Anyone familiar with Luftwaffe (WW2) Aircraft ID codes?

[Aktungbby]

Originally Posted by Commander Wallace

Just learned a lot about aircraft information and codes that I didn't know, I didn't know.

U need to expand on that concept Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld:

because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns — the ones we don't know we don't know. And if one looks throughout the history of our country and other free countries, it is the latter category that tend to be the difficult ones.The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, or vice versa.

In fact, the leading cause of death in aerial combat is: not knowing what u don't know: ie "I didn't know that aßhole was on my six...."

[Von Due]

Originally Posted by Aktungbby

"I didn't know that aßhole was on my six...."

And if you thought bandits at 6 o'clock meant there was time for tea and bisquits before the shooting then you probably wouldn't know how to operate a sling shot let alone a machine gun and bomb sights were right out of the question, and you were probably put inside an aircraft by mistake.


I still have no idea how the F plane could be the number 7 plane unless the Germans had extra letters in between the A and F. Either the page linked above made a typo or something is going on that hasn't been accounted for yet.

Would be something to look into too, the 800th, 801st and 803rd squadrons on Ark Royal. The tiny glimpse I got suggested that the squadrons' markings would differ in format and not only in letters and numbers.

[Aktungbby]

Originally Posted by Von Due

And if you thought bandits at 6 o'clock meant there was time for tea and bisquits before the shooting then you probably wouldn't know how to operate a sling shot let alone a machine gun and bomb sights were right out of the question, and you were probably put inside an aircraft by mistake.

The master himself, actually a handpicked protégé of Boelke and his timeless 'Dicta', #3 ''Open fire only at close range, and then only when the opponent is squarely in your sights''; #5: "In any type of attack, it is essential to assail your opponent from behind" said it best:

Originally Posted by Von Richthofen

"The Murder of a man is still murder, even in wartime" (Best done 'Hunning" out of the sun or on the enemy's six) and "The quality of the box (aircraft?) matters little. Success depends on the man who sits in it." "Everything in the air that is beneath me, especially if it is a one seater...is lost, for it cannot shoot to the rear" “I never get into an aircraft for fun,” Manfred von Richthofen once wrote. “I aim first for the head of the pilot, or rather at the head of the observer, if there is one.” It was a maxim that the German aviator followed with ruthless precision. Rather than engaging in airborne acrobatics or risky dogfights, he preferred to patiently stalk his enemies, swoop down from high altitude and then blast them out of the sky with pinpoint bursts of machine gun fire. “There is no art in shooting down an aeroplane,” “The thing is done by the personality or by the fighting determination of the airman.”

IMHO heads can only be hit up close from the six o'clock position-his record speaks for itself. His classic victory against ACE Lanoe Hawker (victory#11) a case in point:

Hawker chose his target. As luck would have it, it was Richthofen’s Albatros D.II. He dove at the Albatros from behind, getting off a five-round burst that missed when Richthofen cut sharply left. Hawker followed him into the turn. The equally matched pilots began a frantic, spinning chase as each tried to outturn the other and maneuver into position for a clear shot. Their tight circle, less than 300 feet in diameter, slowly descended from an altitude of almost 10,000 feet to nearly treetop level.
Hawker was now at a disadvantage. Dangerously low on the German side of the lines, he knew he would be hit from the ground or forced to land if he did not end the battle quickly. A succession of loops, which Richthofen’s less-creative fly style could not match, placed Hawker in a position to get off another burst that came close, but missed the Baron’s plane. Losing his chance, Hawker turned and bolted for his side of the lines with Richthofen in pursuit.
With both the Baron and the ground closing in on him,Hawker zigzagged at high speed to stay out of the line of fire. He was nearly saved when Richthofen’s first burst jammed his gun. The jam quickly cleared, however, and with his second burst Richthofen shot Hawker through the back of the head. His DH-2 pitched up and then nosed into the ground, just 50 yards short of the German front-line trenches.

The 'box' didn't matter; persistence, direct tactics and a close shot to the head from the six did...

[Von Due]

Indeed the 6 o'clock was the preferred position for the reason mentioned there. Notable exception was against allied WW2 bomber formations where the German fighter pilots were forced to continuously re-evaluate their tactics and much heated disagreement was had over how to tackle the formations. Forward fireing fighters was one thing but 150-300 rear turrets, ball turrets and top turrets, 300-600 waist gunners, that was something different and something that scared even the most hardened veteran witless.If a fighter pilot returned to base without the need to change his underwear, then he had avoided the fight.

Fortunately for the allied, the Germans never jumped on the self-relying, heavily defended bomber formation bandwagon, instead they relied on tieing up their own fighters in escort missions to escort sub par Ju-87s and hopelessly outmatched 111's (against modern fighters that was), with strict orders to the pilots not to break off to engage enemies at a distance, before giving counter orders, before counter the counter orders then.... *sigh* they made a mess of it and the allied rejoyced. Göring in particular was the best thing that happened to the alllied in that respect. One has to wonder if he was secretly on their payroll

Anyway, to take on a German bomber formation was less harrowing due to their lack of protection, relatively speaking (even a Stuka had a rearwards pea shooter but the He-111's bathtub meant the gunner had to get up, turn around, lay down again, find aim only to find the target gone by then and that was only after they installed more than a single down/rearward pea shooter). To take on a 3 ship flight of 111's, even in a Skua, meant you had the odds on your side and it was pretty much a rock around the clock fight. A 109 against 3 B-17s not so much.

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by Von Due

I still have no idea how the F plane could be the number 7 plane unless the Germans had extra letters in between the A and F. Either the page linked above made a typo or something is going on that hasn't been accounted for yet.

Phew.. that needed some digging, but I think I have an answer for you.

I think the example given in your second link on the first post is slightly flawed, and as such I think it is a simple typo.

The book Kampfflieger- Bombers of the Luftwaffe 1933-1940, Volume 1 explains the early marking system as such (using the example from your link):

33 + F26
3 = Luftkreiskommando III (Regional Air Command, KG253 did indeed belong to Luftkreiskommando III)
3 = Third Geschwader formed under LK III. The book lists only 2 KGs under LK III, but the one above KG 253 uses the number 32, so this makes sense.

The rest, with the exception of the probable typo with F, is correct on the site.


Also, another thing I learned from the book is how the KG numbering worked (at least in the early days). For example, KG 253:
2 = Second (bomber unit?) formed under Luftkreiskommando III.
5 = Class of aircraft; Heavy bomber
3 = Luftkreiskommando III

The other KG listed is 153, so the above makes sense.

The things you learn...

[Von Due]

Wow! Massive thanks to you, Dowly, for that fantastic post!

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by Von Due

Wow! Massive thanks to you, Dowly, for that fantastic post!

No problemo. It is certainly a fascinating subject.

[Von Due]

Finally another thing here makes sense. The first sources I came across said K.G.4 borrowed aircrafts (squadrons?) from 253 which isn't unheard of but then I came across a source that stated that K.G. 253's name was "General Wever" which also was the name given to K.G.4. That was peculiar, that 2 different wings got the same name. A bit of google "translate" (good grief that thing can be funny at times) later, it turns out that there was no borrowing.

K.G. 253 was renamed entirely to K.G. 4. The name General Wever simply carried over since it was the same unit + extensions with a new designation.

[Dowly]

Yep, after the Luftflotte-system replaced the Luftkreis-system, KG 253 was renamed to KG 4 and placed in Luftflotte 1.

To know which Luftflotte a KG belonged to:
KG 1-25 = Luftflotte 1
KG 26-50 = Luftflotte 2
KG 51-75 = Luftflotte 3
KG 76-99 = Luftflotte 4

[Von Due]

I'm wondering. I was reading a bit on LF 5 and LF 6 and it appeared that at least 1 group or a squadron from K.G. 4 appeared under command of one of these. I am therefor speculating that above K.G. level, the "luftflotte"s would move the KGs around from one LF to another per operational demand, and even individual groups and squadrons. I have no evidence of this, only indications.

EDIT. AktungBBY's post (#18) links to a page that states the German airforce was under LF 5 from mid August 1940, and that under LF 5 was K.G. 26 which to my recollection was based further north around Trondheim (could be wrong as they could very well have used airfields acattered around elsewhere). The same page mentions K.G.4 but not under LF 5 specifically.

[Dowly]

Yup, squadrons, groups and KGs were moved around as needed.

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/...hwader/KG4.htm

The third table shows a good example with II./KG 4 being based in Romania, but its 4. Squadron was in Sicily and 5. Squadron in Baghdad. (If I read that correctly)

[Von Due]

Managed to find some more info, this time on the crew of the 2 Skuas.

A-7A: Pilot: Hugh Peter Bramwell (801 Sqd. leader), radio/gunner: James W. Collett.
A-7C: Pilot: William Martin (Martyn in other source, RCAF), radio/gunner: Reginald Davies.

Also flying along was A-7B: Pilot: F.B. Wigginton, radio/gunner: E. Adlam.

It's been many years and I was very young then, but from what I now have gathered, it must have been Davies and Collett who came here to meet the German crew, and the ones I met.

A curious detail: The 3 survivors, Hölcher, Gumbrecht and Stoltz were captured by Norwegian forces, and handed over to the British. The ship that took them to England, before they were sent to Canada, was the very same ship that had damaged CN: HMS Manchester. A bit of irony there.

[Eichhörnchen]

It's a huge, complex subject, Luftwaffe markings, as is/was their camouflage

[Von Due]

Originally Posted by Eichhörnchen

It's a huge, complex subject, Luftwaffe markings, as is/was their camouflage

I wish I could find it now, this article in a war time German newspaper describing how low the Russians were, how low they would go tossing all chivalery out the window for dirty tricks: The untrustworthy bastards would paint their tanks WHITE in the winter! Just imagine! As opposed, I suppose, to the bright orange tanks of the Germans.

Looking into the Skua ID, again a different system (not surprisingly) but what it seems to me right now is:
The ID would follow the carrier, so the carrier would in this respect have the same role as the German K.G. where the letter would denote which carrier the squadron would operate from. The 801st operated from Ark Royal and the letter code for that carrier was A. For fighters, the numbers 6 or 7 was used (either, I assume, depending on type of aircraft so Skuas would be 7, or its role attached to the carrier or, more likely, if there were more than 1 fighter squadron attached). Last came the individual plane in the squadron, each squadron consisting of 3 aircrafts unlike land based squadrons.

A7-A would then spell out
A: Ark Royal
7: Fighter (2nd fighter squadron??)
A Squadron leader, B and C wingmen.

Sometimes though, the carrier designation was omitted when there was only 1 carrier in question which was often the case.

Looks like I guessed partially right on the 7. At the time, 800th squadron was A6, 801st was A7, and 803rd was at some point A8 before being redesignated S6. There is a lot of conflicting info though so nothing here is absolutely certain other than 801st at the time was designated A7. Even the number of planes in a squadron seems uncertain, some sources state 3, others point out the 803rd had at least 7 aircrafts, more likely more and a multiple of 3.

[Von Due]

Just as a prelude to the events and copy paste from an email I sent:

About Holcher, Stock and Stolz: They took part in the Polish campaign flying with a different pilot, Gotthold Klenk. They flew the 5J+EN from Oels near Breslau to attack the airfield at Lemberg (Lwow) on Sept 1. 1939, at 10.00 hours. The plane was damaged by anti aircraft fire and forced to an emergency landing at 13.30 hours. There were no casualties. 5J+EN was completely destroyed afterwards by the crew before they had to flee. They were all taken prisoners but did return to K.G.4 on, or shortly after, October 3. 1939

Here too were they in II/KG4. Shot down within the first hours of the war. Shot down about 3 weeks after being sent to Norway. Someone forgot his lucky charm or someone on the ground had a containerload of lucky charms.