The Humorous/Interesting Video Thread

[CCIP]

Originally Posted by redsocialist

Yes, and most of the citizens inside former communist countries who are living there now, will say life was better under communism.

Not really. Again, that's a very complicated question. There are a lot of disaffected, mostly older people who will say that. But there's less and less of them. The current Russian government has been doing a pretty excellent job of starving off the pensioners so they don't have to deal with this risk for so much longer. And even among the older generation, there is far from a consensus - many still have little good to say about the years they had to do things they didn't want, keep their mouths shut, and deal with their friendly neighbourhood KGB agents at their door after midnight. There is a lot of living memory of it, and having known quite a number of dissidents and free-thinking people I can attest to that. I can also attest to the other side, of course, having also known good, hard-working, dedicated communists who really believed/believe in the cause. In fact I have both of those types of people in my immediate family.

Bottom line is, as I said in my very first post, the fact that things are bad now doesn't do much to excuse the wrongs of the Soviet regime. Choosing among lesser evils isn't really great choice.

[redsocialist]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

I already know for a fact that this isn't true. And I am going to ask again: Where are you from? Everyone that I know who has lived in one of these nations and under one of these regimes is happy to be out of there.

As I said before, to the ones living there now, not who fleed as "refuges" to the west. Even the bourgeois owned "Der Spiegal" came out with an article over 53 percent defend the legacy of the GDR.

But, if you long for the good old days of purges, plots, mass deportations, forced collectivization, and social repression, then I won't try to dissuade you. Still, even Lenin thought that Stalin was a monster. Holding him up as a model of what the world needs today would be laughable if I didn't know that you meant every bit of that.

Well accounting most of this is blown way out of proportion by western propaganda including the so called "50 million murdered", Yes. I am a Marxist-Leninist and guess what? A revolution is not a dinner party... Were there mistakes? Of course that doesn't mean repeat the same things. You ignore the account that 13% of prisoners in the gulags were political, the rest were thieves, rapists. Also during the time, the Nazis have heavily infiltrated so what was suppose to be done? Go around asking who's a nazi etc? And the kulaks? They refused to give up any land for collective farming while the masses starve? And also you can't compare death tolls of Communism, because Western Imperialism has murdered over Billions and continues to starve off 10,000,000 a year in the third world so don't even go there. Also most of what you mentioned is done by your own government and much worse, but again, don't even go there. And for the final time, why do I have to reveal this personal information? I don't. One final note, as the imperialist powers collapse from within, which is (VERY SOON), the people will start looking for desperate solutions which it's one or the other. And I think you know which one that will be.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by redsocialist

As I said before, to the ones living there now, not who fleed as "refuges" to the west. Even the bourgeois owned "Der Spiegal" came out with an article over 53 percent defend the legacy of the GDR.

Well accounting most of this is blown way out of proportion by western propaganda including the so called "50 million murdered", Yes. I am a Marxist-Leninist and guess what? A revolution is not a dinner party... Were there mistakes? Of course that doesn't mean repeat the same things. You ignore the account that 13% of prisoners in the gulags were political, the rest were thieves, rapists. Also during the time, the Nazis have heavily infiltrated so what was suppose to be done? Go around asking who's a nazi etc? And the kulaks? They refused to give up any land for collective farming while the masses starve? And also you can't compare death tolls of Communism, because Western Imperialism has murdered over Billions and continues to starve off 10,000,000 a year in the third world so don't even go there. Also most of what you mentioned is done by your own government and much worse, but again, don't even go there. And for the final time, why do I have to reveal this personal information? I don't. One final note, as the imperialist powers collapse from within, which is (VERY SOON), the people will start looking for desperate solutions which it's one or the other. And I think you know which one that will be.

9 million thieves and rapists? That's quite a number. It is very interesting that you hold many of the victims of the purges as selfish materialists for having the audacity to stand up for their basic human rights.

Also, I very well can compare the death tolls of Socialism (they were not, and are not Communists; we've done this dance before), as you have held the man responsible for those deaths up as the model for a new world order. Again, basic facts. And by the way, are you planning to move to a nation that enforces these ideals of state service and ownership? Maybe a North Korea? If it is such a good idea, why not put your money where your mouth is? Instead of reading the revisionist propoganda and listening to the martial music, you could experience purge-era living firsthand. See how your internet access is then.

[redsocialist]

Originally Posted by CCIP

Not really. Again, that's a very complicated question. There are a lot of disaffected, mostly older people who will say that. But there's less and less of them. The current Russian government has been doing a pretty excellent job of starving off the pensioners so they don't have to deal with this risk for so much longer. And even among the older generation, there is far from a consensus - many still have little good to say about the years they had to do things they didn't want, keep their mouths shut, and deal with their friendly neighbourhood KGB agents at their door after midnight. There is a lot of living memory of it, and having known quite a number of dissidents and free-thinking people I can attest to that. I can also attest to the other side, of course, having also known good, hard-working, dedicated communists who really believed/believe in the cause. In fact I have both of those types of people in my immediate family.

Bottom line is, as I said in my very first post, the fact that things are bad now doesn't do much to excuse the wrongs of the Soviet regime. Choosing among lesser evils isn't really great choice.

I understand your point, but I'm a realist. Also, I know the corruption in Russia, and beleive me the KPRF is very large and growing! Younger generation are starting to join within it's ranks. Russian government has fraud elections many more support Communists. I talk to comrades in KPRF and they're political position is, marxist-leninist, socialist, nationalist with economic elements. Has their ever been a true communist country? You and I both know communism a stateless, classless societies. That being said i'm not to fond of the "trotskyists " or those who applaud the fake revolutions by NATO etc which is all the same Imperialism.. But I want to ask you... Are the western countires really more "free"? Can a nation be free if it oppresses other nations? It cannot

[redsocialist]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

9 million thieves and rapists? That's quite a number. It is very interesting that you hold many of the victims of the purges as selfish materialists for having the audacity to stand up for their basic human rights.

Also, I very well can compare the death tolls of Socialism (they were not, and are not Communists; we've done this dance before), as you have held the man responsible for those deaths up as the model for a new world order. Again, basic facts. And by the way, are you planning to move to a nation that enforces these ideals of state service and ownership? Maybe a North Korea? If it is such a good idea, why not put your money where your mouth is? Instead of reading the revisionist propoganda and listening to the martial music, you could experience purge-era living firsthand. See how your internet access is then.

Okay to start with in Cuba they have fiber-optic high speed internet free (and yes the people have it) connections to Venezuela

Yes this dance, you will lose you don't want to go there. Yes 9 million, and what's the prison population of the "democracy" countries? Also you can accurately say 20 million Russians were slaughtered by the Nazis in the invasion. Also, I am moving to China for work, and plan to visit DPRK. Go ahead tell me how evil it is and they eat their people and all starve. Since I know you lived in North Korea you can say how terrible it is right? Or your going off of western fair tales? I have a good friend he has been there over 9 times? Do I need to bring him in the discussion? Do you want his email, for your questions?

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by redsocialist

Yes this dance, you will lose you don't want to go there. Yes 9 million, and what's the prison population of the "democracy" countries? Also you can accurately say 20 million Russians were slaughtered by the Nazis in the invasion. Also, I am moving to China for work, and plan to visit DPRK. Go ahead tell me how evil it is and they eat their people and all starve. Since I know you lived in North Korea you can say how terrible it is right? Or your going off of western fair tales? I have a good friend he has been there over 9 times? Do I need to bring him in the discussion? Do you want his email, for your questions?

Bring him on in, have him register on the forum. This is something that many of us would like to read. I'll be waiting.

Kid, you're what the French call a poseur. You like the military marches, the cool looking banners. Think it's rebellious and hip. But you're comfortable in life. In your heart of hearts, you know that every bit of what you are saying is nonsense. You'll say no, that I am wrong. So, I'll repeat: Put your money where your mouth is. North Korea has negative population growth; they'll welcome you with open arms. If you believe in this style of governance so much, then man up and move.

No? Didn't think so.

/discussion

[redsocialist]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

Bring him on in, have him register on the forum. This is something that many of us would like to read. I'll be waiting.

Kid, you're what the French call a poseur. You like the military marches, the cool looking banners. Think it's rebellious and hip. But you're comfortable in life. In your heart of hearts, you know that every bit of what you are saying is nonsense. You'll say no, that I am wrong. So, I'll repeat: Put your money where your mouth is. North Korea has negative population growth; they'll welcome you with open arms. If you believe in this style of governance so much, then man up and move.

No? Didn't think so.

/discussion

Kid? I could be an older age than you. And even if I was, do you have something against young people, or you had to quickly come up with some random insult. You lost now the typical western remark "if it's so great then move" Have you ever thought of ones present economic situations? Or let me guess you'll "pay for my ticket on a plane". Also about my friend, currently in Hong Kong at the moment. okay I will request he comes on but please have a list of questions, topics for him so he'll be able to address them more swiftly and not waste his time.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by redsocialist

Kid? I could be an older age than you. And even if I was, do you have something against young people, or you had to quickly come up with some random insult. You lost now the typical western remark "if it's so great then move" Have you ever thought of ones present economic situations? Or let me guess you'll "pay for my ticket on a plane". Also about my friend, currently in Hong Kong at the moment. okay I will request he comes on but please have a list of questions, topics for him so he'll be able to address them more swiftly and not waste his time.

I have no problem with the youth, only with the unshakable confidence that the youth has in believing that they know everything, even when facts and truth shoot their fledgling theories full of holes. I know from first-hand experience, you see. I was young and brash once too; substituting arrogance and loud words for common sense and believing that no one would notice. Got taken to school by those that were older as well, some of them still on this very forum. Was the best thing that could have happened to me.

And yes, if you believe, move. You insist so that despotic rule is the way of mankind's salvation. I am encouraging you to go, to experience it first hand if you believe in it. If you come back and still believe, then good. If not, then you have learned a valuable lesson indeed, and will have grown because of it.

Can't wait to hear from your friend. And rest assured that we have methods to know if he is you.

[redsocialist]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

I have no problem with the youth, only with the unshakable confidence that the youth has in believing that they know everything, even when facts and truth shoot their fledgling theories full of holes. I know from first-hand experience, you see. I was young and brash once too; substituting arrogance and loud words for common sense and believing that no one would notice. Got taken to school by those that were older as well, some of them still on this very forum. Was the best thing that could have happened to me.

And yes, if you believe, move. You insist so that despotic rule is the way of mankind's salvation. I am encouraging you to go, to experience it first hand if you believe in it. If you come back and still believe, then good. If not, then you have learned a valuable lesson indeed, and will have grown because of it.

Can't wait to hear from your friend. And rest assured that we have methods to know if he is you.

We were all young at some point, but my accounts come from people who have lived there and some living now, and didn't try to flee or fled to west like the ones you know. And currently they live in their country right now. Also I'm glad you believe what you do you'll have very big experience when you watch your empire collapse from within and you'll have nothing left, you'll become desperate.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by redsocialist

We were all young at some point, but my accounts come from people who have lived there and some living now, and didn't try to flee or fled to west like the ones you know. And currently they live in their country right now. Also I'm glad you believe what you do you'll have very big experience when you watch your empire collapse from within and you'll have nothing left, you'll become desperate.

You see, this is what is wrong with your style of argument. You came out and held up Stalin as the model for future leadership in Russia. I said that this was a bad idea and pointed to his human rights record. You counter by attacking what you percieve my beliefs to be. You make no attempt to defend your statement or idea. You say it and abandon it for assaults on what you think the other person holds dear. It is a style that I see in a lot of young people, and a poor style at that. Hell, you even close with verbal fist shaking of the 'yeah, well you'll get your's' variety. It's almost textbook.

Anyway, you've chewed up enough of my time; I'm done. I might show up if your 'friend' comes along, but this style of argument doesn't hold my interest.

[CCIP]

...and by the same token, it's very easy to speak of the needs for sacrifice in a revolution until you come face to face with living memory of it. It all sounds very reasonable as statistics, but the human problems of it are quite different. And that is the problem with such fixed, dogmatic positions - once they run into reality, they either get confused and collapse, or they lash out at everything that's different. Or both, and not necessarily in that order. And what you end up with is a mess for generations and generations to deal with, a historical trauma that leaves scars on millions of people for centuries to come. That is exactly, to a T, the story of the Soviet experiment - and no cold statistics will ever capture the real impact of it. No slogan and theory will ever justify it. The living memory of the real messy truth of Soviet times isn't going to go away very soon. Even when the people who carry it go, the damage done will stay. And for what?


The KPRF have cleaned up... a little. But their image problem isn't going to go away. Because it's not just an image, it is, in the end, what they stood for and what they can never take back. Similarly, the words "democracy" and "liberalism" are forever tarnished in Russia now, thanks to the 1990s. It will take a long time before anyone will take those seriously.

Otherwise, noone's going to solve anything with banner-waving and selective memory. And in fact, they're very likely to make things worse.


...man, I feel more DDT songs coming on
I know it's probably bad taste to spam songs in response to everything, but when the shoe fits...

Here's one for you:

It's a bitingly honest description of the stark reality of "nostalgic communism" in Russia today. Funny - but also scary if you think about it.

"Song of the Disaffected Person" (translation)

Oligarchs in Courchevel demean Komsomol songs
Pro-Kremlin sluts [censored] over capital
Liberal opposition is [censored] - at last everyone's together
Here's a chance them all into free astral space

Rather than burning in this fire for a perverse democracy
It's easier to remember how it was, raising the old furious banner
I'm rooting for our Motherland, for Stalin strictly
And don't sing me no songs that there was some kind of Gulag

Communism is good
Communism is good
Stalinism is good
Totalitarianism is good

You told me "Goodbye!", you laugh at my salary
You're turned on by the neighbour, a deputy, deadbeat and thief
That's alright, I'll put Lenin's tome beside me in bed
I'll kiss my own AKM and cherish the breech

Soon, soon I will end her and that businessman of a neighbour
They'll have a serving of my tears, we'll have some real fun
Communism is great if it's something like dinner
We will feed a proud sacrifice to the Soviet regime

A gloomy fraternity is better than bitter intercourse
Let the West fear us - those vomit-worthy bourgeois pedos
We'll unite with our master in a single movement
And our upon the skins of nations, we will leave our footprints

COMMUNISM IS GOOD
COMMUNISM IS GOOD
DARWINISM IS GOOD
IMPERIALISM IS GOOD

TOTALITARIANISM IS GOOD
CAPITALISM IS GOOD
COLLECTIVISM IS GOOD
GLOBALISM IS GOOD

RHEUMATISM IS GOOD
COMMUNISM IS GOOD
IDIOTISM IS GOOD
PLURALISM IS GOOD

ANACHRONISM IS GOOD
COMMUNISM IS GOOD
MILITARISM IS GOOD
SOCIALISM IS GOOD

[nikimcbee]

Otherwise it's great that the movie asks a lot of good questions, and shows scenes that for 70 years, noone really had a chance to freely examine. But it's not a Russia anyone should really miss. And while it offers valuable clues to how Russia (and any other country) should NOT be like, it doesn't really offer any good ways out of Russia's recurring cycle of tragedy. Maybe because really there isn't and can't be a Russia without this ongoing social, economic, political, and cultural tragedy.

Hey, I'm glad you had time to watch the film.
Question: Did your relatives suffer under the Tsar? Where were they from in Russia? I think you've mentioned it before, but I forget.

I'm trying to re-watch the film myself. My Russian is kinda rusty, but I still understand the majority of the film.

You are totally correct that the film captures the spirit in Russia in the Mid-1990's. I'd love to hear the creator's opinion of Russia today.

I always felt sorry for Nicholas II. He was definatley the wrong person for the job, not that he had much say in it. As a natioal leader, he's totally incompetent.

It would have been interresting to see how Russia could have been, if he had listened to Stolypin. AFAIR, Nicholas didn't trust him (subverting his power), and imprisoned him or killed him off.

[nikimcbee]

Great songs.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by redsocialist

Western Imperialism has murdered over Billions

Billions? We've had that discussion before, and I showed you specifically where you were wrong. Do we have to do it all over again.

and continues to starve off 10,000,000 a year in the third world so don't even go there.

How much food does America distribute, or attempt to? How much did the Soviet Union? It's easily shown that Soviet countries were subjugated by force. People who still live it former Soviet countries? Let's ask Betonov.[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by redsocialist

Kid? I could be an older age than you.

"Could be." That's the problem. Most of the people here have told their names, many of us have shown pictures, a lot of us know each other. Have you ever taken part of any personal discussions? As far as any of us can tell, you're still an invisible internet entity. There's nothing wrong with that, as long as we're discussing games, but as soon as we get to this kind of conversation you're hiding behind anonymity, unwilling to say anythng about yourself. Who are you really?

As for how free we are, have you not read the thread on Free Will? I may or may not be as free as I think I am, but I can get a job doing anything I'm capable of, I can quit that job any time I want, pull up stakes and move anywhere in the Western Hemisphere I want, or pretty much anywhere in Europe. People in the Soviet Union had to risk their lives, and did, to escape. The West didn't build the Berlin Wall. You're precious Empire did. Yes, we have troubles. But we are free to discuss them and to try to change them. No one in the Soviet Union was ever allowed the freedom to do that.

[CCIP]

Originally Posted by nikimcbee

AFAIR, Nicholas didn't trust him (subverting his power), and imprisoned him or killed him off.

Stolypin was assassinated by a left-wing radical, but a lot of historical accounts point to the Tsarist secret police having knowledge and approval of the plot. Stolypin was a good politician, although far from a straightforward figure - in some ways he was very progressive, in others he was pretty conservative. What's true is that he was pretty practical and, no doubt, his marginalization then assassination was a loss of an important voice. He could've played a key role in keeping Russia liberal after the March revolution of 1917, where one of the problems faced by the provisional government was lack of practical, assertive leaders.

Question: Did your relative suffer under the Tsar? Where were they from in Russia? I think you've mentioned it before, but I forget.

My family history is extremely mixed! (and this is probably true of a lot of Russians). On my dad's side, a large portion of my ancestry were Germans and primarily nobles - some of them high nobles, others lowly immigrants seeking new opportunities or courtiers who fell out of favour. Most of them had a favourable view of the Tsar, although not all of them had good fortunes. Some of them were, in fact, his relatives. Two of the noble families I was related to just flat-out fell out of favour during the conservative Alexander III's (Nicholas II's father's) rule because of their association with his liberal, idealist predecessor Alexander II. Another was a lowly noble from Saxony who moved to the Ukraine, where he owned some land but was never happy or successful. He lived with a Ukrainian woman whom he couldn't marry because the Orthodox church prohibited it.

One of my great-great-grandfathers was born in a Jewish family in Odessa, and was an extremely talented artist. He was hired by the Tsar to teach art at his own private academy in Tsarskoye Selo, and the Tsar's family also commissioned a number of his paintings and mosaics, for some of which he was paid as much as 3000 roubles a piece (an astronomical sum in those times!). However his family was always quite poor. Why? Well, the reason was that the money he was making was largely going to fund the Bolshevik party! My great-great-grandfather was bitter that being able to move to St. Petersburg and work as an artist (for the Tsar), he was forced to convert to Orthodox Christianity, was disowned by his Jewish parents, and was still denied opportunities and advancement because of his origins. Another ugly fact of the "lost Russia" - it was viciously (and often violently) anti-Semitic at the turn of the 20th century. My grandfather firmly and genuinely believed in radical revolutionary ideals, because he wanted to change Russia into a place where people had equal opportunities - so he poured all his savings into the cause. After the revolution, however, his work was increasingly political rather than artistic, which is unfortunate because art was his real talent. Even more unfortunate because I don't think he really knew what he was starting. In 1923, he was sent on a political assignment to help establish the Soviet government in Belarus, where he contracted typhoid fever and died. Ironically, this is probably one reason that I'm here today - an old Bolshevik with Jewish ancestry would have been a dead man in Stalin's time. His family would've done no better, but instead luckily faded into obscurity (and crushing poverty). Had he lived to see what his revolutionary idealism helped create, I think he would've been absolutely horrified.

A couple of my great-great (and great-) grandparents lived out in the countryside. Those that were primarily of Northern (Finnish, really) stock were indifferent and largely independent from the Tsarist regime. They were equally uninterested when Archangelsk, where they were living, was invaded during the brief Western intervention in the civil war. I think they just wanted to be left alone. Elsewhere, my peasant ancestors in the Novgorod region cautiously took up the Soviet cause in the civil war, but seemed to hold no particular bitterness against the Tsar. Their lives did, as I understand, improve after the revolution. Stalin's repressions didn't reach them. It was only WWII that was really devastating to their livelihood in the end.

Under both the Tsarist and the Soviet regime though, my family was really lucky. Some had close calls, both with the Tsarist authorities and with the NKVD. That's why even my living relatives ended up with extremely mixed backgrounds and different experiences. Some embraced communism and stood firmly for it (oddly, this applies equally to those that descended from peasants, and those that descended from the German nobles); others turned to dissent, whether progressive (Western-oriented, liberal) or conservative (Orthodox, nationalist). In the end, nobody in my family cashed in on anything - they all got burned about equally by the Tzarist, Soviet, and post-Soviet regimes, but luckily not too harshly. Everybody wound up a bit poor, a bit bitter, and really disappointed that things didn't work out as they hoped. Though I guess that's probably a common story for a lot of Russians!