SUBSIM Radio Room Forums



SUBSIM: The Web's #1 resource for all submarine & naval simulations since 1997

Go Back   SUBSIM Radio Room Forums > General > General Topics
Forget password? Reset here

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-17-18, 10:57 AM   #46
Mr Quatro
Navy Seal
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 6,772
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kptlt. Neuerburg View Post
The only thing that will happen is the talking heads will talk about we should do this or we should do that, the politicians will do the same, the lobbyist will lobby for what they think is best and in the end either nothing will get done or something will be done and considered right when it would be the worst thing to do because that's what governments do.
This is a true statement in the past ... these shootings could wind up influencing the next election more so than the Russians did in 2016.

Promises of more gun control could sink a politician on the other hand a pro gun stance could ruin that politicians chance.

One things for sure those students are going to need some answers when school starts up again.



This is Shamrock High School in Shamrock, Texas.
__________________
pla•teau noun
a relatively stable level, period,
or condition a level of attainment
or achievement

Lord help me get to the next plateau ..


Mr Quatro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-18, 07:34 PM   #47
Commander Wallace
Silent Hunter
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Under the sea in an Octupus garden in the shade
Posts: 4,997
Downloads: 360
Uploads: 0


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by August View Post
Well first of all it's the Bill of "Rights", not the Bill of "Needs" so what one person thinks we need is immaterial but the 2nd Amendment does mention "well regulated" which in 18th century parlance meant "proficient".

So let me ask you can you think of a better militia weapon than an AR-15? Is there another weapon that shares the same ammo, aiming system, cleaning kits, spare parts and accessories? Is there another weapon that would be better for familiarizing civilians with our countries basic battle rifle short of actually issuing them a real one like the Swiss?
Lots of great posts and analysis. I completely agree with you August on the right to bear arms / weapons and the reasons why. Armistead had mentioned full gun racks in the trucks of students and I remember the identical situation at at my somewhat rural High School as well. I further remember a few High School teachers and one time the principal outside in the parking lot discussing rifles, calibers and grain weight of the bullets in bringing down game. Not that it matters but we were High School football players and students, some of whom hunted and not connected with any sort of militia. There was never an incident then with weapons of any kind as there was a high degree of trust and respect between us students and the teachers and administration of the school. Our parents in those times taught us respect for people and life and insisted we act in accordance with those tenets. That's as it should be. You couldn't bring hunting weapons to school today as the times are way different.

Shootings such as been seen recently would have been completely unthinkable then.

Platapus also hit the nail on the head with his analysis. Platapus had stated the mind set of those who want to kill and not necessarily surviving the encounter. It's really not possible to be 100 % safe all the time. It would seem to make sense that an armed person and citizen makes a poor target. Most law enforcement and prosecutors point to illegal recreational drugs as fueling the increase in crime. People steal and rob to get money to buy drugs. This doesn't seem to be the case in this instance. This sick individual just wanted to kill people and boasted to that effect in social media.

As a number of forum members have already said, the answers in the coming weeks and months won't come easy. However, one possible solution is relatively easy to implement and that is a multiple layered security approach at the schools. Security checkpoints, metal detectors and staff trained to use them. Bullet proof glass in a receiving atrium for all visitors as well. Any visitors would have to be cleared in advance of the visiting day and go through the same screening process as the students in addition to submitting a reason for the visit and be approved and escorted. If a visitor / intruder poses a threat, then that threat could be isolated by means of remote locking doors, contained and if necessary, neutralized within the bulletproof atrium.

None of these provisions will keep the average person on the street safe and aren't meant to but would go a long way toward keeping our children in school safe from armed threats. These may well seem like extreme measures and I certainly would have thought so in High School when I attended. Then again, I never would have thought the carnage we have seen lately would have been possible either.

We owe our kids and their parents this much that they should be able to be safe while learning and protect the lives of their kids. It's clear that actions need to be taken in light of the times to insure our kids safety. While we may differ on what changes need to be implemented I think we can all agree increased security at our schools is a good idea. These changes may be cumbersome at first to enact but I think in the end, well worth it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skybird View Post
I think it is also a cultural and mentality thing, a different attitude towards violence and a certain fetishism for firearms in general. Especially Germans and Americans are probably the two most extreme poles on this. The truth I think must be found somewhere between the two.

And no, I do not think I represent the German mainstream attitude towards fiorearms, for German standards my stand on firearms and their private possession already counts far too lenient. For American standards I probably already count as a dictator in the eyes of the NRA at least.
You may well be right Sky however German history and that of the creation of the U.S differ. Our fore fathers wanted it's future citizens to be able to protect themselves from tyranny which some governments like to engage in. It's also true that outside casual observers from Germany, England or wherever may be able to see the trees through the forest so to speak and make useful suggestions as it never hurts to listen.

Last edited by Commander Wallace; 02-18-18 at 06:27 AM.
Commander Wallace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-18, 12:29 AM   #48
Kptlt. Neuerburg
Admiral
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Florida
Posts: 2,241
Downloads: 54
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Quatro View Post
This is a true statement in the past ... these shootings could wind up influencing the next election more so than the Russians did in 2016.

Promises of more gun control could sink a politician on the other hand a pro gun stance could ruin that politicians chance.

One things for sure those students are going to need some answers when school starts up again.
Indeed, the topic of gun control is very much a double edged sword in this country even more so once you get into the realm of politics.

Personally what I think is the main problem on the topic of gun control is what people define "gun control" as. Some are terrified that the government will try to take away their guns, others say it's to ban certain types of firearms such as the AR-15. To me what gun control is, is preventing people like criminals, gang members, and so on from getting firearms in the first place, I also think banning the sale of so called "conversion kits" which can make a semi-auto AR-15 into a fully automatic weapon would be smart. It's really friggin' stupid that conversion kits are only considered illegal AFTER the part(s) have been added to the rifle!


I'd go for an approach like we to do getting a drivers license.

1. The General Purpose License
The types of firearms the "GP" License covers are as follows.
Sporting Rifles
Hunting Rifles
Shotguns
Pistols

These licenses would be valid for 4 years and can be used in all states.
You have to be 21 Years Old to apply for this license, exceptions would be maybe for those 18 years or older providing the applicant has taken a firearms safety course from a certified instructor.

2. The Collectors License
The types of firearms covered by the Collectors License are as follows.
Black Powder Muzzle Loaders (Muskets, Pistol and Rifles)
Bolt Action Rifles WW1- Present Day (Including Sniper Rifles)
Semi- Auto Rifles WW2-Present Day
Assault Rifles
SMGs
HMGs (Heavy Machine Guns) Only for a serious collector!

You must be 21 years or older to apply for this license and is valid in all states.
You must have a certification from a firearms safety course to apply.
This license would be valid for 2 years.
If you have a criminal history your application will have to be reviewed by state and local law enforcement before the license is issued or denied. (Applies to both licenses)
The prices of the two licenses will be dependent on the state issuing the license.
You can have multiple guns under one license as long as they fall within the categories that are listed.
Any rifle that has been modified for use in sports shooting or hunting would need to be reviewed before a license was issued.

Any person or persons attempting to obtain these license(s) using false information will be subject to a $500 - $2,000 dollar fine and a maximum 15 years in prison and will not be able to apply for either license for 10 years after serving the prison sentence.
__________________
"When you're born into this world, you're given a ticket to the freak show. If you're born in America you get a front row seat." - George Carlin
Kptlt. Neuerburg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-18, 12:44 AM   #49
Sean C
Grey Wolf
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 900
Downloads: 12
Uploads: 2


Default

I think the possibility of becoming [in]famous for committing these heinous acts plays no minor role in the motivation of these maniacs. After all, you could get your face on the cover of Rolling Stone. Then, people might read your manifesto and everyone will know why you were angry. You'll finally be heard.

If it were up to me, they would all be referred to only as "some loser" by the media* - their real names blotted from memory, along with everything else about them. They would only be mentioned briefly enough to point out that they were too cowardly to deal with life's problems like a normal person. The rest of the time would be devoted to remembering the victims and helping the survivors.

*Or some other not-so-nice moniker to that effect.
Sean C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-18, 02:31 AM   #50
Buddahaid
Shark above Space Chicken
 
Buddahaid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,526
Downloads: 160
Uploads: 0


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kptlt. Neuerburg View Post
Indeed, the topic of gun control is very much a double edged sword in this country even more so once you get into the realm of politics.

Personally what I think is the main problem on the topic of gun control is.....
There are millions of guns that are under that radar.
__________________
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/4962/oeBHq3.jpg
"However vast the darkness, we must provide our own light."
Stanley Kubrick

"Tomorrow belongs to those who can hear it coming."
David Bowie
Buddahaid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-18, 06:35 AM   #51
Jimbuna
Chief of the Boat
 
Jimbuna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: 250 metres below the surface
Posts: 180,310
Downloads: 63
Uploads: 13


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Commander Wallace View Post
Lots of great posts and analysis. I completely agree with you August on the right to bear arms / weapons and the reasons why. Armistead had mentioned full gun racks in the trucks of students and I remember the identical situation at at my somewhat rural High School as well. I further remember a few High School teachers and one time the principal outside in the parking lot discussing rifles, calibers and grain weight of the bullets in bringing down game. Not that it matters but we were High School football players and students, some of whom hunted and not connected with any sort of militia. There was never an incident then with weapons of any kind as there was a high degree of trust and respect between us students and the teachers and administration of the school. Our parents in those times taught us respect for people and life and insisted we act in accordance with those tenets. That's as it should be. You couldn't bring hunting weapons to school today as the times are way different.

Shootings such as been seen recently would have been completely unthinkable then.

Platapus also hit the nail on the head with his analysis. Platapus had stated the mind set of those who want to kill and not necessarily surviving the encounter. It's really not possible to be 100 % safe all the time. It would seem to make sense that an armed person and citizen makes a poor target. Most law enforcement and prosecutors point to illegal recreational drugs as fueling the increase in crime. People steal and rob to get money to buy drugs. This doesn't seem to be the case in this instance. This sick individual just wanted to kill people and boasted to that effect in social media.

As a number of forum members have already said, the answers in the coming weeks and months won't come easy. However, one possible solution is relatively easy to implement and that is a multiple layered security approach at the schools. Security checkpoints, metal detectors and staff trained to use them. Bullet proof glass in a receiving atrium for all visitors as well. Any visitors would have to be cleared in advance of the visiting day and go through the same screening process as the students in addition to submitting a reason for the visit and be approved and escorted. If a visitor / intruder poses a threat, then that threat could be isolated by means of remote locking doors, contained and if necessary, neutralized within the bulletproof atrium.

None of these provisions will keep the average person on the street safe and aren't meant to but would go a long way toward keeping our children in school safe from armed threats. These may well seem like extreme measures and I certainly would have thought so in High School when I attended. Then again, I never would have thought the carnage we have seen lately would have been possible either.

We owe our kids and their parents this much that they should be able to be safe while learning and protect the lives of their kids. It's clear that actions need to be taken in light of the times to insure our kids safety. While we may differ on what changes need to be implemented I think we can all agree increased security at our schools is a good idea. These changes may be cumbersome at first to enact but I think in the end, well worth it.



You may well be right Sky however German history and that of the creation of the U.S differ. Our fore fathers wanted it's future citizens to be able to protect themselves from tyranny which some governments like to engage in. It's also true that outside casual observers from Germany, England or wherever may be able to see the trees through the forest so to speak and make useful suggestions as it never hurts to listen.
Excellent post IMHO
__________________
Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something.
Oh my God, not again!!


GWX3.0 Download Page - Donation/instant access to GWX (Help SubSim)
Jimbuna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-18, 07:40 AM   #52
Kptlt. Neuerburg
Admiral
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Florida
Posts: 2,241
Downloads: 54
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddahaid View Post
There are millions of guns that are under that radar.
True, but this is just an idea not a complete solution. I doubt that there will be a solution to this issue as long as people stay entrenched in their ideals and say that the other side is wrong rather then everyone coming together to try to solve it.
__________________
"When you're born into this world, you're given a ticket to the freak show. If you're born in America you get a front row seat." - George Carlin
Kptlt. Neuerburg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-18, 08:50 AM   #53
Dowly
Lucky Jack
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Finland
Posts: 25,004
Downloads: 32
Uploads: 0


Default





Dowly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-18, 09:26 AM   #54
Delgard
Skipper
 
Delgard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: AZ & DC
Posts: 487
Downloads: 48
Uploads: 0
Default

It is the culture, which is good or bad for whatever society it permeates. Culture is very hard to change, especially with the expansive social media, or connectivity, that has come along. But, even that has good attributes in comparison to what has occurred.

It starts with the base of a person's development and continues from there. Family values, community values, and on up to the social fabric of the overall society.

I guess I can speak of values, but I should listen, too. Looking, understanding, and implementing such values is a slow and difficult change to the society. But, it is important for any society to adjust itself in light of the myriad of challenges to what it feels are the best cultural values.

It is akin to parenting only on a grand and inclusive scale. Each adult, exemplifying strong values for society's good. I used to hear about the "Golden Rule", and maybe I am out of touch or too cynical to see it all around me, but I have not heard it mentioned in a long time.

I accept that my parents did the best that they could with what they had. I think I should do the same. I have to learn, understand, and demonstrate the values that I want my, now grandkids, to see and learn from.

As to the event(s) being discussed, I understand the challenges of the school and the FBI. The parenting part, I have not read enough about in the news press. I think that should be talked about more.
Delgard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-18, 11:34 AM   #55
Dowly
Lucky Jack
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Finland
Posts: 25,004
Downloads: 32
Uploads: 0


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by August View Post
Maybe if the FBI leadership spent less time trying to overturn elections and more time doing their job we would have less of these terrible incidents.
How does Mueller's probe impact on the rest of the FBI for doing their jobs?

Good try to blame the Russian probe on 17 dead kids. Shame on you.
Dowly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-18, 12:13 PM   #56
u crank
Old enough to know better
 
u crank's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Prince Edward Island
Posts: 11,551
Downloads: 136
Uploads: 0


Default

Quote:
Pressure is mounting on the FBI director to resign after his agency admitted it failed to investigate a warning that the man accused of killing 17 people at a Florida high school possessed a gun and the desire to kill.
Quote:
Federal Bureau of Investigation said in a statement that a person described as someone close to accused gunman Nikolas Cruz, 19, called an FBI tip line on Jan. 5, weeks before the shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, to report concerns about him.

"The caller provided information about Cruz's gun ownership, desire to kill people, erratic behaviour, and disturbing social media posts, as well as the potential of him conducting a school shooting," it said.

That information should have been forwarded to the FBI's Miami field office for further investigation, but "we have determined that these protocols were not followed", it said.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/17/fbi-...-shooting.html
__________________

“Two possibilities exist: either we are alone in the Universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying.”

― Arthur C. Clarke




u crank is online   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-18, 12:25 PM   #57
Mr Quatro
Navy Seal
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 6,772
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0


Default

I hope the Federal Bureau of Investigation gets their luster (the state or quality of shining by reflecting light; glitter, sparkle, sheen) back ...
they deserve a better report than the one they are getting.

Employees 35,104[1] (October 31, 2014)
Annual budget 8.7 billion USD (FY 2016)[2]
__________________
pla•teau noun
a relatively stable level, period,
or condition a level of attainment
or achievement

Lord help me get to the next plateau ..


Mr Quatro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-18, 05:31 PM   #58
Sean C
Grey Wolf
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 900
Downloads: 12
Uploads: 2


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dowly View Post
Good try to blame the Russian probe on 17 dead kids. Shame on you.
I think you meant "blame the death of 17 people on the Russia probe."

...At least I hope that's what you meant.
Sean C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-18, 06:45 PM   #59
August
Wayfaring Stranger
 
August's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 22,630
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dowly View Post
How does Mueller's probe impact on the rest of the FBI for doing their jobs?
Well I was talking about the Steele dossier, not the Mueller probe but the impact comes from the failure of the FBI leadership to not spend enough time and effort making sure that nuts like this don't slip through the cracks.

Quote:
Good try to blame the Russian probe on 17 dead kids. Shame on you.
It was 15 kids and 2 adults Dowly, so shame on you for exaggerating their deaths just to improve your internet forum argument, but good try.
August is online   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-18, 06:49 PM   #60
August
Wayfaring Stranger
 
August's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 22,630
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathaniel B. View Post
I think you meant "blame the death of 17 people on the Russia probe."

...At least I hope that's what you meant.
Yeah that's probably what he meant. He hates my guts so he probably dashed it off in anger and didn't take his time to check it first.
August is online   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:38 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 1995- 2024 Subsim®
"Subsim" is a registered trademark, all rights reserved.