Tiger II based on panther?

[Freiwillige]

Looking at the Koenigs Tiger and the panther they almost look identical except the turret of course, But the hull looks like a slightly up scaled Panther Hull.

Should the Tiger II have been named Panther II instead or King Panther?

Discuss.....

[Task Force]

I would say it was based on some of the ideas of the panther, well, the sloped armor, and the design which was originally inspired by the T 34, other than that they are entirely different tanks, the tiger 2 was made to be more of a moving bunker, while the panther was made to be a tank good all around (good speed, armor, and a good gun.)

(of course this is really just my opinion, lol)

There was actually a plan for a panther 2, I think i remember reading something about it, sounded pretty impressive.

[Raptor1]

No, they look so similar because they were designed with the same ideas in mind, notably the sloped armour. However, the Panther was a medium tank and the Tiger II was a heavy tank like the Tiger I, there are large differences in their employment and organization, so even though they're similar in some aspects, it doesn't make them related.

BTW, there was a proposal to produce a Panther II, which among other differences would have fielded the Tiger II's 88mm KwK 43 gun. This never happened, of course, though I believe one prototype was actually built.

EDIT: Gah!

[Freiwillige]

I know they were different class tanks, but if you look at the dimensions they aren't that far off, Looks as if they took a panther Hull widened it a bit and slapped several more tons of armor on it, New turret and gun and Ta Da Tiger II

[Raptor1]

By that count, I could say the same thing about the Panzer IV. Make it bigger, slap on several tons more armour, new turret, gun and ta-da, Tiger I...

Maybe we should call it a Panzer IV II, or King Panzer IV?

[Oberon]

Panther II chassis. Turret not original since the Panther II never made it past the chassis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panther_tank#Panther_II

[Lieste]

They did produce (2?) examples of the Panther Schmallturm - one lost and the other expended as a hard range target at Lulworth , once it was realised what this one was the remnants were recovered and are now displayed in Bovington.

[frinik]

I think the Panther was intended to eventually replace the Panzer IV.It never happened because they were never able to produce enough Panthers and as the war took a decidely negative course by mid 1943 they needed the Panzer IV reliable and available in large numbers as the workhorse of the Panzerwaffe.

The Tiger II was intended to repalce the Tiger I but with the improvements in design brought by the Panther, sloped armour and a more rounder design in the turret and shape of the tanks to make it more defective than the square shape of the Tiger I' s armour.Unfortunately they negated the advantages of a sloped armour by adding excessive layers of armour( perhaps partly to compensate for the lack of alloys in 1944 which led to a decrease in the quality(hardness) or German armour?) which made the Tiger II obese and overstressed both transmission and suspension.

The shape of tanks seem to be matched depending on the era when they were designed; the Panzer II, III and IV, for example, had a pretty similar angular shape which indeed the Tiger I reproduced on a larger scale.Then as the Germans adopted the sloping shape it was logical that the Panther and Tiger II would look similar.

The Soviets did the same with their low silhouette, rounded or octogonal turret and sloping front armour; look at the T34/76, T34/85, JS-1 and JS-2 and on to the JS-3, 7 ,10 and T54-55,T62, T72 etc you can clearly see the lineage that has evolved but remained very constant through the decades.

The Panther as said in another post was intended to be a medium tank and the Tiger II a heavy one.

It seems to me that the Panther II with the Schmallturm was intended to be armed with a high-velocity 105 mm gun rather than the KwK43 L71 of the Tiger II?

This begs the question; why didn't they upgun the Tiger II with a h-v 105 mm gun sooner than they were planning to do it - spring to summer 1945 when it was way too late - in early or mid 1944?The moment the JS-2 1944 model appeared in early 1944 and later the SU-100 it was clear that it the Germans wanted to keep the only adavntage they had over Soviet armour; the capacity to engage in long range advantage fighting through to their superior optics and high velocity guns they needed more powerful guns as the JS-2 and SU-100 with their thick armour and dangerous guns could not be defeated over 1200 metres by the Tiger II( which meant that it was vulnerable to the 100 and 122 mm guns to either at such distances) and over 700 metres by the Panther. I think rather than up-armour the Panther or Tiger II or even the Panzer IV they should have gone for the up-gunning solution. Of course that would imply redesigning the turrets but for example a less armoured , slightly smaller version of the Tiger II turret fitted with the KwK43 L71 could have possibly been fitted io the chassis of the Panther ausf. G with minimal modifications?

[Freiwillige]

I can see your argument except for one thing, The tiger II already had the most powerful gun fitted to a world war two tank. Even know it was only another 88mm design it could penetrate more than even the soviet 120mm design. Its not just size but shell design and velocity. The soviets chose spilit shell, that is separate powder in a much larger size and shell to compensate for German superiority in cannon.

So the German's never needed to up gun to the point the soviets did.

The Tiger II's 88 was more than capable for doing its designed job well into the next decade.

My original argument in this post was not that the Tiger II was a direct copy of the Panther but an evolution of the Panther, More so than the tiger 1.

Take a Tiger and a Panther and compare them side by side to a King Tiger and ask yourself what features where borrowed to make it? The only logical conclusion is that they borrowed heavily from the Panther and not at all from the Tiger. So much so that the Panther and Tiger II were to use common parts to ease production.

which brings me back to the concept of Naming the Tiger II the Panther Two instead. And as for the original Panther II it really was just a Panther with uprated armor and a new smaller turret.

I contest that the Tiger II got its name just for the sake of it's name. The Panther never had the fear factor of the Tiger and for propaganda's sake The Tiger II got its name, Cause clearly its lineage is Panther!

[Raptor1]

Originally Posted by frinik

It seems to me that the Panther II with the Schmallturm was intended to be armed with a high-velocity 105 mm gun rather than the KwK43 L71 of the Tiger II?

This begs the question; why didn't they upgun the Tiger II with a h-v 105 mm gun sooner than they were planning to do it - spring to summer 1945 when it was way too late - in early or mid 1944?The moment the JS-2 1944 model appeared in early 1944 and later the SU-100 it was clear that it the Germans wanted to keep the only adavntage they had over Soviet armour; the capacity to engage in long range advantage fighting through to their superior optics and high velocity guns they needed more powerful guns as the JS-2 and SU-100 with their thick armour and dangerous guns could not be defeated over 1200 metres by the Tiger II( which meant that it was vulnerable to the 100 and 122 mm guns to either at such distances) and over 700 metres by the Panther. I think rather than up-armour the Panther or Tiger II or even the Panzer IV they should have gone for the up-gunning solution. Of course that would imply redesigning the turrets but for example a less armoured , slightly smaller version of the Tiger II turret fitted with the KwK43 L71 could have possibly been fitted io the chassis of the Panther ausf. G with minimal modifications?

105mm gun? Do you have a source for this? Everything I heard about the Panther II indicates that they were either going to arm it with a longer version of the Panther's 75mm gun or with the Tiger II's 88mm gun. The Germans didn't even have a 105mm tank gun, not that I know of.

Hmm...

Originally Posted by Freiwillige

I can see your argument except for one thing, The tiger II already had the most powerful gun fitted to a world war two tank. Even know it was only another 88mm design it could penetrate more than even the soviet 120mm design. Its not just size but shell design and velocity. The soviets chose spilit shell, that is separate powder in a much larger size and shell to compensate for German superiority in cannon.

So the German's never needed to up gun to the point the soviets did.

The Tiger II's 88 was more than capable for doing its designed job well into the next decade.

The Soviet choice of guns has nothing to do with compensating for any German superiority, it is very simply a different priority. The IS-2's humongous-but-lower-velocity gun was keeping with its role as an infantry support and breakthrough tank, in which the need for a larger HE charge was more important than being able to penetrate more armour at a longer range.

[Gerald]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_...f_World_War_II

[HunterICX]

Like mentioned by Raptor, Germany did not have any tank/Anti-Tank gun of the caliber 105mm.

Though they had the 128mm Pak44 gun which they also used on the Jagdtiger.

HunterICX

[L.T]

what the germans should have done...

cancel the Tiger production and go with the panther both jagd and "normal. Cancel panzIV but produce the stug G

Right there you have solved 80% of the problems for the panzer units.

I know Tiger II looks cool, the jagdtiger is an awsome thing, but they are not suitet for the late war battlefield.

From the beginning 44 the Germans had the technoligy to step way ahead of any allied country

ME-262 (fighter) (in numbers it would have been an factor)
AR-234 (bomber) (in numbers it would have been an factor)
Panther/jagdpanther (in numbers it would have been an factor)
Uboot type XXI electro boot (in numbers it would have been an factor)
MP-43 (in numbers it would have been an factor)

The panther 2 is just another wierd idea about evolving something that realy didnt need to be evolved. German idea about perfection ruined some of the projects that could have turned the war. Im glad they made all the mistakes, or i would speak German now, but i never could get why they stopped working on things that could have been effective, especialy the XXI electro boot.....The ME-262, almost haltet for 1 year because of someone wantet bombs on it. The AR-234 ended up being fast recon plane...

sorry if this came out as a rant realy wasent my intention.....just firmly belive that the Tiger II the jagdtiger was a huge waste of recources..

LT

[Gerald]

Originally Posted by HunterICX

Like mentioned by Raptor, Germany did not have any tank/Anti-Tank gun of the caliber 105mm.

Though they had the 128mm Pak44 gun which they also used on the Jagdtiger.

HunterICX

Good to know, but where did the data on the 105mm gun away, was the subject of an upcoming project that never happened....

[Kapt. Q]

The KonigTiger a Panther II? No. Based on same components where possible? Yes. Based on the same lessons and design principles? Yes. As has already been said, ones a heavy and the other a medium, and mediums don't pack as much punch in infantry support or breakthrough roles as the heavies, they are more specifically for destroying other medium AFVs. The Panther was a MAN design and the King Tiger a later Henschel design intended to share as many components with the former design as possible, including engine and suspension components. Some Panther components were redesigned to facilitate this too. The King Tiger as the name suggests is an evolution of the Tiger I Heavy tank, with thicker sloped armour and a higher velocity 88mm, the revised 'breakthrough' tank, even if not the one best used to further exploit that breakthrough and actually, fast becoming the tank more usefull to stop a breakthrough than start one. It was also, very importantly, easier to manufacture than the original Tiger. The Panther was a response to the T-34 which redefined what a medium tank was, as is clearly evidenced by the up-armouring and gunning of the PzIV at that time. But it also attempted to address some of the suddenly obvious shortfalls inherent in the PzIV's design like vertical armour and ground pressure weights that were generally too high for the russian campaign. The Panther was at it's conception a medium that was supposed to be even lighter than it finally ended up, perhaps this up armouring can be seen as a response to a war fast becoming defensive and therefore requiring less mobility and more armour. If you look at the Panther II design it's turret even with the higher velocity or caliber guns have thinner armour and a smaller size than the King tiger's and the hull armour is thinner too, a medium for sure.