Germany's new frigate F125 weak in defences, unfit for sea.

[Skybird]

http://archive.is/BOlrf

Nobody talks of the Airbus A400M anymore. None of the remaining 4 Uboats is operational, since many months. Air transports repeatedly brake down even when transporting the defence ministress to a diplomatic visit. Major shares of the tank and helcopter fleet (if one dares to call those dwarf numbers a "fleet") are nonoperational. Berlin Airport is 10 years behind schedule, unclear whether it will ever opened at all or will be scrapped. Major train station in Stuttgart also many years behind schedule. Delivery of new infantry fighting vehicles delayed due to concerns its atmospshere could harm amniotic fluid of pregnant female - ehem, soldiers. German drones don't fly, helicopters loose rotorblades, and repairs and fixes mean to change numbers in printed papers so to cover the techncial deficits that were found during tests before. Over half of the volunteer recruits, of which there are too few, leave entry trainiggn before week 6.

The Bundeswehr as a leading force in Easteurope or the Baltic?

Forget it. And very quickly. These armed forces are a bad joke. Their status is symptomatic for the structural decline of Germany in general, its loss of key competences and abilities, both in the technical and adminstrative field. Nobody needs to be worried of the Bundeswehr as a military opponent. Especially not the Russians.

A Kindergarten.

Elections are ago since - how many months now? And still the old government is in power. And is aiming at staying in power in a renewal of this great coalition that was voted out and lost so many voters. Merkel said of so many of her opinion pieces that they are "without alternative", she now seems to think that includes herself personally as well. Seems people cannot even vote to get rid of these people anymore. They stick with you, like some super-glue.

”There’s a whole generation of German engineers who haven’t worked on a major defense project,” said Mr. Mölling, the defense expert. “It’s not that they lost this skill; they never learned it.”
(...)
Kiel-based naval engineer Lothar Dannenberg, who wasn’t involved directly in the frigate project, blamed its failures largely on what he said was the incompetence of the procurement office. “We were left shaking our heads,” he said.

Its symptomatic for whole Germany, on every level.

And still there is this belief, this unspoken expectation that the world just cant wait to follow German moral examples.

How did I came to this?
https://translate.google.de/translat...%2F&edit-text=

https://unbesorgt.de/die-bundeswehr-...armee-zu-sein/

[Catfish]

We are not alone Skybird.. usually I would not quote the "Sun" for various reasons, but this is written by Jeremy Clarkson, of Top Gear fame

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/392215...otally-flawed/

"My biggest worry, though, is that both these enormous vessels — they’re as long as three football pitches — are operated by the Ministry of Defence."

Well Jeremy Clarkson can make fun of it in this typical english vein, and it's positively hilarious, but he's still concerned and after all loves these ships. And the carriers are not as flawed as the german frigates. The latter is of course a completely german and different problem.. along with german military air transport, helicopters a.s.o.


Caution – satire: When Poland or better Kacinsky and his PIS party now wants to see Germany in court (for reasons of.. WW2?), some would probably have the idea to invade once more and more or less elegantly circumvent this invitation..
But fear not, surely not with our current Bundeswehr

[Jimbuna]

Tis truly worrying to learn of the above and previously wondered if anyone was in the same state as that of a steadily declining UK military capability.

Obviously there is at least one in a worse state then.

Does this mean the French will be the sole 'Superpower' in Europe after Brexit then?

[Catfish]

^ i think England/UK is indeed better off than Germany, never seen so much going wrong like in the last two years here. The RN subs will be maintained and repaired soon again, while the Airbus and helicopter disaster did not even produce a reliable type.

Teething problems, well.. international collaboration is good, but if one of the manufacturers fails to deliver, the whole project is toast. Could it be those international military company joint ventures are more about making money?

On the other hand, it is about strategical planning, and you cannot accuse hardware companies only carrying out changing and improvement orders. The frigate concept and orders to producing companies have changed so often to adapt to "new" conditions and theories, that the outcome does not resemble anything thought of initially.
A military piece of hardware that is designed to suit all situations and conditions, is basically weak and useless in all of them.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Catfish

A military piece of hardware that is designed to suit all situations and conditions, is basically weak and useless in all of them.

Maybe not necessarily, but the biggest two problems are political dilettantism interfering with the procurement by the defence ministry and too many primaballerina officers taking it as important to add their mustard to the meal as well, and then a totally misled perception and understanding of the role of military forces. These frigates were depleted of solid air defences and all anti-submarine capability because it was weighted as more important that they should serve in migrant-saving humanitarian efforts or releasing small infantry units during landings in the Baltics Understanding that a warship's purpose is to fight a battle, destroy opponents and survive in a wartime envrionment, was only an obstacle that therefore was scratched off the list.

The example of the also hopelessly misled A400M teaches anoher problem as well: that tiem and again chnages and altered purpose defintions get fed in by politics, exopecting the industry to nevertheless adapoting to these ever changing lists of wishes in zero time, and of course, all new and additional work done for free. This messes up the manufacturing process significantly. And at the end you get a half-baked solution that wants to be a many different things, but cannot master any of these any good, as you just said.

The Bundesmarine should have charted their frigates from Thomas Cook Travelling, I think. Juist a little bit of grey paint, and Germany could have boasted with owning the biggest frigates in the world, ever. Far more space and comfort for those humanitarian mission(i)s(ings).

As I often said: Germans mistake their armed forces with the THW (Federal Agency for Technical Relief).

[em2nought]

We'd give you some Littoral ships if it would help, so named because the best use for them is as "little" coral reefs.

[mapuc]

But why ?

It made me remember a documentary they showed on Swedish TV many years ago

It was about factories, ordinary and military during Communism in Soviet.

Can't remember all of it

Only that bribery was very common.

Markus

[STEED]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Does this mean the French will be the sole 'Superpower' in Europe after Brexit then?

WHAT!

NNNNNOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

[Hawk66]

@Skybird, this article which you refereed in the top tells not the full or true story.

It makes no sense to compare the F125 to F122...it's the same as comparing apples to bananas. The F125 was designed for supporting of peace-keeping missions (post cold war operations) and not for convoy duty or Baltic sea fighting. And the remark that terrorists are capable to flood the AA defenses, I guess that's rather ridiculous (do terrorists now run major warships ??)

You could argue that the F125 by itself is not the right choice for the German Navy now and I would agree to that. As well you could argue that the German Navy gets not enough money. I'd agree to that. But not the politicians are only to blame but also the society, which has simply no interest in security affairs.

And that defense or complex projects are delayed or do not full their specs...this is now unfortunately common (see only the F-35 as an example)..

[ikalugin]

And the remark that terrorists are capable to flood the AA defenses, I guess that's rather ridiculous (do terrorists now run major warships ??)

They do run land based AShM batteries nowadays (ie Yemen) and other such heavy weapons.

In general I don't see how a non state actor in a civil war would not have potential access to AShMs nowadays, as both those are common in the inventories of weak states and terrorists (rebels?) tend to gain access to said inventories during civil wars.

[Hawk66]

The F125 have 2x21 RAM onboard...I guess that's sufficient...if there's a high AA threat, then it would have escorts and probably it would never travel alone (The German navy usually always operate only with NATO/UN vessels on real missions)

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Hawk66

@Skybird, this article which you refereed in the top tells not the full or true story.

It makes no sense to compare the F125 to F122...it's the same as comparing apples to bananas. The F125 was designed for supporting of peace-keeping missions (post cold war operations) and not for convoy duty or Baltic sea fighting. And the remark that terrorists are capable to flood the AA defenses, I guess that's rather ridiculous (do terrorists now run major warships ??)

You could argue that the F125 by itself is not the right choice for the German Navy now and I would agree to that. As well you could argue that the German Navy gets not enough money. I'd agree to that. But not the politicians are only to blame but also the society, which has simply no interest in security affairs.

And that defense or complex projects are delayed or do not full their specs...this is now unfortunately common (see only the F-35 as an example)..

The article compares the wepaon systems on both classes in numbers, in the tables. And I said indeed that the F125 was designed to shuttle some minor troop contingents around for amphibious landings (we have so big amphibious formation in the Bundeswehr, you know), which can also be taken the other way around. The German Navy is in deseprate undersupply of ships that actually are operational, yet we send them on internationla missions far beyond Gwermany'S normal reach, to scan for pirates here, to show a flag there. A frigate that in the end should fill a deserate gap in the Navy's ordinary military tasks, must be able to actually deliver on tasks that one woudl asscooate with that. Its an illustration of the lack of realistic strategic visions in Germany, as the article says, or the German article with translation I linked at the end. Germany is misled on what it navy shoulkd be capaböe to do. We now get a firgate that may be able to take on pirate skiffs ofshore Somalia, nice. Is that why our small navy spends money on building frigates? While all nATO and Germany hvae a desperate lack of Anti-Submarine capabilities now,l bot on sea and from air? A frigate that has weak air defences - in our time? A frigate that will be used in case of a major rumble with a certain major big neighbour more eastward? The Russians equip their old missiles cruisers with some new 6 Mach supermissile to wreck carrier groups and major warships, and we care about pirates skiffs at Somalia?

We have anothr scandal in the navy as well, that is the new corvette, which also is a quickshot from the hop, hopelessly overpriced, and according to one retieed navy officer that was on TV some months ago where it was civered, "over 12 years behind current technology". Thes eunits have big technical problems as well.

Germany wants that wrong things, and these immediately and for unrealistic expectations. Its a fair weather navy, and incompetent, cueless political leadership. It can only become worse. Already now all the internaitonal missions Germany has embarked on have abslutely overstretched the German armed forces due to their limited size and very low technical readiness level. In Mali, the dman Tiger helicpter was sent although temps there are in ecess of its defined operational temperate environments. A lack of supplis and eroded material led to one helicopter loosing its rotor blades in fight, not the rotorhead, but the blades. Both pilots got killed. When was the last time you heard that a helicopter lost its rotor blades? And the other Tiger there which was technically unfit as well by the printed tables: after the accident they rewrote the tables and now say the machine is allowed to fly in these temperatures. Technical changes as far as the media said, were not made. Military pilots now will lease helicopters from the German ADAC cardriver association, because the Bundeswehr has not sufficient operational helicopters for training.

The Bundeswehr is a paper tiger. But useful in case of the river Oder flooding the land again. Do not compare it with the mentality in French or British forces.

You are right, Hawk, Germans, and many continetal Europeans as well, simply do even lack the understandign why they should even wish to be able to defend themselves. A world in which sombody means as harm, has become unimaginable for us. I mean, the world is just waiting to follow our splendid, formidable, moral examples, eh, everybody wants to be so fantastic and civilizationally superior like we are?

Germany leads the world! You want it!

At the same time we fail more and more to even just maintain our own house and everyday life inside Germany. And we applaude if we find a new way to even add to our huge mountain of self-made problems. On the domestic level there are so many follies going on that I could write a book about it.