[REL] FOTRS Ultimate Project

[s7rikeback]

Originally Posted by propbeanie

The mileage has been shortened way in, so that there is a minimal chance of receiving a new assignment. There was a two-fold reason. Number one being that we didn't want folks getting assigned the SpecOps missions, which have not been edited yet. Number two, was to cut down on renown awarded to players, since the game seems to use the renown score over every other means of attempting to control when the game assigns new submarines. From what you and I have seen, the game even ignores the UpgradeClass numbers, in addition to ignoring availability dates. Therefore, basically speaking, just about everything below the "ContactReport" section in the DynamicMission.cfg file has been greatly restricted. We'll probably re-edit the file, move file assignments around, and make it work further down its list. I do want to get some Lifeguard missions going better than what they do currently though, before that happens.



Basically yes, but all ships have a zon file, just not all have an internal damage "model". Like, there is a 3D object that you see as a "ship", there is also a 3D object that you see as "damage" that can shine through "holes" in said "ship". There are spheres and boxes used in the zon file, along with "hit points" that determine when a ship has enough damage to "sink", but you may never "see" said "damage", dependent upon the ship "model". The way the "damage" is drawn, is why you might see a hole punched into a ships hull, but it gets "drawn" a few feet away from where you actually hit it...

If memory serves me correctly, there is also a damage model within certain ship model .dats and that also will provide "holes in hulls" when hit.

[Front Runner]

I have noticed that the dive times seem longish. When your boat is on the surface AND 18 feet (for the Balao), and you press the "D" key (planes set for normal dive), it seems to submerge to about 22 feet and hang there for about 20 seconds or more, then slowly continue the dive until finally it goes under.
Now if you "surface" and do not wait (about 5 minutes) for the "keel depth" to return to 18 feet, (simulating low pressure blow), then the serial dive, from about 20 feet, (the next dive) happens much faster.


"Crash Dive" (from 18 feet) only sets the engines to "Flank" and the dive does not initiate any faster than with the "D" key. It still hangs at 22 feet before continuing. Any "serial dive" (from 20 feet) submerges the boat much faster.


To test this, you have to wait about 5 minutes between dives.

[merc4ulfate]

Originally Posted by CapnScurvy

History lesson #2

For those thinking "What's wrong with the AI"? "Why is the Japanese AI not doing things as I expect, 'cause in past games (SHIII; Stock SH4), they acted differently"?

Great explanation Capn Scurvy ... we appreciate that.

[merc4ulfate]

Originally Posted by KaleunMarco

why is it that some ships display the shell/torpedo damage with holes and some do not?

for example, if i am using my deck gun to finish off a merchie, sometimes i can see the holes that i am putting into her sides and sometimes i cannot. the ordnance create damage because the ship ultimately sinks.

same thing is true with torpedos. sometimes i see a nice explosion hole and sometimes all i see is the explosion but no hole. yes, i know what you're thinking that the torpedo was a dud but when you see an explosion and the ship sinks, then the torpedo was no dud...it just didn't leave a graphical hole in the side.

so, why the apparent inconsistency? is this a ship-to-ship variance or is there something more subtle at work here.

the world wonders. well, at least a small part of the world.......

The holes are eye candy. Your hits do damage but you will not always see an actual hole.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by merc4ulfate

Great explanation Capn Scurvy ... we appreciate that.

Ditto. Believe me the team talked about that. The original FOTRS, MadMax version of enemy AI was insanely difficult--on the level of the Battle of the Atlantic. And that's understandable as the AOTD (Aces of the Deep) are a German modding group.

But JANAC publications and the studies that CapnScurvy has already talked about painted a very different picture of the Pacific war. Once that fact was established we plunged whole hog into trying to reproduce reality instead of unrealistic challenge. Only Real Fleet Boat tried that in the past. We've gone a good deal further than they did.

[merc4ulfate]

Originally Posted by Front Runner

I have noticed that the dive times seem longish. When your boat is on the surface AND 18 feet (for the Balao), and you press the "D" key (planes set for normal dive), it seems to submerge to about 22 feet and hang there for about 20 seconds or more, then slowly continue the dive until finally it goes under.
Now if you "surface" and do not wait (about 5 minutes) for the "keel depth" to return to 18 feet, (simulating low pressure blow), then the serial dive, from about 20 feet, (the next dive) happens much faster.


"Crash Dive" (from 18 feet) only sets the engines to "Flank" and the dive does not initiate any faster than with the "D" key. It still hangs at 22 feet before continuing. Any "serial dive" (from 20 feet) submerges the boat much faster.


To test this, you have to wait about 5 minutes between dives.

LONGISH You say?!?!?!

I feel over the years this has been one of the hardest things to adjust for people who create the mods. A real time run from Surface at 10 knots to Periscope Depth was 36 second for a Tambor. It's two minutes with FOTRSU.

This is not the fault of the modders in my opinion it is simply one of, if not the hardest, things in the game to get historically correct because of the way the game was designed.

Best Time I have ever seen was 96 seconds on a crash dive while trying to level off at periscope depth.

[merc4ulfate]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

Ditto. Believe me the team talked about that. The original FOTRS, MadMax version of enemy AI was insanely difficult--on the level of the Battle of the Atlantic. And that's understandable as the AOTD (Aces of the Deep) are a German modding group.

But JANAC publications and the studies that CapnScurvy has already talked about painted a very different picture of the Pacific war. Once that fact was established we plunged whole hog into trying to reproduce reality instead of unrealistic challenge. Only Real Fleet Boat tried that in the past. We've gone a good deal further than they did.

Was anything done with the Campaign layers and shipping traffic like in Run Silent Run Deep? I was reading through some changes but maybe I missed it.

[KaleunMarco]

Originally Posted by merc4ulfate

The holes are eye candy. Your hits do damage but you will not always see an actual hole.

i agree but i like seeing the holes and wondered why sometimes they appear and sometimes they dont.

i have an inquiring mind with a need to know.

[merc4ulfate]

Originally Posted by Front Runner

I have noticed that the dive times seem longish. When your boat is on the surface AND 18 feet (for the Balao), and you press the "D" key (planes set for normal dive), it seems to submerge to about 22 feet and hang there for about 20 seconds or more, then slowly continue the dive until finally it goes under.
Now if you "surface" and do not wait (about 5 minutes) for the "keel depth" to return to 18 feet, (simulating low pressure blow), then the serial dive, from about 20 feet, (the next dive) happens much faster.


"Crash Dive" (from 18 feet) only sets the engines to "Flank" and the dive does not initiate any faster than with the "D" key. It still hangs at 22 feet before continuing. Any "serial dive" (from 20 feet) submerges the boat much faster.


To test this, you have to wait about 5 minutes between dives.

I'd like to give you an update on this. Two of my crew have been upgraded to specialist and part of their special ability is faster dive times. Here are some test I ran:

Speed 10 knots time (IN SECONDS) to dive from surface to 60 feet.

55, 63, 76, 76, 76 Average dive time of five dives 69.2 seconds


Speed Flank (21 knots) Time (IN SECONDS) to dive from surface to 60 feet.

55, 50, 46, 52, 46 Average dive time of five dives 49.8

[KaleunMarco]

Originally Posted by merc4ulfate

I'd like to give you an update on this. Two of my crew have been upgraded to specialist and part of their special ability is faster dive times. Here are some test I ran:

Speed 10 knots time (IN SECONDS) to dive from surface to 60 feet.

55, 63, 76, 76, 76 Average dive time of five dives 69.2 seconds


Speed Flank (21 knots) Time (IN SECONDS) to dive from surface to 60 feet.

55, 50, 46, 52, 46 Average dive time of five dives 49.8

indeed, that is not bad.
if you tweek the DiveSpeed just a bit you can get the dive nearer to 30 seconds...which would put you an a par with the Nerka in Area 7.

[propbeanie]

Originally Posted by merc4ulfate

Was anything done with the Campaign layers and shipping traffic like in Run Silent Run Deep? I was reading through some changes but maybe I missed it.

We haven't done too much yet towards an RSRDC-type campaign, but we have attempted to have fewer escorts early, more later. Tougher escorts with the Task Forces and Troop Transports early, weaker later. You'll see more single and double merchants in 41-42, then the convoys will get going. There are still a few convoys early, but more singles. The traffic will also decrease later in the war, but I haven't gone through the last layer yet, and made the ships smaller (that is planned). You'll also see CapnScurvy's handiwork in kamikaze planes later in the war, if you don't pay attention while on the surface. We might attempt an add-in mod later with more traffic changes, but that is down the list still. I'm still working on getting the SpecOps up to snuff. We want more variety, and "coordinated assault procedures"!

As for dive times, there is a fine line of balance there. We've watched CapnScurvy test and re-test, and then test some more, only to find that something else is now out of whack. Either you have fast dive times, and an unstable boat that can't seem to find PD, maybe to the point of breaching (now, ~that's~ "realism"!), or you can have slightly longer dive times. What I have found, and it might just be my imagination (don't ask my wife about it... ), but I've been "practicing" dives with my crew as we're on the way out, and their times seem to improve the more we do it... dunno. Kind of like you have the crew using the deck gun on a sampan, and they can't hit it for nothing. Go to the deck gun, shoot a few shots yourself - using the range you obtained from the TBT, of course. Hit it a few times, then give it back, and magically, the crew will start hitting it. Of course, don't accidentally "target" a friendly with your binocs afterwards, 'cause they'll hit it on the first shot...

[Front Runner]

Originally Posted by propbeanie

As for dive times, ........
but I've been "practicing" dives with my crew as we're on the way out, and their times seem to improve the more we do it... dunno. Kind of like you have the crew using the deck gun on a sampan, and they can't hit it for nothing. Go to the deck gun, shoot a few shots yourself - using the range you obtained from the TBT, of course. Hit it a few times, then give it back, and magically, the crew will start hitting it. Of course, don't accidentally "target" a friendly with your binocs afterwards, 'cause they'll hit it on the first shot...

Just make sure to wait 5 minutes between dives (simulating low pressure blow?) to obtain an accurate stop watch dive time. If you just surface and simply wait for your watch crew to populate the bridge and then dive again, the boat just plunges down quickly. The boat isn't really surfaced. It has "surfaced" but hasn't yet completed the low pressure blow. Watch and see how long it takes for the boat to rise from 20 feet to 18 feet.

I'm not unhappy with my dive times, it just seems that the boat gets "stuck" too long at 22 feet on the dive from 18 feet (Balao Class)

[Front Runner]

Originally Posted by merc4ulfate

I'd like to give you an update on this. Two of my crew have been upgraded to specialist and part of their special ability is faster dive times. Here are some test I ran:

Speed 10 knots time (IN SECONDS) to dive from surface to 60 feet.

55, 63, 76, 76, 76 Average dive time of five dives 69.2 seconds


Speed Flank (21 knots) Time (IN SECONDS) to dive from surface to 60 feet.

55, 50, 46, 52, 46 Average dive time of five dives 49.8

Are you timing your dives from when the boat is fully surfaced? That would be 18 feet for the Balao Class.

If you are diving, then surfacing, then diving without waiting for the boat to come up to 18 feet, then your dive times will be much faster.

If I perform a dive using the Balao from completely surfaced (18 feet keel) to Periscope depth (60 feet in the Balao,) it takes about 2 minutes 37 seconds (D key.) If I surface, then dive again while the keel depth is at 19 or 20, then the boat plunges to PD in about 55 seconds. That's a big difference. If I wait about 5 minutes (simulating low pressure blow?) then it again takes the full 2 minutes 37 seconds (D key) to PD. Crash Dives take about 1 minute 40 seconds to PD (60 feet) from 18 feet in a Balao Class.

[Front Runner]

Originally Posted by merc4ulfate

LONGISH You say?!?!?!

I feel over the years this has been one of the hardest things to adjust for people who create the mods. A real time run from Surface at 10 knots to Periscope Depth was 36 second for a Tambor. It's two minutes with FOTRSU.

This is not the fault of the modders in my opinion it is simply one of, if not the hardest, things in the game to get historically correct because of the way the game was designed.

Best Time I have ever seen was 96 seconds on a crash dive while trying to level off at periscope depth.

Agreed! It's not the fault of the modders.

[merc4ulfate]

Originally Posted by Front Runner

Are you timing your dives from when the boat is fully surfaced? That would be 18 feet for the Balao Class.

If you are diving, then surfacing, then diving without waiting for the boat to come up to 18 feet, then your dive times will be much faster.

If I perform a dive using the Balao from completely surfaced (18 feet keel) to Periscope depth (60 feet in the Balao,) it takes about 2 minutes 37 seconds (D key.) If I surface, then dive again while the keel depth is at 19 or 20, then the boat plunges to PD in about 55 seconds. That's a big difference. If I wait about 5 minutes (simulating low pressure blow?) then it again takes the full 2 minutes 37 seconds (D key) to PD. Crash Dives take about 1 minute 40 seconds to PD (60 feet) from 18 feet in a Balao Class.

Yes but my times are from fully surfaced at 15 feet. I then wait on another dive until the boat is at 15 feet once more. This is for Tambor and Gar.