[REL] FOTRS Ultimate Project

[KaleunMarco]

Originally Posted by propbeanie

I would be inclined KaleunMarco, to say that the 10 is over-powered... They are one of the reasons I like driving a sugar boat...

nay, i say


seriously, the relationship between the torpedos' (US) hit-strength in SH4 has always baffled me. i read the various contributors' posts about reality and realism but things like this seem out-of-whack. hey, it's only an opinion.


so, merc4sulfate, did you get enough info to form your own opinion?

[propbeanie]

exactly! I have no clue as to how "strong" a torpedo should be in the game, but reading about how many it took to sink the Yamato and Musashi - From The Death of the Battleship:

On October 24, 1944, the Musashi was sunk during this battle by 17 bomb strikes and 19 torpedo strikes

The world’s largest and most powerful battleship was destroyed in less than two hours by an unknown number of bombs and torpedoes. (pb: at least 8)

Of course, the battleship "died" at Pearl Harbor. The CV may not be too far behind it now... but anyway, it took a lot to sink a battleship.

So, why did the Shinano go down with only four hits, having been built on a Yamato Class hull, you might ask? (from The Sinking of the Shinano):

The Shinano had been built with what were thought to be torpedo-proof blisters of armor on each side of the ship. Much of the ship had four-inch steel plating reinforced with three feet of concrete. But because Captain Enright set the torpedoes to run at 10 feet rather than deeper, they hit above the protective armor.

[merc4ulfate]

Originally Posted by propbeanie

... and here, cdrsubron7 & I were seeing the almost opposite of that... You get within 6800 yards of a DD, and they were on you like shtink... of course, I was in a sugar boat... bad bearings and all... but we'll look into that merc4ulfate. Where are you based, and what boat? thanks

Feb. 1942 based in Midway began 12/41 ... they just gave me a Gar I had been running a Tambor. I have come to realize the Task force I saw was Yamamoto's Battle group which was separate from the Carrier Force attacking Midway.

I reloaded by last port exit and went back (because I wrote the coordinates down) and this time it only took 5 torpedoes to sink the Yamato. It also took 4 to sink the escort carrier.

I shot from the Yamato's port side. One hit on the bow the second crossed the bow and mysteriously hit the starboard side midway between the bow tip and turret one. A third midsection port side. I was running flank speed matching and paralleling her course. These hits slowed her and I moved in front crossing her bow turning about to her starboard side and put two more in her one midsection and one slightly forward of that area.

None of the at least 6 destroyers came to investigate. I also put 3 in the Nagato for moderate damage, 2 into a chitose for moderate damage 4 duds, 2 premature detonations and 4 misses.

I moved off south and surfaced. I shadow the Battle group for a short time but was spotted and finally fired upon at about 8000 yards by a destroyer. I escaped after being hit three times by shells doing 14% hull damaged and returned to Midway.

I had one IJN plane come within 1600 yards of me and never turned to come after while on another occasion I was spotted at 7000 yards and bombed.

I have a couple of eye candy issues I noticed during this mission:



I believe this is a Fubuki with part of the bottom hull plates showing on the side. A quick repair job at Truk Maybe ?? LOL It also has some rather large white seam lines in the bottom plates.

The Nagato seems to have some very smooth texture and odd pattern under the main weapon mounts:

[merc4ulfate]

Originally Posted by KaleunMarco

nay, i say


seriously, the relationship between the torpedos' (US) hit-strength in SH4 has always baffled me. i read the various contributors' posts about reality and realism but things like this seem out-of-whack. hey, it's only an opinion.


so, merc4sulfate, did you get enough info to form your own opinion?

At this time it would appear Zeros ignore me, the destroyers fear me as a sea god, IJN love me so much they slow down so I can fish them easier and depending on what shirt I am wearing will increase or decrease the amount of fish to sink the Yamato. Hawaiian shirt seems to be the best one to wear so far.

[KaleunMarco]

Originally Posted by merc4ulfate

At this time it would appear Zeros ignore me, the destroyers fear me as a sea god, IJN love me so much they slow down so I can fish them easier and depending on what shirt I am wearing will increase or decrease the amount of fish to sink the Yamato. Hawaiian shirt seems to be the best one to wear so far.

I WANT THAT!
send me the details, asap!!

[s7rikeback]

Originally Posted by propbeanie

exactly! I have no clue as to how "strong" a torpedo should be in the game, but reading about how many it took to sink the Yamato and Musashi - From The Death of the Battleship:

On October 24, 1944, the Musashi was sunk during this battle by 17 bomb strikes and 19 torpedo strikes

The world’s largest and most powerful battleship was destroyed in less than two hours by an unknown number of bombs and torpedoes. (pb: at least 8)

Of course, the battleship "died" at Pearl Harbor. The CV may not be too far behind it now... but anyway, it took a lot to sink a battleship.

So, why did the Shinano go down with only four hits, having been built on a Yamato Class hull, you might ask? (from The Sinking of the Shinano):

The Shinano had been built with what were thought to be torpedo-proof blisters of armor on each side of the ship. Much of the ship had four-inch steel plating reinforced with three feet of concrete. But because Captain Enright set the torpedoes to run at 10 feet rather than deeper, they hit above the protective armor.

German Subs:

SH_Torpedo_G7e_TII - Min = 120.0 / Max 180.0

SH_Torpedo_G7a_TI_FATI - Min = 120.0 / Max 180.0

SH_Torpedo_G7a_TI - Min = 120.0 / Max 180.0

SH_Torpedo_G7e_TIII - Min = 120.0 / Max 180.0

SH_Torpedo_G7e_TIII_FATII - Min = 120.0 / Max 180.0

SH_Torpedo_G7es_TIV - Min = 80.0 / Max 160.0

SH_Torpedo_G7es_TV - Min = 80.0 / Max 160.0

SH_Torpedo_G7es_TXI - Min = 80.0 / Max 160.0

SH_Torpedo_G7ut_TVII - Min = 120.0 / Max 180.0

SH_Torpedo_G7a_T1-LuT1 - Min = 120.0 / Max 180.0

SH_Torpedo_G7e_T3-LuT2 - Min = 120.0 / Max 180.0

US Torps:

SH_Torpedo_Mk27 - Min = 90.0 / Max 130.0

SH_Torpedo_Mk10 - Min = 100.0 / Max 150.0

SH_Torpedo_Mk14 - Min = 110.0 / Max 160.0

SH_Torpedo_Mk18 - Min = 110.0 / Max 160.0

SH_Torpedo_Mk16 - Min = 140.0 / Max 200.0

SH_Torpedo_Mk23 - Min = 110.0 / Max 160.0

Plus there are other variables, like [AP] tag "The armor level it penetrates." So for the SH_Torpedo_Mk23 it's measured at 100.0.

The stock game has the SH_Torpedo_Mk27 - Min = 50.0 / Max 110.0...

Now compare this:
NBB_Yamato has 1500 Armour Level
NBB_Kongo has 800 Armour Level
NBB_Bismark has 1500 Armour Level

Your average CL / CA ranges from 30 to 85 Armour Level

Your average DD ranges from 25 to 30 Armour Level

[s7rikeback]

Originally Posted by merc4ulfate

Feb. 1942 based in Midway began 12/41 ... they just gave me a Gar I had been running a Tambor. I have come to realize the Task force I saw was Yamamoto's Battle group which was separate from the Carrier Force attacking Midway.

I reloaded by last port exit and went back (because I wrote the coordinates down) and this time it only took 5 torpedoes to sink the Yamato. It also took 4 to sink the escort carrier.

I shot from the Yamato's port side. One hit on the bow the second crossed the bow and mysteriously hit the starboard side midway between the bow tip and turret one. A third midsection port side. I was running flank speed matching and paralleling her course. These hits slowed her and I moved in front crossing her bow turning about to her starboard side and put two more in her one midsection and one slightly forward of that area.

None of the at least 6 destroyers came to investigate. I also put 3 in the Nagato for moderate damage, 2 into a chitose for moderate damage 4 duds, 2 premature detonations and 4 misses.

I moved off south and surfaced. I shadow the Battle group for a short time but was spotted and finally fired upon at about 8000 yards by a destroyer. I escaped after being hit three times by shells doing 14% hull damaged and returned to Midway.

I had one IJN plane come within 1600 yards of me and never turned to come after while on another occasion I was spotted at 7000 yards and bombed.

I have a couple of eye candy issues I noticed during this mission:



I believe this is a Fubuki with part of the bottom hull plates showing on the side. A quick repair job at Truk Maybe ?? LOL It also has some rather large white seam lines in the bottom plates.

The Nagato seems to have some very smooth texture and odd pattern under the main weapon mounts:

Drat - I'm pretty sure that Fubuki texture issue was fixed way back by me?!?!? how the hell.....

[propbeanie]

Now, merc... here's what the Nagato looks like in my game:

BEFORE:




and AFTER:




Ya gotta show what ya did with 'em...

That was six torpedo hits, five of which detonated, along with the Nevada and other Allied BB across the bay actually taking the credit for the sinking away from me... sigh...

[KaleunMarco]

why is it that some ships display the shell/torpedo damage with holes and some do not?

for example, if i am using my deck gun to finish off a merchie, sometimes i can see the holes that i am putting into her sides and sometimes i cannot. the ordnance create damage because the ship ultimately sinks.

same thing is true with torpedos. sometimes i see a nice explosion hole and sometimes all i see is the explosion but no hole. yes, i know what you're thinking that the torpedo was a dud but when you see an explosion and the ship sinks, then the torpedo was no dud...it just didn't leave a graphical hole in the side.

so, why the apparent inconsistency? is this a ship-to-ship variance or is there something more subtle at work here.

the world wonders. well, at least a small part of the world.......

[KaleunMarco]

here is another FOTRSU 8.0 question:

say you are out on patrol and you complete the primary objective. you have plenty of fuel (and food) and weapons remaining. you can use the Send Status Report and receive another objective. Sometimes. But it seems that capability is not in FOTRSU as it is in other megas. was that purposeful or was is just one of things that didnt make it into the release due to time constraints?

make no mistake, this is not a complaint, merely a question of comparing this mega to other megas and stock.

[s7rikeback]

Originally Posted by KaleunMarco

why is it that some ships display the shell/torpedo damage with holes and some do not?

for example, if i am using my deck gun to finish off a merchie, sometimes i can see the holes that i am putting into her sides and sometimes i cannot. the ordnance create damage because the ship ultimately sinks.

same thing is true with torpedos. sometimes i see a nice explosion hole and sometimes all i see is the explosion but no hole. yes, i know what you're thinking that the torpedo was a dud but when you see an explosion and the ship sinks, then the torpedo was no dud...it just didn't leave a graphical hole in the side.

so, why the apparent inconsistency? is this a ship-to-ship variance or is there something more subtle at work here.

the world wonders. well, at least a small part of the world.......

It's all down to the .zon files, and whatever damage zones have been created by the author of the ship in question.

[CapnScurvy]

History lesson #2

For those thinking "What's wrong with the AI"? "Why is the Japanese AI not doing things as I expect, 'cause in past games (SHIII; Stock SH4), they acted differently"?

It's due to my attempt in follow a more realistic, historical behavior of the Japanese. My source of information, the two U.S. Military studies of Japanese equipment and behavior......."Reports of the U.S. Naval Technical Mission To Japan (1945 – 1946)" and "US Strategic Bombing Survey – Pacific War". If these linked sites don't give you the documentation you're looking for, just do a search on the web using the titles above to find one that will.

Here are excerpts of the Strategic Bombing Survey's, War against Japanese Transportation volume:

JAPANESE COUNTERMEASURES
The Japanese apparently went into the war without providing adequately for the vulnerability of their merchant marine to attack. In the early months of the war, merchant vessels were not armed, and no effective convoy system was in use. Until about March 1944 there were only about 25 vessels regularly assigned to convoy escort duty. An additional 40 subchasers too small for open water sailing were distributed among the various naval bases for local defense. Convoying was not regularly begun until 1943 and then only on the Singapore run. But escort was provided to some degree, at least in the southern area, early in the war. What few convoying ships there were were stepchildren of the Navy, wornout vessels that were no longer of use to the fleet. The great bulk of the ships went unescorted. Each naval base was responsible for the safety of ships passing through its area of operation and ship captains were required to check with the local Navy control office for information concerning the presence of Allied submarines. The only protection afforded, however, were such patrols as the local commander might feel inclined to make. Apparently for the purpose of mutual rescue, the plan of traveling in groups, even when unescorted, was adopted. The real, important and dire necessity of effective convoy of merchant ships did not become apparent to the Japanese until the first months of 1944. Then in rapid succession regular convoy routes were established to Saipan, Manila, Saigon, North Borneo, and Formosa. At the same time a large expansion in the convoy escort 2 fleet was begun and by the end of 1944 the number of vessels regularly assigned to such duty had increased to more than 150.

You guys got this?!? Their talking early 1944 before the Japanese even got to thinking about their maritime shipping. 25 escort vessels to cover the entire Pacific until March 1944, and you wonder where's the DD's???

The effectiveness of this belated effort was low. The most glaring shortcoming was in technical equipment. Sound and electronic devices for detecting submarines were almost entirely absent in the beginning. Merchant vessels traveling alone during the first 2 years of the war were sitting ducks for any sort of attack; no deck guns or antiaircraft guns were provided. Ships' officers and crews were not trained or given any indoctrination in antisubmarine tactics, and all vessels were allowed to navigate between all ports independently according to the captain's discretion. No centralized system of disseminating information about submarines and other hazards existed.

"Why aren't the escorts coming after me"?

Unlike what the Stock game has done (or other mods for that matter)......The escorts didn't have the same capabilities as the Allied military had.

When the arming of merchant vessels began early in 1943, the most ridiculous strategems were employed. Ships in the service of the Navy got top priority on naval guns, while the Army was frequently reported to be equipping its ships with field guns on wheels. Ships operated by the shipping control association received the least attention of all and were reported to have been driven to the installation of wooden guns to achieve at least the appearance of armament. Air cover for merchant convoys, when provided, was inadequate and poorly organized. No carrier escorts were ever provided, and poor liaison existed between land based air headquarters and convoys.

Ok, I've probably already made this post too long for some to bother to read. The bottom line, the Stock game and most of the mods for it do not reflect the true Pacific Theater Japanese behavior during the war. Ultimate has tried to do that.

The fact that more than half, 54.7 percent of the destruction to the Japanese merchant fleet, was attributable to submarines. That's over 5.3 million tons of the total 9.7 million tons of shipping lost by the Japanese. Do you think these kinds of numbers are attributed to the idea that the Japanese had an above average advantage in Anti Submarine Tactics?? They did not and the post war studies tell you why.

[KaleunMarco]

Originally Posted by s7rikeback

It's all down to the .zon files, and whatever damage zones have been created by the author of the ship in question.

ok...so the difference in which ship displays damage and which does not comes down to whether the ship has a damage zone to have a hole. boxes in a .ZON file. did i get that right?

[propbeanie]

Originally Posted by KaleunMarco

... you complete the primary objective. you have plenty of fuel (and food) and weapons remaining. you can use the Send Status Report and receive another objective. Sometimes. But it seems that capability is not in FOTRSU as it is in other megas. was that purposeful or was is just one of things that didnt make it into the release due to time constraints?...

The mileage has been shortened way in, so that there is a minimal chance of receiving a new assignment. There was a two-fold reason. Number one being that we didn't want folks getting assigned the SpecOps missions, which have not been edited yet. Number two, was to cut down on renown awarded to players, since the game seems to use the renown score over every other means of attempting to control when the game assigns new submarines. From what you and I have seen, the game even ignores the UpgradeClass numbers, in addition to ignoring availability dates. Therefore, basically speaking, just about everything below the "ContactReport" section in the DynamicMission.cfg file has been greatly restricted. We'll probably re-edit the file, move file assignments around, and make it work further down its list. I do want to get some Lifeguard missions going better than what they do currently though, before that happens.

Originally Posted by KaleunMarco

ok...so the difference in which ship displays damage and which does not comes down to whether the ship has a damage zone to have a hole. boxes in a .ZON file. did i get that right?

Basically yes, but all ships have a zon file, just not all have an internal damage "model". Like, there is a 3D object that you see as a "ship", there is also a 3D object that you see as "damage" that can shine through "holes" in said "ship". There are spheres and boxes used in the zon file, along with "hit points" that determine when a ship has enough damage to "sink", but you may never "see" said "damage", dependent upon the ship "model". The way the "damage" is drawn, is why you might see a hole punched into a ships hull, but it gets "drawn" a few feet away from where you actually hit it...

[J0313]

[QUOTE=s7rikeback;2586083]German Subs:

SH_Torpedo_G7e_TII - Min = 120.0 / Max 180.0

SH_Torpedo_G7a_TI_FATI - Min = 120.0 / Max 180.0

SH_Torpedo_G7a_TI - Min = 120.0 / Max 180.0

SH_Torpedo_G7e_TIII - Min = 120.0 / Max 180.0

SH_Torpedo_G7e_TIII_FATII - Min = 120.0 / Max 180.0

SH_Torpedo_G7es_TIV - Min = 80.0 / Max 160.0

SH_Torpedo_G7es_TV - Min = 80.0 / Max 160.0

SH_Torpedo_G7es_TXI - Min = 80.0 / Max 160.0

SH_Torpedo_G7ut_TVII - Min = 120.0 / Max 180.0

SH_Torpedo_G7a_T1-LuT1 - Min = 120.0 / Max 180.0

SH_Torpedo_G7e_T3-LuT2 - Min = 120.0 / Max 180.0

US Torps:

SH_Torpedo_Mk27 - Min = 90.0 / Max 130.0

SH_Torpedo_Mk10 - Min = 100.0 / Max 150.0

SH_Torpedo_Mk14 - Min = 110.0 / Max 160.0

SH_Torpedo_Mk18 - Min = 110.0 / Max 160.0

SH_Torpedo_Mk16 - Min = 140.0 / Max 200.0

SH_Torpedo_Mk23 - Min = 110.0 / Max 160.0

Plus there are other variables, like [AP] tag "The armor level it penetrates." So for the SH_Torpedo_Mk23 it's measured at 100.0.

The stock game has the SH_Torpedo_Mk27 - Min = 50.0 / Max 110.0...

Now compare this:
NBB_Yamato has 1500 Armour Level
NBB_Kongo has 800 Armour Level
NBB_Bismark has 1500 Armour Level

Your average CL / CA ranges from 30 to 85 Armour Level

Your average DD ranges from 25 to 30 Armour Level[/QU

Also the Shinano didn't have some of its water tight hatches installed yet.