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Old 01-01-2011, 05:16 PM   #781
h.sie
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@Stiebler: Best wishes for the new year!

I fear very much to manipulate the dZ value because it's the resulting value of a complex physical model which considers wave amlitudes, ship mass, displacement and so on. It is never constant, since it also controls the Subs movement in Z direction on the waves. If I simply change dZ or add a small value to it, the Z-position of the ship is no more consistent to the physical model and surrounding conditions. So in my tests I had flying Uboats as well as a crew on the bridge when submerged (which indeed is nothing new for sh5 players). I didn't manage to fine-adjust the dZ value to realize a similar behaviour to the Anti-Hummingbird mod: very slow sinking.

If I add a very slow offset to dZ, the physical model corrects this disturbance, so that my manipulation has no effect.

If I add a bigger offset to dZ, the physical model isn't able to correct my manipulation and the sub goes down or begins to fly.

So I think the only way to get negative buoyancy is to affect the mass / displacement proportion of the ship, in order to have always a correct Z value according to the surrounding physical conditions. But unfortunately, until now I did not find a way to manipulate the mass / displacement proportion.

I like the Anti-Hummingbird mod, which I use in my private SH3 installation. What is wrong with it? What is the weak point, which you want to eliminate?

h.sie

Edith: I think dZ in Sh3Sim.act+30DF5 isn't the right place for a manipulation, but it can lead us to the right place. I gave you that information about Sh3Sim.act, hoping you could help. Two seekers are better than one.
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Last edited by h.sie; 01-02-2011 at 03:31 AM.
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Old 01-02-2011, 04:54 AM   #782
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Concerning problems of reloading torpedoes:
1. I think 10 minutes to dive is correct, if the reloading is interrupted by an attack.
2. I do not think that there is a problem with the issue of bad weather interrupting the reloading. The reason is due to the difficulty to the player of discovering when the weather is good enough to start reloading. The player, using time compression, will always start reloading long after the weather is good enough. Therefore, it is fair (equitable) as compensation that reloading should be allowed to continue even if bad weather commences.

Stiebler.
If its possible, I'd suggest another scenario. Base the diving time proportional to how close you are to completing the transfer. Depending on the % you can have several different actions:

0%-25% you're able to shove the torpedo back into the container and dive in 5 minutes.

25%-50% you're far enough along in reloading that it can't be put back into the container and must be dumped overboard. To get everything sealed up takes 10 minutes.

50%-75% Torepdo is partially in the compartment at this point, only option is to drop the torpedo into the torepo room; while at the same time each person in the compartment takes some amount of damage and maybe a few fatalities. Diving takes 15 minutes.

75%-99% Torpedo can be safely dropped without damage to the crew but too much equipment is already out and can't be quickly put away. Sub has to submerge with open compartments and the torpedo rooms will start flooding. Dive time is 5 minutes, but afterwards must stay surfaced for at least 15 minutes in order to correctly put everything away to avoid flooding.

You could also add that there must be no damage to the forward deck, if its damaged or destroyed the appartus used to slide the torpedo into the compartment is also a casualty. Thus, you cannot move any more external torpedoes (if the deck is destroyed) or wait for repairs to complete before the transfer process can start.
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Old 01-02-2011, 05:12 AM   #783
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@CH: I had the same idea like you: If the boat dives during reloading, some compartments will be flooded and crew injured or die. but this reqires an menu option to warn the crew to hurry up with reloading/interrupt reloding process, which is very hard to do. And: I don't want to spent much effort to program a situation/option (dive during reload externals) which a kaleun would never choose.

So the much more easy solution is to simply delay the diving by a certain time, which is hard enough.
Delaying the dive is the way to go for the attacked by enemy scenario, but if is for worsening weather, I don't think the crew would abandon the task just because of worsening weather.
Could this work.....
If task is over half complete when weather gets worse - allow to continue.
Less than half complete, 10 minute dive penalty and reset to task not started.
As always, it is easy to throw around suggestions, much harder to write code to do it, so if it is not practical, then feel free to ignore.
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Old 01-02-2011, 05:37 AM   #784
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Oh, cool, I can now manipulate the Diving Tank and the Depth Rudders. USeful
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Old 01-02-2011, 06:27 AM   #785
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@H.sie:

Thanks for the feedback, and the complications of changing the dZ value. Pity.

There is nothing wrong with the anti-humming-bird mod, and no need to alter it.
However, it causes the U-boat to sink only when it is stationary.
I was hoping for a mod which will cause the U-boat to sink slowly, when running at slow speed (2 kts or less), when silent-running. Under these conditions the pumps are switched off, so the U-boat should fill very slowly with water (become heavier) and sink.

[There is a bug in the SH3 model, which causes an interrupted crash-dive to leave the U-boat dived at an angle/inclination - the 'crash-dive blues'. Under these conditions, it is hard to control the depth at slow speed. Perhaps this would be an alternative route to provide a solution to what is required. When the U-boat is silent-running, cause it to change its inclination a little. Then it will start to sink slowly. However, perhaps this would be a very complicated and unnatural solution.]

Stiebler.
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Old 01-02-2011, 09:01 AM   #786
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Quote:
There is nothing wrong with the anti-humming-bird mod, and no need to alter it.
IIRC it broke the pump system of the Type XXI

What I'm not sure is if it also brakes the pump system of any sub replacing the XXI, f.e. the XXIII, but I suppose not.

The XXI in Sh3 is above all a "free" slot which you can use to add different subs to the already playable ones, and with specific characteristics (F.e. the VIIC/41, The VIID, etc.). For me, the XXIII is a permanent replacement of the XXI, so I can have always historically correct submarines
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Old 01-02-2011, 10:02 AM   #787
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Hitman said:
Quote:
IIRC it [the anti-humming-bird mod] broke the pump system of the Type XXI
What I'm not sure is if it also brakes the pump system of any sub replacing the XXI, f.e. the XXIII, but I suppose not.
True, I had forgotten that.

It became evident that the XXI pump was broken, because every time you loaded a XXI in NYGM, you got a damage report to that effect. In the end, I disabled the installation of the pump to the XXI, which ended the complaint, and the XXI still seems to sail correctly. [Speculate: the pump is used only as a device for getting repaired and broken in damage control, not actually for pumping?]

There have never been any damage reports from the other U-boats, including the XXIII, so I think it is not a problem for them.

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Old 01-02-2011, 11:24 AM   #788
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Happy new year to all!

POLL / Discussion:

What should I program if the reloading process of external torpedoes is disturbed by storm?

A) Pause the reloading process, so that it can be continued at the same state after the storm.

B) Reset the reloading process, so that the crew has to start reloading from the beginning when the storm ended.

----------
I prefer B)
----------
I prefer B, too!

Happy new year to everybody!
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Old 01-02-2011, 11:42 AM   #789
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Of course B
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Old 01-02-2011, 12:33 PM   #790
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Am I the only one who can't find V15D_Patch-Kit.7z on h.sie's Mediafire page? I see a lot of other SHIII mods, but not that one.
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Old 01-02-2011, 12:53 PM   #791
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It is in the Sh3 Bugfixes folder.
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Old 01-02-2011, 02:02 PM   #792
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Originally Posted by WH4K View Post
Am I the only one who can't find V15D_Patch-Kit.7z on h.sie's Mediafire page? I see a lot of other SHIII mods, but not that one.
Download Link: http://www.mediafire.com/?a6j533a02wsf39d

Best regards,
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Old 01-02-2011, 05:50 PM   #793
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Thanks, but it doesn't like my SH3.exe. Not sure why.
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Old 01-02-2011, 06:00 PM   #794
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have emerged because they had stopped a threat to them, but given the fact that the submarines are normally carried out during the war and an average of 20 hours when compared with other data presented here think that their maximum stay under water was 48 hours and the American and British submarines of similar displacement and number of crew members.
That is quite an impressive collection of reference and rare books there. I envy that you're able to read both of them in their native languages. Recently have noticed a large number of people selling rare or otherwise difficult to get u-boat books, sadly all but 1 that I've seen wasn't in German. Hard to justify paying $200-$400 for a book you can't read unless it's one that's mainly a photo collection.

I was lying in bed this morning and for some reason started thinking about the question of where/how they got 72 hours. Though there is no longer any question about the actual time, I was trying to figure out how they got the 72 hours in the first place. There are various fact intermingled to support my ideas, but this is purely my guess as to how they obtained such a large number based from certain facts we all know and hands on personal experiences with lab classes in high school/college and the basic scientific method:

1. These tests (likely) weren't performed under combat conditions, they would have been done somewhere safe to ensure that the test wasn't interrupted. Anyone that's had a chem lab or physics lab class can attest that when something is to be measured, any and all surrounding factors that could alter the outcome of the test are removed in order to get a clear result. Your results are based on the test being performed under ideal conditions, therefore they are correct but not practical. A MG42 was capable of firing 1,200 rounds per minute; but this never would have happened. With machine gun belts being on average 250 catridges the time taken to swap new ones in likely wasn't factored in the testing (probably made special belts of 2000 cartridges in order to ensure continous firing) and those barrels overheated frequently when fired for prolonged periods with pause or water.

2. Germany was very meticulous at keeping records of everything they did (which ultimately ruined them when the allies began liberating the concentration camps and from the documents were able to find out detailed everything that was done there) so once the number was found discovered it would have been well documented many times over.

3. Having a boatful of people sitting around reading or sleeping would not have produced CO2 very fast. It's like taking a direct flight from Berlin to Los Angeles, very long and boring so if you can sleep through most of it its not as bad. I imagine (pure conjecture) they had 1 or 2 subs full of people and had them submerge with someone on the boat and the surface keeping tract of time. Once people finally started to pass out, or a set # had passed out; or someone was actuall in imminent danger of dying they would surface and pop the hatch.

4. Math - if they didn't perform the real tests one could figure out with x number of people in y space, how long will it take for the CO2 to get to z level? While the resultant number would have been inflated compared to [3] it would have been mathematically verifiable, even though it would have been impossible to replicate those results on a real test, even under ideal [1] circumstances.

5. Since we can't speak to any u-boat engineers anymore, and unless you've got a book that details how they tested the u-boat (precisely what tests were done and how so that got the statistical numbers) I believe that the 72 hour vs 48 hours is theoretical vs realistic. U-278 could have stayed under water potentially a few hours more, but they have absolutely no reason to, given that the CO2 levels would have started to get very uncomfortable right then I doubt any captain would want to subject his crew to such an experiment in order to claim that his boat stayed submerged the longest. Something not practical at all during war time.

Using U-278 as the baseline, if we knew what CO2% they were at prior to them surfacing we could more correctly calculate a (realistic) maximum submersion time. By recording the CO2 measurements each hour one could easily enough exptropolate from a graph what the max would been given the slope of the line from the 40-48 marks. It would also be easy enough to find the amount of CO2 produced per hour and compute it against the amount of airspace in the sub, and come up (again a theoritcal, albeit much more realistic) with its maximum submersion time.

Just because no boat never dived for 72 hours doesn't mean that wasn't possible. Most cars are capable of hitting a max of 125-150 mph; but do we actually drive that fast?

While this is all my own theory drawn from certain facts and knowledge of methods used for testing to obtain a reference point; I believe that the real max dive time is somewhere between 50-60 hours in a real situation. Most crews didn't need to stay submerged more than 24 -30 hours, there would have been no reason for them to push the limits to find out what the boat was really capable of. Even if you had a boat that could dive safely to a depth beyond what dc's were capable of, having your crew sit there for 2 days hearing constant explosions (despite knowing that they were safe) would start to make people psychological ill. Every minute you're submerged the air quality gets worse, while a captain may lie at the bottom for another few hours in order to be completely sure they were safe to surface after 24 hours they were likely dead, or able to sneak away.
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Old 01-02-2011, 06:12 PM   #795
Tessa
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Thanks, but it doesn't like my SH3.exe. Not sure why.
If you're using the 4gb patch you need an unmodified virgin sh3.exe file (with only the supermod added). If it has any other patches/mods that have changed it the mod won't work. What's your machine's specs?

Since many people have the problem I did (a 4gb patched sh3.exe file and no backup of the original file) would it be helpful if I could post it on my MF/FS site? Since it's only 1 file that in itself is otherwise useless I don't think there would be any legal issues. I would have used this mod a lot sooner if I didn't have to create a new installation just to get a virgin sh3.exe file that this mod needs.
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