Expelled student armed with assault rifle slaughters 17 at Florida high school

[Sailor Steve]

Okay, we've all had our say. Please try to make it a little less personal.

[Delgard]

They say it best to admonish in private, and praise in public.

Oh, I like the Helen Keller quote. I will remember that.

[Hawk66]

Originally Posted by Commander Wallace

As a number of forum members have already said, the answers in the coming weeks and months won't come easy. However, one possible solution is relatively easy to implement and that is a multiple layered security approach at the schools. Security checkpoints, metal detectors and staff trained to use them. Bullet proof glass in a receiving atrium for all visitors as well. Any visitors would have to be cleared in advance of the visiting day and go through the same screening process as the students in addition to submitting a reason for the visit and be approved and escorted. If a visitor / intruder poses a threat, then that threat could be isolated by means of remote locking doors, contained and if necessary, neutralized within the bulletproof atrium.

None of these provisions will keep the average person on the street safe and aren't meant to but would go a long way toward keeping our children in school safe from armed threats. These may well seem like extreme measures and I certainly would have thought so in High School when I attended. Then again, I never would have thought the carnage we have seen lately would have been possible either.

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Maybe just one think to consider: Do you want that schools and public areas become high security areas, a kind of prison? Maybe such things are needed in the short term but don't you think in the longterm the root of the issue has to be solved?

And maybe society should consider more what the young people want to change....by accident I've seen this interview this morning https://www.cbsnews.com/news/transcr...n-feb-18-2018/ and I am much impressed by the maturity of those affected by this tragedy...

[Delgard]

Not the best interview, I found it a bit disappointing. CBS, for their part, in playing on the emotions of the moment, and particularly the emotions of the children in the moment, not very developed emotions at that. But, drama does sell and all of the news organizations will keep showing it to their viewers. The one place that I find the easiest access to is the PBS News Hour show for avoiding the influences that say; news outlets have to follow for ratings adn influence that bring sponsor monies to the news outlet’s coffers.

I remember social demonstrations for other issues and they don't have much effect unless they highlight a tangible threat or criminal activity or series of activities that are coded into law. Protesting the Vietnam War, civil rights, and gender protection have taken many years to even get partially addressed. I applaud the heart, hope, and energy of these kids. I see them in my college classes and I do talk and try to bring them the un-biased outlook to directional change for their understanding,. If they still feel it is right for their social values and those around them Just remember that there have also been many that took their social values and created much damage. David Koresch, and many others, went a different way.

Some rights and liberties are very hard to change because of their purpose and legitimacy in what they are focused on. The 2nd Amendment, has a purpose above that of the wishes for any one group of people. There was very much a concern, at that time, that the government could become too oppressive or be changed by an undemocratically few, against the many. It is a basic right, one of ten basic rights. Those basic rights give us freedoms, but they also give opening to the People to have pursuit of a more-perfect Union.

The NRA, is on the firing line since they are one of few prominent gun rights organizations. But, they also support police departments, and other first responders in how they can better do their jobs when citizens impose themselves in the situation. Nobody wants to arrest the parents for barging on to the police scene, disrupting the medical first responders and the investigation as a whole.

The NRA has, also, conducted oversight or participation as a consultant to civil development techniques for communities behind the scenes to keep guns where they belong, and that is not a with a 19yo young man with probable mental issues that need addressing. Because the police, sheriffs, state, and federal assets are hampered by their job limitations, they can’t be everywhere at once.

I believe there was a failure here and changes should be made as budgets permit them to be changed. Who can be there on a regular basis? People that are around these individuals that step forward via the values of home and service work, and those that see the value in just reporting, and following up on their reporting. They can be there. They are taking a responsible action for their own community. Remember, many countries have weapons, but they teach responsibility, instill values to address problems in ways without guns. Problems do get sorted out in those places, but not with guns.

In most of these cases, I fault the parenting and inner communality for not addressing this and other social detractors for a safer environment. Notice, I only said safer. Social change on anyone topic requires leadership, tremendous support, for the opponent will fight the change because they have to be affected by it. That person out front has be out there focused on one goal and they have to be prepared to talk the right talk, walk the right walk, and be supported at the grass-roots levels. Mahatma Gandhi is one such person who has made dramatic changes. Only on one broad subject, but the concept, if seen positively and opened the way for more. The individual, after the 18th birthday, is now an adult and report issues. Their family, parents and siblings can help. So can the neighbors and the community.

The answer is not just the availability of guns and gun shops, it is having values, being responsible in having values, and expressing what values that are loving of our neighbors and, especially, our kids.

There are many steps that the School Board must address. Access points across an open-air campus, travel to and from the school, just activities that occurred in the school.

Parents, guardians have to actively manage their homes, know their neighbors on the street, and their community. They have to know that it is important and they have to report it. The losers can be/will be raised in a more responsible way and the values of acceptance, tolerance, evil practices are “not good”, and many other things will help to have a better social climate. If anyone is physically there, learning about how the different parts of the community decide to adjust and whether they do the work to implement those adjustments. Change will not be overnight, and it will be opposed.

This social change about mental illness and children’s safety is a good immediate step, but the families, the neighbors, and the whole community need to step forward.

And we need leaders at all levels that just have vision to help us go down a better road. That is America.

[Mr Quatro]

Very good Delgard ... I think the DEA and the ATF and the FBI should join together to help reduce crime, drugs and their dependence on guns to protect themselves with.

A real effort to start with apprehending at least 50% of the problem people in these areas, run up the cost of drugs and illegal guns.

Rename the DEA to drug education agency and educate a whole new generation of users before they become users.

Society is to blame and we the people are not being educated enough to control the gratifications of our senses.

[u crank]

I would like to add perhaps an obvious comment. These mass murderers like all members of society are products of that society. We all take pride and some credit when society produces good productive and exemplary members of that society. Parents, family, education and close friends play a major role in shaping good responsible citizens. But there are other factors and those other factors have changed dramatically just in my life time. We cannot underestimate the effect that these changes have on young children. I have a two year old grand-daughter who can take her fathers cell phone and find Paw Patrol on Netflix without any help. That amazes me but is also a cause for worry. I don't think anyone can gauge what the long term effects of this kind of technological change in human development will be. But there are other changes that in my opinion are just as disturbing and the main one would be in the field of education. There is little doubt that education in my country and I would say in the USA as well has a very strong Left wing/Liberal bias. A big part of that philosophy is based on a culture of victim hood and offense-taking. Political correctness threatens freedom of thought and speech; ideological orthodoxy undermines individual responsibility. This kind of thing is being taught to very young children. What are the long term effects? If a person feels that they have no real responsibility to society and believes that they are a victim of that society they are in a very dangerous position. Any society should take responsibility for all the members of that society that it produces. I don't think we are.

[Delgard]

I really wanted to leave such specifics alone. What will work in one community may not work in another. It really comes down to values.

We need people that help kids see their abilities early so that they can maximize them. Have that work ethic, community, family life, and teaching their kids.

It is such an in-depth issue, but I do work on me, and what my kids see in me. I spend time with them and I take care of part of the house. We do service work on Saturdays.

My kids are grown so we have a bit more time. I told them that if they stay past their 18 B-day and HS graduation, they paid 200 rent. Well unless they were scheduled for college in fall, then they just still had chores.

Anyway, I just don't see the news talking about parenting and community responsibilities to report something that seems rather odd. The Police currently go to do safety checks on houses if someone calls them.

Families, as a situational resource, seem to have drifted in a bad direction.

Personal, family, and community values. They should be taught early.

[August]

Originally Posted by Delgard

Anyway, I just don't see the news talking about parenting and community responsibilities to report something that seems rather odd. The Police currently go to do safety checks on houses if someone calls them.

Apparently there were over 30 calls to law enforcement about this guy including 2 to the FBI. In this case the community did their job but LE dropped the ball.

[Delgard]

Yes, that definitely was a blooper. But, hopefully the FBI Agent in Charge of the Parkland area office should be charged and fired. If the Sheriff's Department and Parkland police received calls, they get canned.

There is something to be said for responsibility and the Police have to follow the law.

The school, the owners of the house that he lived in, all showed lackadaisical actions. I have had guys stay my house from time to time, but no weapons unless I secure it. And, I do snoop. It is my house after all.

My brain is tired.

[Platapus]

In the 2016 election cycle, the NRA' political lobbying organization donated about 3% of all the monies donated to all GOP races.

I would doubt that the NRA is is even in the top 50 lobby organizations. So the argument of the NRA "buying" politicians falls apart.

Politicians may support, or even fear the NRA for many reasons, but financial donations is not one of them.

The NRA is politically powerful only because people think it is politically powerful and allow it.

If we want to politically "defang" the NRA, contact, in writing, your representatives and tell them how you feel about the NRA and its lobbying activities. Of course, if you like the NRA' lobbying activities, tell your representative.

The NRA has about 5,000,000 members. A conservative figure is that the NRA represents less than 10% of the gun owners in the US.

I have been a gun owner for about 30 years and even shot, for a short time, in competitions. I have never been a member of the NRA. Never will. I do not think the NRA supports my views concerning firearms and I believe that the NRA is harming the reputation of gun owners like me.

Unless we contact our representatives and let them how how we feel about the NRA's lobbying activities, our representatives won't know how we feel and won't change.

If the voters tell their representatives that they don't care if the politician votes against the NRA, the NRA will lose a lot of political power.

[Commander Wallace]

Originally Posted by Hawk66

Maybe just one think to consider: Do you want that schools and public areas become high security areas, a kind of prison? Maybe such things are needed in the short term but don't you think in the longterm the root of the issue has to be solved?

And maybe society should consider more what the young people want to change....by accident I've seen this interview this morning https://www.cbsnews.com/news/transcr...n-feb-18-2018/ and I am much impressed by the maturity of those affected by this tragedy...

Good point Hawk. The last thing I or anyone else wants is for schools to become prisons. Like others,we enjoyed a great deal of freedom when we went to Primary, middle and high school. You hit the nail on the head so to speak. In the short term, everything possible needs to be done to enhance security and a number of schools across the country have implemented various security upgrades.

In the long term, a comprehensive strategy needs to be formulated including addressing mental health and other issues. The problem Hawk is there have been other horrible shootings in the past. The horrible shootings at Sandy Hook Elementary in Newtown Connecticut where 20 children between the ages of 5-7 were shot and killed and as JimBuna pointed out, The massacre in Dunblane, Scotland. Like many, I have a hard time even thinking about these and other shootings and I try hard not to think of them.

Although the Scotland shootings were not in the U.S, they are just as terrible and we feel just as bad for their losses. Many other shootings with fatalities were in the U.S. The legislature is all but useless and unable to act in the best interests of these kids as evidenced by the fact that Sandy Hook took place, Dec. 14 of 2012. Little if anything has been done in that time to enhance security. While the long term implications need to be ironed out as forum members have suggested with regards to mental health being addressed, I believe in the short term, security upgrades are easy enough to be initiated.

There will obviously have to be some concessions to freedom of movement in school relative to security. There is one caveat. Security personal should be there to perform security details and that's all and not have any involvement with regards to students or official school operations or administration unless there is a clear threat. Security details and their roles should be clearly explained with overall control and oversight handled by the administration of that School district. Perhaps in the future, if these issues can be ironed out, security can be relaxed to a degree everyone is comfortable with. I think input from these students and their parents would be appropriate as well. I appreciate what you said Hawk and your input.

* I'm truly impressed by all the great posts of our forum members. It's apparent that our members put a lot of thinking into this unfortunate situation and have put forth a great deal of information to be considered. I'm honestly not surprised though considering our members backgrounds and education. I've learned a lot reading your posts. Congratulations to all of you for your well considered, thoughtful and thought provoking posts and responses. *

[vienna]

Originally Posted by Platapus

In the 2016 election cycle, the NRA' political lobbying organization donated about 3% of all the monies donated to all GOP races.

I would doubt that the NRA is is even in the top 50 lobby organizations. So the argument of the NRA "buying" politicians falls apart.

Politicians may support, or even fear the NRA for many reasons, but financial donations is not one of them.

The NRA is politically powerful only because people think it is politically powerful and allow it.

If we want to politically "defang" the NRA, contact, in writing, your representatives and tell them how you feel about the NRA and its lobbying activities. Of course, if you like the NRA' lobbying activities, tell your representative.

The NRA has about 5,000,000 members. A conservative figure is that the NRA represents less than 10% of the gun owners in the US.

I have been a gun owner for about 30 years and even shot, for a short time, in competitions. I have never been a member of the NRA. Never will. I do not think the NRA supports my views concerning firearms and I believe that the NRA is harming the reputation of gun owners like me.

Unless we contact our representatives and let them how how we feel about the NRA's lobbying activities, our representatives won't know how we feel and won't change.

If the voters tell their representatives that they don't care if the politician votes against the NRA, the NRA will lose a lot of political power.

As with so many things, it is often not the quantity, but the quality. The total percentage may be 3%, but to whom did the funds go? Like all other lobbying entities, they don't just spread the funds about to just every candidate, they target those who will be or, in the case of reelection, already are in positions to give them the most bang for the buck. Corruption of the political process is a surgical effort; get to the key Congressional committee chairs and the most influential members and you don't really need the other members...








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[vienna]

This is heartbreaking and uplifting at the same time:


Florida shooting: West Point admits murdered hero --

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43132215


A class gesture by West Point...

Thirteen years old and with a bright future; a great loss, in more ways than one. All sympathies for his parents and family...











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[Rockstar]

Just an FYI I have always thought www.opensecrets.org was a pretty good source to track political spending. Politicians are require by law to reveal or not, incoming and outgoing monies. Open secrets does the work compiling the information for you.

Its just numbers, you make the boogie man.

[Skybird]

Just read that the parliament of Florida shortly debated and refused tighter gun laws - and that they debated in length pornography and decided stricter regulations, saying that porn is a hazard to health.

Can one be even more schizophrenic?