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Old 06-21-2013, 04:54 PM   #16
iambecomelife
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This is a very good idea. One of my complaints about most simulators is perfect intelligence - how you are always guaranteed 100% credit for every kill, even when there are no friendly witnesses.

It's a lot like the kill confirmation feature for "Over Flanders Fields", which is one of my favorite flight sims.

Crazy idea - is there a way to make BDU more likely to accept claims early in the war? As late as 1940 American newspapers would publish lists of vessel sinkings, based on distress calls picked up by neutral radio operators. Presumably, German intelligence would have access to them, and could confirm that U-47 did, indeed, sink the tanker "Suzie Snowflake" on the date a claim was made for her. As the war went on, censorship became more strict and it became harder to confirm kills.
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Old 06-22-2013, 11:09 AM   #17
Karl Heinrich
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Hey LGN this looks absolutely outstanding, will definitely be giving a try ASAP. Have already been doing this unofficially but this is so much better.
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Old 06-25-2013, 02:22 PM   #18
LGN1
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Hi,

thanks for the feed-back. I'm glad that you like the mod and it seems to work. Has anyone already made some experience with over-claiming? Is BdU too strict?

I have just uploaded a new version. The main changes are:

1.) I have fixed a tiny bug concerning renown calculation if 0 BRT are claimed (only important for non-renown player)

2.) Following iambecomelife's suggestion I have implemented a new feature: Before the entry into the war of the US there is a chance that BdU knows your true tonnage from 'other sources'. In this case you get your true tonnage value (but the number of ships in your report is not changed).

As I have mentioned before, the 'BdU AI' can be easily changed. So if anyone has a suggestion, don't hesitate to ask.

3.) I have created a drop-down menu for the ship-type box (you can still also write what you like in this box). The entries in the box are taken from the EnglishNames.cfg/GermanNames.cfg file IN THE FOLDER WITH THE EXECUTABLE, i.e., you should copy your own EnglishNames.cfg/GermanNames.cfg from the SH3 ship folder to the folder with the executable (the two files contained in the download are from GWX). This guarantees that the ship type is compatible with SH3 Commander and the ship-name feature works properly.



Regards, LGN1
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Old 06-25-2013, 07:29 PM   #19
fitzcarraldo
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Downloading and testing new version...

Many thanks for the great work and support. It seems this tool will be a must have...

Regards.

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Old 07-01-2013, 01:47 PM   #20
LGN1
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Any updates? Has anyone tested the mod? Is it working properly now with the ship-name feature?

Regards, LGN1
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Old 07-15-2013, 12:10 PM   #21
Sepp von Ch.
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I have the same question. It works without problems? What is your experience?
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Old 07-16-2013, 01:32 PM   #22
LGN1
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I'm a bit surprised. Usually people here always ask for realism, but it seems no one cares about the extremely unrealistic 'perfect' spy-log. Making accurate claims was quite difficult and over-claiming happened a lot, especially later in the war when there was little time for confirming anything. Just look for Albrecht Brandi.

I'm wondering whether the mod is too difficult to install or too difficult to use Or is the basic idea too drastic If it is too extreme/difficult one can also just hide the log book and the total tonnage and the player then has to guess only the tonnage, not also the number of ships sunk.
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Old 07-21-2013, 01:12 PM   #23
Leitender
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i don´t think it´s that unrealistic. The commanders could not only watch the ships going down, but also hear the sinking sound, when submerged - like in in the game. Torpedoed ships usually sent an sss signal and their names on the 600m wave, so the u-boat commanders could normally identify what they have hitten.

What does happen ingame? If i haven´t already identified the ship when finding the TDC solution, or if i did a wrong identification (or if i shoot from the hip ), i will be corrected by the game - but if everything was ok, there´s no need to do the identification twice.

I also doubt about the BdU´s ability to get more valuable information about the scenery than the appropriate commander - besides few exeptions.

So i can see your intention to simulate failures in the commander´s assessment, but imho the game already includes the majority of the points you mentioned.
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Old 07-21-2013, 02:38 PM   #24
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Hi Leitender,

I agree with you that in the early part of the war commanders could probably in the most cases identify their targets well enough. However, during the later parts I don't think so.

Especially during late-war convoy attacks the log in SH3 is completely unrealistic. You still get the true numbers although you might be more than 15km away when the ships sinks and you have never really seen it (because you made a long-distance shot during night). I think you agree that this is very unrealistic.

Fact is that over-claiming does not exist in SH3 although it happened frequently (just read about Brandi or the T5 claims). I don't know the u-boat's claimed sunken tonnage, but I wouldn't be surprised if it differs by a factor of roughly two from the confirmed sinkings during WWII. Nothing of this is reflected in SH3.

Regards, LGN1
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Old 07-21-2013, 04:28 PM   #25
Leitender
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Hi LGN1,

i see, you talk about what Teddy Suhren called a "master shot" : 15km distance during night. Are you able to identify such a target in SH3? Nor do i.

I suppose the real kaleuns would have probably acted in the same way than we: A long distance shot without identification and hopefully getting information through radio. But the first question: How often did that happen? And the second question: Who shall proof / confirm the reports? BdU in Paris? Did you ever read anything about such a procedure?

From what i read in the past, the quality of information which achieved the head quarter, was getting worse and worse when the war was proceeding. I don´t believe that anyone else in the whole Kriegsmarine could get better information than the kaleun "in the open countryside" ("hier draußen im Grünen").

I believe this asking for credibility is a nowadays´ attitude, because we are used to think in that "bureaucratic" way. The then responsibles hadn´t that awareness, that everything had to be "confirmed" else it wouldn´t be regarded as true.

Greetings

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Old 07-21-2013, 04:45 PM   #26
desertstriker
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i think alot of it is to that in the air battles you didn't get credit fir the kill if not confirmed by another pilot or civilian but then again those battles had multiple witnesses most of the time where as the battles in the oceans and seas unles there was a battlegroup there where no witnesses other than the crew
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Old 07-22-2013, 01:09 PM   #27
LGN1
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Thanks for your replies!

@Leitender: I think people back then were at least as 'bureaucratic' as people today As desertstriker has pointed out, at least in the Luftwaffe the confirmation rules were very bureaucratic.

But I agree that (in most cases) it's not really realistic that BdU knows your tonnage more accurately than you do (and could compare them). However, for the mod to work properly one has to encourage the player to report the truth as good as possible. To achieve this, the reports have to be checked somehow and the only available reference is the actual performance/sinkings. So one should regard the difference between your reported values and the actual values as a measure for your knowledge and the details in your reports.

I'm sure BdU and other officers had some feelings about the reports of Kaleuns and how reliable these were. And this is reflected in your 'renown', a quantity difficult to measure (if you play with renown 'on' you will see that BdU hardly ever changes your reported tonnage; only your renown is changed/modified reflecting what BdU thinks of your report).

Regards, LGN1
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Old 09-02-2013, 07:05 AM   #28
sublynx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LGN1 View Post
I'm a bit surprised. Usually people here always ask for realism, but it seems no one cares about the extremely unrealistic 'perfect' spy-log.

I'm wondering whether the mod is too difficult to install or too difficult to use
I think this mod is a dream come true to a player who likes to get a more realistic AI intelligence and it brings a very welcome sense of uncertainty to the game. The mod realises the fact that not knowing what is happening is the key to any sense of real suspense.

However I haven't yet tried it for two reasons: one is that my SH3 is already a very complicated mod soup with some tweaks to the files that are unique to my system. Changing the system would need a lot of time and careful work and there would be risk that I wouldn't be able to do it properly as I make many careless mistakes when I need to be extra careful and pay attention to noticing all the different steps and pasting everything to the right places.

The other reason is my confusion about how I would like the game to react to overclaiming.

I read a book about U-564's patrol in 1942 and the book said that Suhren (the commander) claimed 7 ships and 2 damaged in his report. In reality he only sank 5 ships and the claimed damaged ships were not hit at all. I believe overclaiming was really rampant and I also believe that BdU accepted many false claims. For a myriad of reasons there were many good reasons to believe that more damage was caused than what actually was.

An example of this would be here:

http://www.uboatarchive.net/KTB154-5.htm

Kusch claimed and BdU acccepted 3 sunken, 3 damaged, but in reality the results were 1 sunken and 2 damaged.


To relive history there would also need to be a random chance of getting BdU to accept some ships to my sunken list even when I really didn't sink the ship. But on the other hand I already sink a lot more ships than what would be possible if the game was more realistic.

So in conclusion I think this mod is at the same time one of the best things that has ever been modded into SH3 but also way ahead of its time. We would need a more difficult, more realistic simulation to get the full benefits of this mod.

Don't get me wrong, though. I love the idea and will definitely try this as soon as I get my mod soup to a more stable condition. I'm amazed what you guys with programming skills can do with the game, so thanks LGN1
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Old 09-02-2013, 12:24 PM   #29
Sailor Steve
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LGN1 View Post
I'm a bit surprised. Usually people here always ask for realism, but it seems no one cares about the extremely unrealistic 'perfect' spy-log.
I apologize, LGN1. I don't know how, but I missed this entirely when you first put it up and apparently through all the replies until this latest one. My problem is that currently I'm not playing anything because my computer can't handle some of the big mods I've been wanting to try, like Iambecomelife's MFM. When I finally get a new computer I'll be wanting to give this a try. It looks pretty cool.
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Old 09-24-2013, 01:53 PM   #30
LGN1
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Thanks for your comments, sublynx & Sailor Steve!

@sublynx: the tweaks of the SH3 files are only required to hide the true data from the player's view. If you do not pay much attention to this data or don't mind getting some accurate data, you don't have to change any SH3 files to use the mod (or you can only change the *_menu.txt entries).

Concerning overclaiming: The mod actually allows and accepts overclaiming up to a certain degree. Only if you exaggerate it, you will be 'punished' (by getting less renown in renown-based mods). The degree of overclaiming is judged by the tonnage and not the number of ships sunk. You can claim 1000 ships and it's ok as long as the total tonnage is close enough to the 'real' tonnage.

As I said earlier, I think this 'punishment' is neccessary to force the player to report as accurately as possible and to avoid large overclaiming. I know the system is not perfect, but the best I can currently think of. If you have good ideas for a different system, just let me know. The 'BdU AI' can be easily changed

Regards, LGN1
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