide yourself on the grounds of reason, and observation, empiry and logic: they go hand in hand. In Zen they say: Zen spirit: always beginner's spirit. And only when you see that ideological content working for the good of yourself and the good of all, not damaging others for your own good: only then accept it and consider to live by it. The wording, the clothes it comes dressed in then, are unimportant. In principle what you then have: is the Golden Rule, with an empirical fundament.

"Because he was my teacher, I harboured a fear that if I resisted his desires, I would be exiled -- I would lose the Dharma," one woman said in the report, referring to her spiritual teaching and practice.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/buddhist-group-to-investigate-sexual-misconduct-claims-against-spiritual-leader-1.4001578

Exactly this is the problem in quite some Buddhist schooling here in the West: personal cult maintained by the gurus or lamas or Zenshos or however they may call themselves, resulting in dependency, leading to psychological and intellectual bondage. And believe me, I met quite some of them: Zen, Nyingmapa, Kagyüpa.... And only two passed my testing and so I trusted them. The first was in my teen years, a colleague of my father who educated me together with his own son, from him I also learned sword fighting, a bit of archery and all I can do in martial arts, they were Japanese; and the second man I trusted and would call a master indeed was/is a formal Zen master here in Germany. Short time after I started to attend his meetings frequently he chased me away and told me to do my own thing, he could not teach me anything anymore. And so I did. Many quotes I gave here and in past threads, are from written collections of speeches by him, I use them since over 20 years when people asked me in the morning on things before I started to throw my tennis ball against the wall to wake up those who fell asleep while chasing Nirvana.

Its very, very difficult to find a good teacher. I do not claim I was one, I only say I can teach the basics of meditation well and can lead people as far as I have come on that path, and hint them at the direction of which I think they have the best chance to find their own continuation later on. But you see, it makes no sense if peopel find a good teacher while they are not ready for one. And then, I repeatedly have heard that, read that and in the end saw it happening in my own life: once you are ready, really ready, it is as if the teacher finds you. Its strange, in a way. Like getting a sentence from the I Ging on some issue that is heavy on your mind. And later you find how stunningly perfect the judgement matched. I have no explanation for how that could be, my ratio and logic fails there. I hate and dispise astrology. I give nothing for esoteric and telling-the-future. And still: I cannot reject the empirical experience I have collected with the I Ging, and Tarot, over the past 30 years. It goes without saying, however, that we do not talk about asking for the numbers for the next lottery. A bit more subtle it certainly is, but it is as if these oracles can bite to defend themselves: when you adress them due to being bored, you get ignored, when you ask for something unimportant, they instead may shock you by referring to something importan that really is heavy on your mind, if you repeat your question too often because you did not like the reply as you interpreted it, they let you know, close the shutters and leave you alone. Quite human, I would say.

I could imagine this confession comes as a shock for some people here. Skybird, and I Ging. Ouch! LOL.

[August]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

"Forum Warriors".

https://www.urbandictionary.com/defi...orum%20Warrior


Steve, Steve, Steve.

You could have looked this up yourself but you seem to have entered that nanny moderator mode where you want to chastise me so you pick apart everything I say into tiny little bits believing that the sheer volume of responses required will shut me up. Remember how you explained that tactic to me awhile back? Did you think I forgot? Well sorry but I won't play your game.

To everyone else like I have repeatedly said I believe that the removal of religion, the way of life since the beginning of recorded history billions and billions of people, will leave an enormous hole in their lives that could and has been filled in the past by things far worse than the mainstream religions that the God haters want so much to destroy.


Rockstar mentions the Commies, the most well known athiests in human history for one example but i'd also add the radical "religious" cults that are springing up in more profusion as the mainstreams loose power. They are not so much religious as they are cults of personality.

People have got to believe in something and when those beliefs are taken away or substituted with antiseptic state replacements violence and alienation is the result. Maybe if the perpetrators of these school shootings in recent years had a dose of religion they may not have committed their terrible crimes. Our society has created this spiritual wasteland that allows these monsters to thrive.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by August

Steve, Steve, Steve.

Condescension much?

You could have looked this up yourself but you seem to have entered that nanny moderator mode where you want to chastise me so you pick apart everything I say into tiny little bits believing that the sheer volume of responses required will shut me up.

Dave, Dave, Dave (such an easy game to play - and it is a game)

Yes, I could have looked it up, but, I couldn't be sure that any definition I found would be the one you meant by it. I had a little bit of understanding, being slightly familiar with the SJW pejorative. Enough of an idea to ask whether the term didn't also apply to yourself. I notice you sidestepped it quite nicely - along with all my other questions. It seems like an easy way out, just calling people names.

And no, I don't want to shut you up, or chastise you. I want to have this conversation.

Remember how you explained that tactic to me awhile back? Did you think I forgot?

No, I don't remember. Please enlighten me.

Well sorry but I won't play your game.

But you continue to play your own, which is to avoid what people say, put your own words in their mouths and attack that straw man repeatedly.

What I did do is try to address every one of the points you've made. You reply by coming back with this curious attack, but not actually addressing anything I really said.

1. When you complained about people arguing over the existence of God rather than give solutions, I asked who, in this thread, has argued over the existence of God? You didn't answer.

2.

To everyone else like I have repeatedly said I believe that the removal of religion, the way of life since the beginning of recorded history billions and billions of people, will leave an enormous hole in their lives that could and has been filled in the past by things far worse than the mainstream religions that the God haters want so much to destroy.

Yes, you did say that repeatedly. The last time I pointed out that you seemed to be ignoring the part where Skybird agrees with you on that. As I said, ignoring what people actually say and making it into a strawman.

Rockstar mentions the Commies, the most well known athiests in human history for one example but i'd also add the radical "religious" cults that are springing up in more profusion as the mainstreams loose power.

As I pointed out, the "mainstreams" have been just as much a part of the problem as anyone else. As for "The Commies", yes, some of them have been some of the worst. That said, people like Stalin may not have believed in any God, but none of them ever said they were committing their atrocities in the name of Atheism. I would say Stalin did worship something, that thing being his own lust for power. This is the same malady suffered by a great many kings and dictators, many of whom called themselves "Godly Men".

On the other hand the Scandinavian countries boast some of the best standards of living in the world, and they are predominantly non-believers.

People have got to believe in something,,,

Do they really? Why?

There is one thing you seemingly don't understand about me at all. The questions I just asked are not because I like to be contrary, or because I necessarily believe that. I ask questions like that to try to open up a dialogue, to really discuss the concepts. As I've said many times, I don't claim to have any answers. I also tend not to trust people who claim they do. There always seems to be a hidden agenda.

...and when those beliefs are taken away or substituted with antiseptic state replacements violence and alienation is the result.

And yet there are so many examples of violence and alienation caused by the very organizations we have now.

Maybe if the perpetrators of these school shootings in recent years had a dose of religion they may not have committed their terrible crimes. Our society has created this spiritual wasteland that allows these monsters to thrive.

Maybe. On the other hand that leads directly to one of the main pro-gun arguments, which I'll bet you have used at one time or the other. I know I have. That is the simple question "How many Atheists didn't kill anybody yesterday?"

[August]

Sorry Steve, not playing the game.

[Catfish]

Never let anyone burst your bubble, if you already have an opinion

[August]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Never let anyone burst your bubble, if you already have an opinion

There's no bubble being burst Catfish. Just the usual noise from the usual suspects drawn up in the usual battle lines over the usual issues. Haven't you figured it out by now?

[Sailor Steve]

Yes, you are very much playing a game. You raised your objections. I disagreed. You then start talking about what "they" say. I challenged that. Rather than have a discussion, an argument or even answer the questions, you choose instead to accuse me of something I actually try to avoid. Forget moderation, if that's your worry. All I want is to have a discussion. If that's beyond you, say so. If it's not, let's talk about it.

[Skybird]

This all got a bit out of hand. Originally this thread was about the language censorship in childrens book to make these old, sometimes classical works comply with modern special interest groups' ideological goals, gender-new-speak and political correctness. August does what he does since all the years I know him in this forum now, none of his game is new. He will not change, and next time he will not do any different.

Lets go back a bit to the origin of this thread. That topics get left a bit and debate sprays debris to both sides of the main line , is nothing new in General Topics and can even be interesting and/or entertaining, but this personal hick-hack put at focus now leads a bit too far.

Please, just leave it.

[August]

Well gee guys i'm sorry that my opinion is so objectionable to you but it is what it is. I have to wonder what you are so scared of though. That I might be right? I hope i'm that not but I don't think so. I think we're already seeing it with the advent of horrific events like school massacres.

[Sailor Steve]

Contrary to what you might think I don't find your opinion objectionable at all. For all I know you may be right. I disagree with some of the examples you give and I pointed out that the opposite may also be true. I still feel there's a lot of discussion to be had, but discussion involves looking at all sides of the issue, not just insisting on your own.

[August]

Interesting article that deals with what I am talking about:

As churches close, a way of life fades
Minnesota’s mainline Christian denominations face unprecedented declines, altering communities and traditions celebrated for generations.


Excerpt:


La Salle Lutheran Church is much like the hundreds of small churches whose steeples rise above Minnesota’s rural landscape. Most were planted more than a century ago, near dozens of small farms with large families and boatloads of the faithful arriving from Europe.
Those were the grandparents of the people at the church today. About 25 members remain, including Bonnie Viland, 86. She recalls when the church was so full of families that folding chairs had to be set up in the aisle on holidays.
“Everybody who moved into town went to the church — except the family that was Roman Catholic,” she said.
Church was a bedrock of daily life. Its absence leaves a large gap — spiritual, social, emotional — that for many seems almost impossible to fill.
Viland, for example, taught Sunday school, brought desserts to countless church events and funerals, “held every office in the women’s organization,” served as church treasurer and church president. On a recent Sunday, she brought the chocolate chip cookies to social hour.
After worship, every single person in the pews headed to the downstairs social hall for coffee and conversation. Schultz watched the folks sitting around the table wistfully.
“I was confirmed here, married here. I thought I’d be buried here,” Schultz said sadly. “I still don’t know where I’m going.”

http://www.startribune.com/as-minnes...des/486037461/

[Sailor Steve]

That is indeed sad for the people who are watching their way of life fade. On the other hand, what I don't see mentioned are their children. These younger adults have obviously found something to replace that particular social life, something they can relate more to in their own lives. What is it? Where are they going? They obviously aren't sitting bemoaning what they've lost. They have new social functions that interest them more.

Among my circle of friends are two sets of believers who, though they believe diametrically opposite things, both call themselves Christian. They both attend their respective churches regularly, and though they do have a social functionality both will tell you that what they believe is more important than what they do socially. That said, the group also includes people who don't attend church or believe at all. They will also tell you they have rich social lives with like-minded friends. I associate with musicians and gamers mostly. One of my neighbors lives for golf.

The fading of those churches doesn't seem to be the cause of the next generation moving on, but rather the result of it. Peoples lives are not being left empty because of churches closing. The churches are closing because their members' children have found something they'd rather be doing. Yes, for some that may be a bad thing, but I'm sure that most of them would say otherwise.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

The fading of those churches doesn't seem to be the cause of the next generation moving on, but rather the result of it. Peoples lives are not being left empty because of churches closing. The churches are closing because their members' children have found something they'd rather be doing. Yes, for some that may be a bad thing, but I'm sure that most of them would say otherwise.

Or the old ways that got passed on to people now living, hold no convincing attractiveness anymore. As I said, most of those church-christians that attended morning meditation were not "adventurous", but disappointed. They formed the older group, by tendency. The younger ones were those seeking new experiences.

The line between both groups and ages is not static, solid.

That is quite some tie ago now. I assume the internet'ÄS effects on our solcial lives and the way we can get easier any contact, input, information, impression from all over the world, has also changed our old familiar ways of social life. Sometimes for the good (lets face it, the closeness of an isolated village where everybody knows everbyody else can not only be idyllic, but also quite oppressive, if the social constellations and mutual symopathies and family structures are only rigid enough), sometimes for the worse (there seems to be growing indications in social and psychological research that the excessive use of smartphones and social media - which I often call anti-social media - pushes especially young people at greater risk of isolating themselves and/or growign lonely). Also, social behaviour skills (social intelligence) seem to erode.

Its complex processes runnign there, and everythign is in a chnage. Seems to me tht chnages just happens far too fast for a grpoewing number of ever younger people. It were the elder who were left behgind first, then the high mid-ages, now the mid-agers, but increasingly younger ones as well. But that is a wide fields to cover, and it snot exclusive about computer and relgion only. Fear for one's own job education and job future, pressure from mounting financial strains, and much more - so much can come together here. College loans, anyone?