strike from the sea

[GoldenRivet]

well eleven times tonight i have tried strike from the sea with the same result each time.

very frustrating.

on the last attempt i spent about an hour IRL traveling north almost to the edge of the map. launched 4 TLAMs, reloaded while i headed east, Launched 4 more and continued east diving to 50 foot to the floor.

i had about a dozen of those SS-N-14 SILEX missiles launched at me. but it didnt matter. because the damned bomber flew over and with pinpoint accuracy depth bombed me.

i cant stand these stupid TLAM missions - its a death sentence in the campaign to the point that i just dont do them. i sail around sinking subs until it fails the mission.

EDIT: somehow... i think the bomber is able to detect me by sonar, WITHOUT having buoys in the water. its like i dive to a few hindered feet and increase to 15 knots and it makes a b-line for me from several miles away and drops bombs directly on my conning tower hatch. by the time it gets to where i launched the missiles i am a good few thousand yards away from my launch point... shouldnt it have to drop a buoy and listen? instead of homing right in?

[GoldenRivet]

12th time is the charm lol

repeated the same tactic only headed almost right to the border of the map, fired 4 TLAMs and headed east, fired a MOSS southward, the plane homed in on the moss and air dropped a torpedo on it. ignored me. then circled around a bit and bombed me! UGH but the bombs werent a direct hit as i was turning, the plane left after a while and i fired off the second salvo with success and headed home.

the end.

dunno why but those TLAM missions take some doing for me

[XenonSurf]

I have assembled some tips here that may help you (it's in my second post)

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=235408

Good luck,

[Barleyman]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

well eleven times tonight i have tried strike from the sea with the same result each time.

very frustrating.

on the last attempt i spent about an hour IRL traveling north almost to the edge of the map. launched 4 TLAMs, reloaded while i headed east, Launched 4 more and continued east diving to 50 foot to the floor.

i had about a dozen of those SS-N-14 SILEX missiles launched at me. but it didnt matter. because the damned bomber flew over and with pinpoint accuracy depth bombed me.

i cant stand these stupid TLAM missions - its a death sentence in the campaign to the point that i just dont do them. i sail around sinking subs until it fails the mission.

EDIT: somehow... i think the bomber is able to detect me by sonar, WITHOUT having buoys in the water. its like i dive to a few hindered feet and increase to 15 knots and it makes a b-line for me from several miles away and drops bombs directly on my conning tower hatch. by the time it gets to where i launched the missiles i am a good few thousand yards away from my launch point... shouldnt it have to drop a buoy and listen? instead of homing right in?

I told you to take out the Grisha and Krivak with their ASW missiles

When you have a bit of initial distance to the plane, don't be afraid to open up at flank to get max distance between you and the plane when it gets to your launch location. Now the problem is that with realistic reloads you'll have to repeat the exercise in 7.5 minutes.. Actually it should be 15min because all 4 tubes can't be loaded at the same time but that's besides the point. If you really want to go all hog, figure out the plane airspeed and approximate distance and go from there how long you can run hell for leather.

Hey fishies, where's "realistic reload times" option?

[GeneralGamer]

I just did this mission and I am making a video today. The key is when you begin your mission leave the area to lessen the warships detected, using silent running until only 2 warships or less are left that you detect. Fire your moss to distract the rest and fire torpedoes at the 2 (or 3) warships that are still lit. when you take them out fire your Tlams and complete the mission. As long as the remaining warships can't see you no aircraft or helos will attack you.

Problem is with this mission you can complete it but there isn't a results screen to say you did so successfully.

[XenonSurf]

I succeeded by taking out the warships first, else the torpedo counter-attack is deadly, they are just too close and in a war you can't wait or lose any time.

The MOSS and active tactics will work the first time but not for the 2 other times that you musst shoot 4 /2 missiles (you can only launch 4 missiles in 1 go). I had to radically change my position after my first attack. You must get away from searching planes, sonobuoys etc. before attacking a second and third time. Had I not eliminated the ships first I couldn't have changed my position radically with active pinging warships...

To succeed mission you must fire and hit with 10 TLAMs (4-4-2). and yes, there's no debrifing for single missions, I hope they add this soonest.

CW is really Red Storm Rising on high steroids keeping all interesting aspects of this Classic. This game is on a good way to become the best sub sim ever.

[GoldenRivet]

Just leaving the area has worked for me... silent running 2-5 knots, deep as possible, head north until you are near the edge of the map and fire the TLAMs 4 at a time until all 8 are fired.

you will get some aircraft attention but its 50-50 whether or not they find you.

every time i have tried it since my initial attempt i have been successful

[XenonSurf]

@GeneralGamer,
@GoldenRivet,

In CW your tactics will work because the max. range of TLAMs are highly exagerated, and your missiles will hardly get shotdown.
It should be so that the longer the range you're shooting your missiles from, the more of them will get shotdown from ship or terran defences, no mention of that in the briefing. So you should STAY in the sector and not get further away.

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by XenonSurf

In CW your tactics will work because the max. range of TLAMs are highly exagerated

source?

according to the United States Navy the range of TLAM is between 700 and 1350 nautical miles depending on the variant.

the earliest TLAMs had a range of about 700 nautical miles.

the in-mission map in Cold Waters is roughly 300 x 300 nautical miles. therefor the range of the TLAM is at least twice the size of the entire map

so i fail to see how the range of the TLAMs in game is "highly exaggerated"

IRL TLAMs can be programmed with up to 15 alternate targets to select from remotely should the primary target prove to be non-viable. additionally the TLAM can be programmed with way-points to follow in order to allow it to avoid areas of air defense and surface vessels... so in theory, cold waters should allow the player to route his TLAMs around to come from the back side of the port if he so desired. without this option, i would say leaving the surface ships unable to shoot down TLAMs is a reasonable alternative.

finally, the mission orders are to "remain undetected", if you can tell me how to sink every warship on the map without the enemy figuring out they are being shot at by a sub... i'm all ears

[XenonSurf]

Then what are you doing at 50ky at the port ? Doesn't make sense if you are not supposed to fire from that range. In the game the max range for TLAM is stated to be 2.000.000 yards, way too optimistic. I would say the effective attack range for any chance to hit a target is exactly from where you are: 50-60 nautical miles, this gives a good pre-alert time, albeit having a travel range of 500-1500 miles.
TLAMs are not ballistic rockets AFAIK, they travel only about 450-500 knots at sea level or where you program them to fly, easy targets for any better AA defence I'd think. Also you are NOT supposed (in 1984, even less in 1968) to have any control once launched or multiple PAPs (see Red Storm Rising for what this games refers on).

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by XenonSurf

Then what are you doing at 50ky at the port ?

My question exactly

Originally Posted by XenonSurf

Doesn't make sense if you are not supposed to fire from that range. In the game the max range for TLAM is stated to be 2.000.000 yards, way too optimistic. I would say the effective attack range for any chance to hit a target is exactly from where you are: 50-60 nautical miles, this gives a very reduced pre-alert time, albeit having a travel range of 500-1500 miles.

just because thats where you start, doesnt mean thats where you have to shoot... like i said in real life the TLAM can navigate to predetermined waypoints to avoid defended areas. in theory the TLAM should be able to navigate its way around the entire border of the map before running out of fuel. in a more realistic sense you should be able to set multiple waypoints (a la Jane's 688i) to go around the ships entirely, instead CW only lets you fire TLAMs in a straight line like all the other weapons in game... not realistic at all. The TLAM also flies too high in game... to avoid detection by on shore defenses it can fly nap of the earth which is also not simulated in game... some cruise missile types are "swarm weapons" meaning they are meant to be fired in large groups, even if half of the swarm is eliminated by defenses they cant shoot them all down.

Originally Posted by XenonSurf

TLAMs are not ballistic rockets AFAIK, they travel only about 450-500 knots at sea level or where you program them to fly, easy targets for any better AA defense I'd think. Also you are NOT supposed to have any control once launched (see Red Storm Rising for what this games refers on).

according to the United States Navy

TLAMs can loiter over a battle area and send back images of the scene to commanders allowing targets to be selected at will

TLAMs can also be re-programed mid flight via satellite to change course, abort, change targets or reroute the missile to any coordinates on earth within its cruise range.

the point of TLAMs is not to cruise straight through the enemy defenses and hope for the best, it was designed from the start as an intelligent smart weapon which could be steered around defended areas, fly under the radar, and be guided around SAM sites, AAA defenses, Ships etc. en route to the target

finally, launching the weapon from the submarine is a DEAD giveaway as to the submarine's position as it leaves an immediately visible plume of launch smoke and water about 50-100 feet into the air for some time. no commander in his right mind would take his boat to within 10 miles of the coast, in water barely 150 foot deep, while surrounded by ASW craft if multiple types and release this kind of weapon.

see the video here...

you have just alerted a Krivak, two Grishas, a Poti, 2 helicopters and an ASW maritime patrol plane - all within 5 miles of you - revealed your location, and you have literally 100 feet under your keel... its tactical suicide

[XenonSurf]

I'm sure since the year 2000 or so TLAMs have these characteristics, but not in 1984, and less in 1968, the time frames which CW plays the campaigns. I still have the manual of Red Storm Rising saying there are no multiple PAPs (waypoints), only 1 PAP you can set with a seeker of 60° once activated. And you have no control once launched.
Certainly the RSR manual doesn't reflect real capabilities of this magnificient weapon, so I'm still PUZZLED about this mission and the little distance to target

[GoldenRivet]

All variants of the TLAM offered mid course GPS and/or inertial guidance sources from what ive read on the subject.

none of the TLAM variants, ever, were simply straight run as indicated in game.

at the very least, cold waters should allow for waypoints to be set for the TLAMs

and i maintain, that from a tactical standpoint, there would not be a need to fire tube launched or VLS launched TLAMs in 200 foot of water within mere miles of surface and air based ASW assets... to do so would simply be suicide.

even if you managed to substantially alter course and speed after firing the weapon, you would have no depth for vertical maneuvering, and the airborne ASW threats would have your position nailed down to within a 2-3,000 yard margin of error and would have a response time measured in minutes - probably 3 minutes or less. Frankly, you'd be boxed in right after launching your sortie.

with TLAMs as they are in cold waters, the best bet is to get as far away from the port facility as possible and make your attack.

[XenonSurf]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

and i maintain, that from a tactical standpoint, there would not be a need to fire tube launched or VLS launched TLAMs in 200 foot of water within mere miles of surface and air based ASW assets... to do so would simply be suicide.
(...)

I agree with that of course, and from the beginning of this thread. I think the mission briefing needs to be changed, maybe you are the only sub in the sector to justify the use of TLAM's at such a short range, or a story like some trucks are ready to leave port with high-sensible material and must be destroyed asap etc..., and so your situation is indeed a very bleak one

To be honest:
In the meantime I have replayed this mission 2 times and got sunk towards the end after launching 2 missile attacks, the first one went ok and I managed to sink all warships before the launch, in the 2nd attack a plane has 'magically' spot me although I've made a stealth course change and got good distance away (I was at 10 knots and not cavitating, 15k yards away from my 2nd launch position, how the hell could he overfly me ??). My suspicion is that because of the shallow depth the plane was able to simply see my sub from the air despite my 150 feet depth (the ground was 212 feet). The plane dropped bombs, I had to blow my tanks to surface after damage and ...

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by XenonSurf

To be very honest:
In the meantime I have replayed this mission 2 times and failed miserably at the mission end after launching 2 missile attacks, the first one went ok, in the 2nd attack a plane has 'magically' spot me although I've made a savant course change. My suspicion is that at such a shallow depth the plane was able to simply see my sub from the air despite I my 150 feet depth (the ground was 212 feet). The plane dropped bombs, I had to blow my tanks to surface and ...

this has been my experience every time i didnt put plenty of distance between myself and the target