'Sprint and Drift' for dummies?

[Stewy1]

Hi guys,

This might seem like a basic question - but what are the best techniques for keeping up with (and tracking) warships in a submarine?

I know the basic premise is to pinpoint its position (going slow) and then go deep to 'catch up' at 10-12 knots (or more) for a while, and then go slow and re-verify its position - but if you're going 12 knots close to a warship (even deep at 10,000 yards' range), it's hard not to be counter-detected.

Is there any 'secret' to a good 'sprint and drift' technique? When I try to follow warships, I'm either counter-detected, or they 'get away' because they're going too fast...

Also, how are techniques different if the warship is using active sonar?

Thanks guys
Stew

[FPSchazly]

Well, from what I understand, sprint and drift is a tactic for transiting. You run up to flank speed (or some other rather fast speed) and then kill the engine and use that momentum to carry you for a rather good chunk of distance while really only making flow noise. It’s not really as useful in Sonalysts’ games because they don’t seem to properly model the ship’s momentum versus its drag, as in you slow down pretty quickly once you order a slower speed from a faster one (engineering side bar: you should slow down pretty quickly when you let off at the fast speeds, but once you get to slower speeds, the deceleration becomes a lot smaller). It’s actually modeled decently well in Tom Clancy SSN, however.

In my experience, when it comes to warships that are moving pretty fast while transiting--on the order of say at least 15-20 kts--once they overtake you, you’ve pretty much lost all tactical advantage unless you’re very close to launching. To keep up with them at a steady speed at that point involves making yourself blind and deaf. Even if you were to go flank and “sprint and drift” to stay caught up with them, for example say you’re keeping up with a 25 knot ship.. In the 688(I), you only have an 8 knot speed of advance running at flank speed, so if they’re decently far in front of you, you’re not going to catch up with them without letting everyone in the area know you’re there (and for a long time at that).

So I guess the real question is why are you following warships? I would highly recommend only trying to engage warships if you can put yourself in a position where they come to you (tactical advantage). Otherwise, I would say abort and try to hand off the data to an ally or airborne asset. Once you lose that tactical advantage, there’s not much you can do.

I’m curious to see what others say, though.

[Mike Abberton]

I agree with FPSchazly. If the warships get ahead of you, you are in serious trouble. A couple of things, though:

1. Check what classes of ship you are dealing with. If the convoy is going 25 knots, their bow sonars are going to be useless. If they have tails, they'll be more effective, but they'll probably still have some degradation of signal (not sure on the washout speed of a tail sonar). They'll probably be pinging away on active at that speed, which is a bonus for you in a lot of ways. Active intercept is a pretty reliable means of TMA and it doesn't washout with ownship speed. Unfortunately, their helicopters (or patrol planes) will be unaffected by convoy speed. Second bonus, any SSNs covering the convoy/fleet will be challenged keeping up with the convoy as well.

2. If the enemy is coming towards you at 25 knots, work fast because you'll only get one shot. If you recognize this early enough, you might get one shot to flank ahead and gain some ground, but don't count on it.

3. If you are offset from the convoy by a good distance, don't set an intercept course, set a lead course (same course, higher speed) to get ahead of them while still at a safe distance. Build up a cushion that will allow you to get in an ambush position in front of them and slowed down.

4. If the scenario briefing (or link data) gives you an idea on their course or eventual destination. Use that to determine an appropriate ambush spot and head there immediately. Even better if you can put an obstacle (an island, etc.) between you and the convoy for a while to hide your flank run. I don't think any of the stock scenarios would allow this, but I've seen user-made scenarios that allowed this.

I hope these help.

Mike

[Stewy1]

Fascinating responses guys, I really appreciate it.

I was reading into the sinking of the Belgrano, and how Conquerer was able to 'keep up' with it and sink it once the word had been given.

I'm sure the tactics would be quite complex - perhaps that's why I'm not a naval officer!

Thanks guys,
Stew

[Hinrich Schwab]

Originally Posted by Mike Abberton

I agree with FPSchazly. If the warships get ahead of you, you are in serious trouble. A couple of things, though:

1. Check what classes of ship you are dealing with. If the convoy is going 25 knots, their bow sonars are going to be useless. If they have tails, they'll be more effective, but they'll probably still have some degradation of signal (not sure on the washout speed of a tail sonar). They'll probably be pinging away on active at that speed, which is a bonus for you in a lot of ways. Active intercept is a pretty reliable means of TMA and it doesn't washout with ownship speed. Unfortunately, their helicopters (or patrol planes) will be unaffected by convoy speed. Second bonus, any SSNs covering the convoy/fleet will be challenged keeping up with the convoy as well.

2. If the enemy is coming towards you at 25 knots, work fast because you'll only get one shot. If you recognize this early enough, you might get one shot to flank ahead and gain some ground, but don't count on it.

3. If you are offset from the convoy by a good distance, don't set an intercept course, set a lead course (same course, higher speed) to get ahead of them while still at a safe distance. Build up a cushion that will allow you to get in an ambush position in front of them and slowed down.

4. If the scenario briefing (or link data) gives you an idea on their course or eventual destination. Use that to determine an appropriate ambush spot and head there immediately. Even better if you can put an obstacle (an island, etc.) between you and the convoy for a while to hide your flank run. I don't think any of the stock scenarios would allow this, but I've seen user-made scenarios that allowed this.

I hope these help.

Mike

If the warships are going at 25Kts, their passive arrays should be washed out and their active sonar should be useless, too. In actual practice, going beyond 15-20Kts should make any warship completely deaf and the only reason to use active sonar is to spook a sub into taking a specific course. I do not remember off the top of my head if DW models the quick degradation of active sonar reliability at high speeds (need to test in MP). However, if the ship is going that fast, they should not be able to hear squat. Of course, it doesn't stop aircraft from bird-dogging for the convoy, but that is another issue entirely.

[Mike Abberton]

From playing the Perry, the active sonar does washout with speed. You might still hear the "Ding" when a target gets painted, but it's impossible to tell where it is on the screen to be able to mark it. Sometimes you can hunt and peck to find it, but it's pretty tough even in searchlight mode.

Not sure if active washout affects AI platforms or not. They seem to ping away regardless of speed though (may just depend on the EMCON setting in the scenario), so still useful to do TMA on them.

[FPSchazly]

Originally Posted by Mike Abberton

From playing the Perry, the active sonar does washout with speed. You might still hear the "Ding" when a target gets painted, but it's impossible to tell where it is on the screen to be able to mark it. Sometimes you can hunt and peck to find it, but it's pretty tough even in searchlight mode.

Not sure if active washout affects AI platforms or not. They seem to ping away regardless of speed though (may just depend on the EMCON setting in the scenario), so still useful to do TMA on them.

Also, if you're going up against a human-played Perry in multiplayer, their active has an administrative limit of 20 kyds / 10 nmi. That is, their active station doesn't register detections beyond 20 kyds. And if you're playing as a Perry, the old adage of "your enemy can detect you from eight times further than you can detect them" is even worse because of this hard limit, doubly so for single beam or omni-rotational.

[artao]

I know this is an older thread, but to add my two cents ....
One very important thing when using sprint-and-drift is to alter your course often. Sprint for maybe 5-10 minutes if contacts are close, or 10-15 minutes if they're far. If you have no contacts, you can even sprint for 20-30 minutes.
Then you make a radical course change, and check above and below the layer (if there is one) for a good 5 minutes each.
Rinse and repeat.
As others have said tho, if you have close contact, sprint-and-drift isn't going to be much use ............. BUT you can do shorter sprints, with more radical course changes.
Course and speed changes are going to mess up their firing solution. You can even put on light rudder, say 5 degrees or less, to give yourself a slight turn while sprinting. This will also mess up their firing solution. Also reverse that rudder now and then so you're kinda weaving a shallow "S" thru the water.
I've had good experiences using these methods. YMMV

[phantomkira]

Necro-thread!

What I wanted to know was: "How best to use sprint and drift simply as a transit tactic?" You're not hunting anything/anyone in particular, but you know that you'll be blind if you go too fast, but won't get anywhere anytime soon if you go slowly enough that you can effectively use your sensors all the time.

I've found that in DW anyway, a usable variation on the aforementioned tactics is thus:

Find your maximum range of your most effective, and preferably passive, sensor. Preferably this will be long ranged enough for you to hear them before they hear you. Find out how far it can hear. Cut that distance by some amount, I used "roughly" 50%. Now, using less than your maximum sensor range, use the Drawing Tool (in mission, right click on anywhere there isn't a unit in the map screen), select "Range Circle", move the cursor over Player unit, left click when the 'four-points' compass-ish pointer shows, and drag out until you have some distance less than the maximum of your sensor capability range. The distance displays in the lower left corner in degrees (where the arrow is pointing) and nautical miles. I use OnlineConversion.com for quick and easy Yards to Nautical Miles, etc. conversion. This circle will now move with the player unit, constantly displaying the set range in a circle around the unit.

Now you just use the ENTER key to put down + marks at the edge of this distance, and move to the mark, knowing it's roughly 50% of your sensor range per mark. When you get there, slow down, take a listen (with the mentioned S turns, your blind spots are 60 degrees total for Spherical and Towed arrays each, as I recall), and when satisfied that you're alone, sprint to the next mark.

Personally, I've had mixed success. I usually do 100% of the sensor distance, and just fudge the percentage to put the mark. Unfortunately, this has led to more than one occasion of coming barreling in on a Kilo. My first indication of unfriendlies after slowing being "Torpedoes in the water!!!"

On other occasions, I've been able to pick up a slight variation on slowing, and nail a Ming on the Towed Array at 68,000 yards. Pretty much dependent on how careful or impatient you are.

On the subject of the Towed Array, I've discovered something. You know how the hydrophones on the TA will give you two lines, one your contact, the other a "false positive". How do you determine, with just the TA, which is the real contact? Turn 30 or so degrees , making sure that both contacts stay on the display (don't lose one in a blind spot until you know what you're doing with this tactic). Watch the lines closely. One of the lines will go WAAYYY out of wack, huge variations. The other one will stay nice and clean, with only a cute little bump in the line for your turn troubles. Cute little bump = TARGET! That's the side your contact is on, the out-of-wack side was a ghost, false positive, etc. Ignore it.

[Aktungbby]

phantomkira!after a veeeeery long silent run!

[FPSchazly]

Originally Posted by phantomkira

Necro-thread!

What I wanted to know was: "How best to use sprint and drift simply as a transit tactic?" You're not hunting anything/anyone in particular, but you know that you'll be blind if you go too fast, but won't get anywhere anytime soon if you go slowly enough that you can effectively use your sensors all the time.

I've found that in DW anyway, a usable variation on the aforementioned tactics is thus:

Find your maximum range of your most effective, and preferably passive, sensor. Preferably this will be long ranged enough for you to hear them before they hear you. Find out how far it can hear. Cut that distance by some amount, I used "roughly" 50%. Now, using less than your maximum sensor range, use the Drawing Tool (in mission, right click on anywhere there isn't a unit in the map screen), select "Range Circle", move the cursor over Player unit, left click when the 'four-points' compass-ish pointer shows, and drag out until you have some distance less than the maximum of your sensor capability range. The distance displays in the lower left corner in degrees (where the arrow is pointing) and nautical miles. I use OnlineConversion.com for quick and easy Yards to Nautical Miles, etc. conversion. This circle will now move with the player unit, constantly displaying the set range in a circle around the unit.

Now you just use the ENTER key to put down + marks at the edge of this distance, and move to the mark, knowing it's roughly 50% of your sensor range per mark. When you get there, slow down, take a listen (with the mentioned S turns, your blind spots are 60 degrees total for Spherical and Towed arrays each, as I recall), and when satisfied that you're alone, sprint to the next mark.

Personally, I've had mixed success. I usually do 100% of the sensor distance, and just fudge the percentage to put the mark. Unfortunately, this has led to more than one occasion of coming barreling in on a Kilo. My first indication of unfriendlies after slowing being "Torpedoes in the water!!!"

On other occasions, I've been able to pick up a slight variation on slowing, and nail a Ming on the Towed Array at 68,000 yards. Pretty much dependent on how careful or impatient you are.

On the subject of the Towed Array, I've discovered something. You know how the hydrophones on the TA will give you two lines, one your contact, the other a "false positive". How do you determine, with just the TA, which is the real contact? Turn 30 or so degrees , making sure that both contacts stay on the display (don't lose one in a blind spot until you know what you're doing with this tactic). Watch the lines closely. One of the lines will go WAAYYY out of wack, huge variations. The other one will stay nice and clean, with only a cute little bump in the line for your turn troubles. Cute little bump = TARGET! That's the side your contact is on, the out-of-wack side was a ghost, false positive, etc. Ignore it.

Sounds like a pretty good tactic! Just so you know, 1 nmi is approximately equal to 2000 yd or 2000 m, so the conversion is not too bad to do in your head.

That cute little bump is the bane of my existence haha

[A-Ganger]

Man I love reading these posts!

I've only been playing DW a week or so, but I play 688i h/k long ago (like in the 90's lol) and played it again before I bought DW. Just to relearn the game.

I spent 20 yrs operating submarines but I wasn't a Sonar Tech or anything that had to do with tactical positioning etc.

However over 20 years I did quite a bit of TMA on a paper chart on the other Nav plot table and I've pretty much forgotten all that stuff till I started playing these games again.

Pretty fun stuff if you actually make an effort to grasp exactly how it all falls into play. Of course IRL, it takes quite a few people to do what we all are doing in the game by ourselves! On the other hand, playing the game, we are basically the OOD (Officer f the Deck for those who don't know the language) who has to put it all together and maneuver the sub into the best place to shoot and getting a correct/accurate firing solution to kill.. Cos that's why you join the Navy..to kill stuff lmao

Happy hunting..great responses here!

[phantomkira]

Thanks, Aktungbby. Been around a little bit, doing what I do best. Lurking. And downloading awesome mods, of course. Started out with Jane's 688 myself. Long time ago! (90s as well).

Thanks for that FPSchazly. It does make life a little easier. In theory. Sure wish those Kilos would make a little more noise though! Quiet buggers, they are.

A-Ganger, as per the TMA, I've long since decided to let "the crew" (computer automation) do most of the detection/tracking etc in SH3/4, etc. I have found, however, that in DW, you simply can't afford to let the crew do the searching, on any array, even though I leave TMA to them. They stay mum and won't tell you squat until they are absolutely certain that they have a target (sometimes this leads to nasty surprises from otherwise perfectly detectable [and avoidable] targets. More torpedoes in the water from something in the "empty ocean" they should have told you about 20 minutes ago.) Even then they usually get the classification wrong. SWAG (scientific wild ass guess), I figure that by doing sonar searches myself, I easily double detection range. I also increase percentages of (correct) classification by ridiculous amounts.

One more "cheat" I've come across that I do find handy. You're not supposed to use the Narrowband for anything more than classification. I've noticed, however, that it will pick up stuff that is indiscernible on Broadband. You can also use your mouse cursor in Narrowband to select a frequency line, and designate a target with Narrowband, long before it starts showing up on broadband. As I recall, that's how I picked up that Ming at 68,000 yards. Really did just see something "odd" on broadband, a hunch. Went to Narrowband and there it was in a nice faint green line at 50.

I've also noticed that on Narrowband, your first indication of the "next Frequency" can show up quite early... in black. If you look closely, and you have some idea what your target might be, so you know where to look on the frequency spectrum, you can reliably classify a target at far greater ranges than normal. That's in stock 1.04, though.

Unfortunately, I've also found it somewhat difficult to get specifics on frequencies, when using the mouse in Narrowband to classify targets. Example: Han vs Amethyste. The difference is only 9 on Freqency 5, and that's the only difference between the two. It seems as well, that the cursor tends to "estimate high". I've routinely found Hans to register at 1514-1517 when it should be 1511. A little disconcerting when the Amethyste is 1520. Good thing they're not likely to be in the same waters.