G'Day from an old Tanker

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by frinik

BTW are the Royal Australian Defence Forces going toupgrade to the Leopard 2 A5 or A6 tanks?

To my best knowledge the Australian army is one of the few customers who favoured the Abrams over the Leopard-2. It was said that there has been considerable political interference to make the decision like that. the are giving their Leopard-1s away for free if the receiver could legally claim some educative or history-preserving purpose: museums, public collections, etc.

The Leopard.Some would argue the best heavy tank?

At least it is by far the most successful. There are not many abrams customers worldwide, it has lost economic competitions against the modern Leopards most of the time. Which is the better tank? Hard to say, it depends much on the defence concept of the customer, I would say. The high fuel consummation is what makes the Abrams a logistcal nightmare for armies that do not rate top in logistic capabilities (and having the capacity to keep supply lines open at all cost). The Russians have abandoned their tank turbines, if I am not mistaken (the T-80 has had 1250 HP gas turbines, but the T-90 switched back to conventional engines again).

In Europe, the Leopard-2 is by far the dominant tank. Most NATO countries operate Leopards. where the Leopards have seen combat action (Afghanistan), customers tend to be extremely pleased (the Candians love the Leo2A6 they have leased, favouring them over 3rd generation Abrams).

Any discussion on "best tanks" necessarily must consider the Challenger-II as well, due to it's impressive defence kit. It's a very tough bug to crack. Also do not leave out the the Merkava-4, and the latest Russian tanks.

I personally favour the Leopard 2 over the Abrams - even more so since the latest German Tungsten SABOT rounds have reduced the gap to the higher penetration potential of the American DU rounds so much that DU rounds are no longer a decisive argument.

I just thought KnightsCross,have you heard of Steel Beasts Pro?
It's expensive @ $125 but the realism is way beyond anything on the tanksim market.
It is used by many countries to train real tank crews,but maybe I am telling you something you already know?

Around two years ago, when a major upgrade included several features and vehicles demanded by the Australians (who are a customer of SBP), the Australian defence ministry distributed copies of SBP to all members of their tank forces, for free.

If KnightsCross is in for reviving his experiences with M113 and Abrams and Leopard-1s, SBP is for him. The sim features several Australian types of vehicles, amongst them the Leopard-1AS and the Australian Lav-25, the M113 anyway. The M1A1 and several different Leopard-2s are there, too.

[frinik]

I am sure the Americans did a consiuderable amount of arm twietibg.many of the Abrams customers by the way took it as a second option simply because the Germans overly restrictive arms export policies like in the Gulf countries simply prevented countries that preferred the Leop[ard 2 over the Abrams to buy it.

On the other hand the Aussies preferred the German/French Tiger attack helicopter over the Apache Long bow and the German/French Airbus refuelling tanker over the US competition.

Interesting th use of Tungsten core shells since Germany pioneered its use during WWII on its Tigers and Panthers but in limited quantites and very effectively. DU BTW has been known to cause high incidence of cancers amongst US veterans.

Modern tanks are very close to one another in terms of performance, firepower,capabilities although argueably the Leopard 2A6 and the latest Abrams seem to have a slight edge over the Challengers and the Merkava.Bu these tanks all use the German designed 120 smooth bore mm gun and even the tracks and in some cases the transmission and engine(Merkava) are German made or designed so the case could be made that the German made Leopard 2A6 is the best by virtue of combining the best designs.

Good news about Steel Beasts.I wish I had waited to buy mine.

it's in a class by itself because it is the real thing the simulation of actual existing and state/of/the/art modern battletanks.Steel Fury and TvsT are just historical curiosities but in a way they matter because the modern tanks of today were born out the legends of WWII whether the Tigers , Panthers, T34/85...

Happy birthday SB!

[KnightsCross]

Tanks for the great welcome Gents
Wow heaps of questions, I'll do my best to answer them
The Leopard I's have been offered free to RSL's ( Returned Services Clubs) and others, but the transport cost of $200,000 to move them is out of reach. It;s a shame the Army didn't use the excuse to transport these as Driver Training or an Exercise of some sort.
I have a clipping from a major Aussie news paper that says "Leopard II on track for the Army"
They were to be purchased for a mere $282,000 each. My son got me a 1/32 scale Leopard II to go with my Leo 1 which is modeled as 22A B SQN 1AR. I promptly modeled the Leo II as a Australian Tank and displayed them together, now I have the only Aussie Leopard II in the country
The purchase of the Abrams seemed to come from nowhere, they are all First Gulf War rebuilds. The Aussie crews seem happy enough with them, although many of the more experienced guys were looking forward to the Leopard II. Logistically they must be a nightmare with fuel, they need wheeled vehicles, as they can carry more fuel than the M113TLC, the problem here is, can they provide resupply to all the terrain the Tank will be operating in ?
Personally, once you have crewed a German tank why would you wont something else.
As for DU rounds, why ? there is already enough rounds out there that will stop a tank,.and soldier the world over have enough to worry about in their later years, they say that DU rounds along with the different cancers can effect the next generations by way of deformities and continuing cancers. I find that sad that Governments think this it's ok, As a soldier, I served, blow my leg off ! leave me bleeding on the battlefield ! kill me ! but don't pass these hideous burdens on to our children and their children ! enough said.

Back to gaming, I love to play WWII games, Panzer Front & PF Ausf B have been my mainstay, cant really say why but when I'm made to think about it, I think it has something to do with growing up, with WWII being the big thing for a kid in the 1960's I'm drawn back there just as a kid today has grown up with Iraq & Afghanistan they like the modern combat games.
Also I like the rawness or the basic combat of find em aim & shoot, rather than the radar and thermal imagery of the modern games, it's seem like cheating in a way. And lets face it the Tiger and Tiger II are irresistible to anyone who likes to think of himself as a commander.

I'm also scratch building a 1/6 Tiger I for my 1/6 Wittmann & Woll, and they are getting impatient with me when they see me playing TvsT LOL

Frinik what is the good news about SB, also my Mum says I'm Number 1 and no I don't live with my Mum

Tanks Again Gents
Salute Returned
Darren
"Facta Non Verba"
KnightsCross

Please feel free to ask any question and I shall answer within my Legal obligations
ALSO The depression of the 88mm gun on the TvsT Tiger ? , it should be -6.5 deg, it does not seem to be enough in the game

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by KnightsCross

Frinik what is the good news about SB,

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=168483

[frinik]

Knightscross you can play Steel Beast Turm Aus meaning stripped of all the modern equipement turned off* although btw the German Panthers were already equipped with nightsight(infrared) devices in 1945. I feel like I am being reincarnated as Skybird selling Steel Beast...

WWII/wise you have the choice between Steel Fury , a very nice single player sim with plenty of mods including the Tiger I and II and T34 versu Tiger which originally was a nice looking but very flawed and buggy sim Multi player mostly.However it's has been resurrected in a spectacular fashion by ZeeWolf also known as Leonardo de VinZee.There 's an upcoming Kursk relkease.If you have a pc with strong specs and $ 60 to disburse then it's the game for you.Check it out on the TvsT threads.My own advice is get both games as I have and enjoy them each for their particular qualities and features.Steel Beast is expenssive and very good but not WWII.

Best and see you on the battlefield

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by frinik

Knightscross you can play Steel Beast Turm Aus meaning stripped of all the modern equipement turned off*

Knightscross,
on this detail frinik refers to, see the according essay you can find in postings #2 and #3 after the collection of links:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=88893

I feel like I am being reincarnated as Skybird selling Steel Beast...

Never be sure of a Hun being dead as long as you have not seen his dead cold body...