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Old 10-27-2017, 04:51 AM   #1
CaptainCruise
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Default Chinese sub gets inside US Fleet

I came across this story while looking up torpedo information. Amazing that this could happen. The story is 10 years old so you may remember it when it happened. I just thought some of you would find it interesting:


The uninvited guest: Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced

By Matthew Hickly, Daily Mail, 10 November 2007

<the article source>
When the U.S. Navy deploys a battle fleet on exercises, it takes the security of its aircraft carriers very seriously indeed.
At least a dozen warships provide a physical guard while the technical wizardry of the world's only military superpower offers an invisible shield to detect and deter any intruders.
That is the theory. Or, rather, was the theory.


Uninvited guest: A Chinese Song Class submarine, like the one that sufaced by the U.S.S. Kitty Hawk
American military chiefs have been left dumbstruck by an undetected Chinese submarine popping up at the heart of a recent Pacific exercise and close to the vast U.S.S. Kitty Hawk—a 1,000ft supercarrier with 4,500 personnel on board.

By the time it surfaced the 160ft Song Class diesel-electric attack submarine is understood to have sailed within viable range for launching torpedoes or missiles at the carrier.

According to senior Nato officials the incident caused consternation in the U.S. Navy.

The Americans had no idea China's fast-growing submarine fleet had reached such a level of sophistication, or that it posed such a threat.
One Nato figure said the effect was “as big a shock as the Russians launching Sputnik”̬a reference to the Soviet Union's first orbiting satellite in 1957 which marked the start of the space age.

The incident, which took place in the ocean between southern Japan and Taiwan, is a major embarrassment for the Pentagon.

The lone Chinese vessel slipped past at least a dozen other American warships which were supposed to protect the carrier from hostile aircraft or submarines.

And the rest of the costly defensive screen, which usually includes at least two U.S. submarines, was also apparently unable to detect it.

According to the Nato source, the encounter has forced a serious re-think of American and Nato naval strategy as commanders reconsider the level of threat from potentially hostile Chinese submarines.

It also led to tense diplomatic exchanges, with shaken American diplomats demanding to know why the submarine was “shadowing*#21; the U.S. fleet while Beijing pleaded ignorance and dismissed the affair as coincidence.

Analysts believe Beijing was sending a message to America and the West demonstrating its rapidly-growing military capability to threaten foreign powers which try to interfere in its “backyard”.

The People's Liberation Army Navy's submarine fleet includes at least two nuclear-missile launching vessels. Its 13 Song Class submarines are extremely quiet and difficult to detect when running on electric motors.

Commodore Stephen Saunders, editor of Jane's Fighting Ships, and a former Royal Navy anti-submarine specialist, said the U.S. had paid relatively little attention to this form of warfare since the end of the Cold War. He said: “It was certainly a wake-up call for the Americans.
“It would tie in with what we see the Chinese trying to do, which appears to be to deter the Americans from interfering or operating in their backyard, particularly in relation to Taiwan.”

In January China carried a successful missile test, shooting down a satellite in orbit for the first time.
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Old 10-27-2017, 05:19 AM   #2
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Daily mail is not the most reliable source.
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Old 10-27-2017, 06:55 AM   #3
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^ Still the Chinese were not the first who achieved this, if the story is true. Swedish, German and Dutch boats scored against carrier battle groups as well. And not just in exercises, but random meetings (where it should be demanded a carrier group were able to protect itself).

A carrier is a weapon to be used against an inferior enemy these days. Against an enemy of equal military capabilities at sea or on the air, a carrier is just a floating target. Relying on them today in projections about the future war compares to those admirals who in WWII still believed in battleships. The underlying mistake is to assume the next war will be waged by the ways and methods by which the last war was won.

Subs are superior against carriers. Autonomous drones, both under sea and in the air, are the future. The US is breeding dinosaurs when investing into new carriers. They are doomed to go extinct. The concept is an overaged waste of money considering military scenarios against enemies who operate on same eye level.

Chinese subs must not even strike themselves, its enough if they serve as ears - to provide intel for those refurbished ICBMs the Chinese have rebuild as carrier-killers.

Considering the short legs of the F35, its hard too believe how the Navy would be able to maintain carrier presence at a useful range to China without loosing carriers. Extending their legs by the use of tankers, means to expose the logistical basis for supplying a strike force in mid-air, also it could givce away attack vectors and thus neutralise the not really cheap-to-have advantage of stealthed fighterbombers. It just does not make sense to me, no matter how I turn it.

Already now, in case of a major war I do not take an American victory as granted. I must admit by now I even see chances having shifted below the 50:50 ratio already, against the US. And the shift goes on, every month.

Last edited by Skybird; 10-27-2017 at 10:12 AM.
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Old 10-27-2017, 10:24 AM   #4
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If reports are accurate you can also add the French and Royal Navy to the list.
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Old 10-27-2017, 01:52 PM   #5
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Do we know that the American's did not know about this?

A good way to collect intelligence on the Chinese is not stopping them from doing something but collecting detailed information on how they are doing it.

A good way to give the Chinese intelligence is letting them know exactly when we can detect them.

This is one of the ongoing battles between Intelligence and Operations.

Too many times Ops wins and we end up losing an opportunity to learn and can even give a potential adversary new data.
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Old 10-27-2017, 05:02 PM   #6
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When heads are rolling I take that as a sign for that the event was unwelcomed.
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Old 10-28-2017, 12:32 AM   #7
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If I remember something I read about US carriers, their purpose is to be able to project US power and influence anywhere in the world when and where needed.

But listening to you guys what you're saying about carriers being vulnerable and not much more than targets has a ring of truth to it. It's not the "cold war" anymore and most of these ships and the reason for their creation was to fight a war or battle that doesn't exist anymore. Same with the new breed of SSN's....the Virginia class. They were designed to do what the Seawolf and LA class weren't. Fight a littoral battle in the enemies front and back yard. I've also read somewhere that the Seawolf SSN is already just about obsolete. Not to mention much more expensive to build then the Virginia.

With these quiet, modern diesel subs being sold to everyone and their granny, our enemies, especially our carrier enemies will only get worse. I'm surprised something hasn't happened already. Not that the Navy or the Pentagon would ever admit to it.

Last edited by CaptainCruise; 10-28-2017 at 12:41 AM.
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Old 10-28-2017, 07:48 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainCruise View Post
If I remember something I read about US carriers, their purpose is to be able to project US power and influence anywhere in the world when and where needed.

But listening to you guys what you're saying about carriers being vulnerable and not much more than targets has a ring of truth to it. It's not the "cold war" anymore and most of these ships and the reason for their creation was to fight a war or battle that doesn't exist anymore. Same with the new breed of SSN's....the Virginia class. They were designed to do what the Seawolf and LA class weren't. Fight a littoral battle in the enemies front and back yard. I've also read somewhere that the Seawolf SSN is already just about obsolete. Not to mention much more expensive to build then the Virginia.

With these quiet, modern diesel subs being sold to everyone and their granny, our enemies, especially our carrier enemies will only get worse. I'm surprised something hasn't happened already. Not that the Navy or the Pentagon would ever admit to it.

You pretty much nailed it as a Diesel electric sub in many cases can remain as quiet as an open grave. Looking at them as a launch platform, they can employ modern long range torpedoes and cruise missiles making them formidable adversaries.
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Old 10-28-2017, 08:40 AM   #9
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Ships and boats with nuclear drives can outrun them, however. Regarding destroying military naval targets, SSNs are more lurkers, not stalkers, and certainly no sprinters. They either need good intel and planning ahead so to have the time needed to get into the right place where to sit and wait, or simply good luck. At what speeds is a carrier group moving usually? 25 knots? Only to force enemy submarines making more noise, or break contact, being left behind
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Old 10-28-2017, 08:55 AM   #10
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I bet that Chinese sub skipper got a promotion!

This seems to happen every so often, also see In 2015, a 30 Year Old French Nuclear Submarine 'Sank' a US Aircraft Carrier

I bet when a US task force begins operations there is a queue of subs waiting to sneak in.
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Old 10-28-2017, 10:30 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Commander Wallace View Post
You pretty much nailed it as a Diesel electric sub in many cases can remain as quiet as an open grave. Looking at them as a launch platform, they can employ modern long range torpedoes and cruise missiles making them formidable adversaries.
Is that noisier than a closed grave?
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Old 10-28-2017, 11:09 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Platapus View Post
Is that noisier than a closed grave?
One would think since a closed grave needs to be dug thus generating noise that an open grave would be quieter.
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Old 10-29-2017, 10:55 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skybird View Post
Ships and boats with nuclear drives can outrun them, however. Regarding destroying military naval targets, SSNs are more lurkers, not stalkers, and certainly no sprinters. They either need good intel and planning ahead so to have the time needed to get into the right place where to sit and wait, or simply good luck. At what speeds is a carrier group moving usually? 25 knots? Only to force enemy submarines making more noise, or break contact, being left behind

Granted, any diesel sub caught behind the group in the wrong place would have to burn to try to get into a shooting spot and assuming they wouldn't have the speed needed to do it, they would probably be detected in the process.

BUT......what if a modern enemy diesel sub had the correct intel on a US carrier group operations and managed to get to the right place and just sit and wait? It could creep along at bare steerageway and stay as quiet as that open......hole someone mentioned. That's all the good luck they would probably need.

BTW.....speaking of diesel subs being bought and sold, which subs are they buying? I remember the Kilo being a popular choice. What else is on the market?
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Old 10-30-2017, 08:08 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainCruise View Post
BTW.....speaking of diesel subs being bought and sold, which subs are they buying? I remember the Kilo being a popular choice. What else is on the market?
Bulding submarines is a highly specialised industrial task which needs a lot of knowledge and longtime experience, therefore you have only a small number of nations building and selling them.

For conventional submarines (SS), these are Russia, France, Sweden, Netherlands, China (not exporting, as far as I know, but they build their own designs in SSN and SS now), and of course Germany. Germany has just signed a deal over three more subs with Israel, Germany also pays one third of the costs (which i do not like, they can buy our boats, but I do not want Germany to pay subventions for it).

Britain and America have given up their former expertise on Diesel submarines. They have an exclusive fetish for SSNs .
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Old 11-14-2017, 03:41 PM   #15
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Had the same thing here, where the SA navy sent a tape recording to the US embassy, of the US fleet passing, overhead a lurking SA Sub (that's at a time before we had 'captains' run our subs into the seabed ).

It's an international sport amongst submariners... to get noted.
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