UK Politics Thread - Page 574

Jimbuna · 11-17-18, 06:17 AM

Quote:

Amber Rudd back in cabinet as work and pensions secretary

The Return of the Jedi.

Quote:

Stephen Barclay appointed Brexit sec...

Nothing other than a front man...we all now know who gas been carrying out all the negotiations.

Skybird · 11-17-18, 08:56 AM

It seems that five ministers try to blackmail May to change the Backstop rules, threatening to step down if she fails to see these changes implemented.

Considering that the existing Backstop rule draft puts the UK helplessly at the mercy of the EU - what an insane position to agree to! - , I think according changes indeed are a must.

I also reject the idea of the EU beign the legal instance that oversees it. When the UK has left the EU, it is no EU member, but the court is a body exclusively responsible for internal issues of the eU that arise by problems with or over the EU laws and EU treaties regulating relatiosn and cooperations betwene emeber states. How this court could claim to also wanting to administrate EU non-members, always has been beyond me. After Brexit, EU institutions have no say on UK policies anymore, period. And Northern Ireland then is no EU member, but for the time being a member of the UK (as long as they do not separate).

Finally, what does it tell us abut the durability and fundament of the peace agreement of the Irish factions if they cannot maintain peace due to a customs border again with the Republic of Ireland? I woudol conclude from that that tribalis still is th edomiant feelign then, and the peace sooner or later would have ended anyway.

Some Irish groups and their stubborn history-fixiated mentality indeed have to finally adress their attitude of mutual provokations with marching season and all that primitive boasting and posing and flouncing around like cocks watching their hens. Its so hilarious. And so much fallen out of time. Appeasing all that just by spending them money is no lasting fundament for a lasting peace at all. The change must be in the hearts and minds, not just in the wallets. As long as they do not understand that, as long I will refuse to take them any serious, or even just as adults.

Jimbuna · 11-17-18, 09:56 AM

Those five ministers, Michael Gove, Liam Fox, Andrea Leadsom, Chris Grayling and Penny Mordaunt have more chance of getting bit on the bum off a cabbage than persuading May to conced any ground.

I sincerely hope I am wrong though.

Skybird · 11-17-18, 10:33 AM

So let her run aground. Who cares for her anyway. I still cannot see that this deal in this shape it is in passes the House. Its a "Chaosbude", yes, but if mathematics do not betray me...

Jimbuna · 11-17-18, 10:46 AM

STEED · 11-19-18, 08:22 AM

I hear some guy up North has sent May a letter calling for her to step down due to price rise on King pot noodles.

Not me I'm in the deep south.

Jimbuna · 11-19-18, 01:44 PM

Brexit withdrawal agreement - what it all means.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46237012

STEED · 11-19-18, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Brexit withdrawal agreement - what it all means.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46237012

Quote:

The UK will need to abide by all EU rules, but will lose membership of its institutions.

Boris would say....GET STUFFED!

STEED · 11-19-18, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Work and Pensions Secretary Amber Rudd has agreed to listen "very carefully" to concerns over universal credit, conceding the system "can be better".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46265558

And this is the women who fluffed up at the Home Office, don't hold your breath people.

Quote:

The DUP has failed to back the government on a number of amendments to its Finance Bill.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-46269685

The begin of making it hard for May.

ExFishermanBob · 11-20-18, 04:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

Some Irish groups and their stubborn history-fixiated mentality indeed have to finally adress their attitude of mutual provokations with marching season and all that primitive boasting and posing and flouncing around like cocks watching their hens. Its so hilarious. And so much fallen out of time. Appeasing all that just by spending them money is no lasting fundament for a lasting peace at all. The change must be in the hearts and minds, not just in the wallets. As long as they do not understand that, as long I will refuse to take them any serious, or even just as adults.

Amusing it is not.

I suggest you have a read:

Northern Ireland for Beginners and English Cabinet Ministers

Catfish · 11-20-18, 06:01 AM

I like the final paragraph, though it is of course only a summary of the well presented "rest":

"The case for ‘special status’ for Northern Ireland rests on the reality that Northern Ireland is, and always was, different.

Those who argue that giving Northern Ireland special status would strengthen the case of the Scots who want their own special status and a closer relationship with the EU, need to explain why Scotland should not have that right.

Scotland, like Northern Ireland, voted to Remain. Brexit is an English obsession.

Those who wish to maintain the existence of the UK state would be better advised allowing for and facilitating the real differences that exist between the UK’s component parts than in trying to force an Anglo-centric uniformity on everybody else.

Of course, it would help if they knew just a little bit more about Scotland and Northern Ireland. Here’s a clue: Finchley is in England, not in Northern Ireland or Scotland."

Ahem lol

Jimbuna · 11-20-18, 06:08 AM

Who has written no confidence letters against Theresa May?

Here is a list of MPs who have publicly said they have submitted letters:

1 Andrea Jenkyns, MP for Morley and Outwood, confirmed to Sunday Politics Yorkshire back in July that she had sent a letter.

2 Andrew Bridgen, MP for North West Leicestershire, submitted his five days later, saying the EU negotiations had "deteriorated into a state of complete capitulation"

3 Philip Davies, MP for Shipley, joined the letter writers of July, telling his constituents the Chequers plan was unacceptable, adding: "It is with much sadness that I have to say that I also lost trust in her to deliver the referendum result"

4 James Duddridge, MP for Rochford and Southend East, submitted his letter at the start of October, saying the Conservatives needed a leader that believes in Brexit and that "blind loyalty" was not the way forward.

5 Anne Marie Morris, MP for Newton Abbot, told Newsnight she had written her letter on Wednesday.

6 Laurence Robertson, MP for Tewkesbury, became the first of a long list to confirm his letter on Thursday, announcing it on BBC Radio Gloucestershire.

7 Jacob Rees-Mogg, MP for North East Somerset and head of the influential European Research Group of Brexiteer Tories, was next with his letter.

8 Nadine Dorries, MP for Mid Bedfordshire, confirmed she had submitted her letter but said on Twitter she had done so "some weeks ago"

9 Simon Clarke, MP for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland, confirmed he had sent a letter after a meeting of the European Research Group on Thursday.

10 Steve Baker, MP Wycombe and former Brexit minister, confirmed to BBC sources his letter was in on Thursday.

11 Henry Smith, MP for Crawley, confirmed his no confidence letter on Thursday in a separate letter to the prime minister.

12 Maria Caulfield, MP for Lewes, told the BBC on Thursday that she had sent her letter the previous evening.

13 Sheryll Murray, MP for South East Cornwall, tweeted her letter on Thursday, saying her decision was due to fishing policy and the Northern Ireland backstop.

14 Lee Rowley, MP for North East Derbyshire, told ITV on Thursday he could not accept the Brexit deal and had submitted a letter.

15 Martin Vickers, MP for Cleethorpes, told the Bristol Post on Thursday that he had submitted letter when Chequers first was produced earlier this year.

16 Peter Bone, MP for Wellingborough, told Newsnight on Thursday that he had sent in a letter.

17 Adam Holloway, MP for Gravesend, posted a picture on his Facebook account on Thursday saying the country needed leadership.

18 Mark Francois, MP for Rayleigh and Wickford, said to BBC News he will submit his letter "in the next 24 hours" - he confirmed he had on Friday.

19 John Whittingdale, MP for Maldon, confirmed to Nick Ferrari on LBC on Friday morning that he had submitted his letter.

20 Ben Bradley, MP for Mansfield, confirmed to BBC sources on Friday that he had sent his letter in October.

21 Chris Green, MP for Bolton West and Atherton, tweeted he had written his letter on Friday, citing his displeasure over the deal.

22 Marcus Fysh, MP for Yeovil, is also reported to have submitted a letter, saying on Twitter the "deal the PM has proposed is not in the national interest and cannot be regarded as leaving the EU".

23 Zac Goldsmith, MP for Richmond Park and North Kingston and former London mayor candidate, has submitted a letter of no confidence in Theresa May, writing in the Daily Telegraph that the PM "won't change course".

24 David Jones, MP for Clwyd West and a former Brexit minister, is widely reported to have submitted a letter and is on Conservativehome's list of those calling for Mrs May to go.

25 Sir Bill Cash, Conservative MP for Stone and veteran Eurosceptic, told BBC Radio Stoke the current deal doesn't fulfil promises.

26 Philip Hollobone, Conservative MP for Kettering, told BBC Radio Northampton that he sent a letter in on the day David Davis resigned, four months ago.

Skybird · 11-20-18, 06:30 AM

From ExFishermanBob'S link:

"Another important part of the Agreement deals with the key constitutional issue. Northern Ireland remains a part of the UK for as long as a majority so desires. Should that seem to have changed, a referendum will be held to give the people the choice between remaining in the UK or joining a united Ireland. Northern Ireland is thus conditionally part of the UK."

However, the big inherent self-contradiction:

"The Agreement also created North/South institutions connecting Northern Ireland and the Republic (the North/South Ministerial Council) and linking the Republic and the UK (the British-Irish Council). Such institutions obviously blur the distinction between the UK and the Republic as much as they do the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic. The core of the Agreement was thus a blurring of all sorts of borders. It represents a form of post-Westphalian sovereignty in which the distinction between being an Irish or British citizen, whether within Northern Ireland or within these islands, was more symbolic than of any practical significance."

You cannot eat the cake and keep it. You cannot stand on both sides of a line. You cannot stay and wanting to leave at the same time.

It seems a majority of the Northern Irish want to stay within the UK, And that another majority wants no Brexit. But inside the UK, the Irish no-Brexit voters were a minority only.

They have to chose what now they want. Staying with the UK, leaving to be an independent actor inside the EU, or going together with the Republic (if the latter agrees to that)? If I were the Republic, I would check the fiscal numbers of Northern Ireland very very carefully. Lessons learned from german reunification. Be careful of what you want.

Justb arguing that one wants to stay in the UK but that no brexit should be there, that is demanding that the UK- wid ereferendu majority should obey the will of the referendum minority.

And letting votings and referendums be repeated as often as neede duntil somesobdy gets the outcome he wants, is no good idea, but an eroding of the principle idea behind having majority decisions.

If the Irish want to separate from the UK, I'm fine with that. I only insist that they can pay for their"independence" then by themselves, and can economically maintain themselves. The other nations around must not want to come up for their deficits and costs.

I say the same about the scots. I say the same about the Catalonians. And I give neither London nor Madrid any right to claim that they can rule about people aganst their will if these peopel do not voluntarily subordinate temselves to such a ruling. Becasue that then would be one people claiming the right to possess and own another people. We call that slavery, and imperialism.

-----

The Gibraltar issue is cooking up again. The spaniards threaten to veto any Brexit agreement on behalf of the EU. The majority of people living in Gibraltar want to stay ith the UK. Madrid once again has absolutely no case here. I find this authoritarian and nationalistic posing of Madrid ove rCatalonia and Gibraltar increasingly annoying. If I were them, I would instead voluntarily give up Spanish claim for the Northafrican enclave at Ceuta. Its a wide open flank regarding migration. Spain better should withdraw behind the street of Gbraltar to use this waterway as a natural defence line.

Skybird · 11-20-18, 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Who has written no confidence letters against Theresa May?

Here is a list of MPs who have publicly said they have submitted letters:

1 Andrea Jenkyns, MP for Morley and Outwood, confirmed to Sunday Politics Yorkshire back in July that she had sent a letter.

2 Andrew Bridgen, MP for North West Leicestershire, submitted his five days later, saying the EU negotiations had "deteriorated into a state of complete capitulation"

3 Philip Davies, MP for Shipley, joined the letter writers of July, telling his constituents the Chequers plan was unacceptable, adding: "It is with much sadness that I have to say that I also lost trust in her to deliver the referendum result"

4 James Duddridge, MP for Rochford and Southend East, submitted his letter at the start of October, saying the Conservatives needed a leader that believes in Brexit and that "blind loyalty" was not the way forward.

5 Anne Marie Morris, MP for Newton Abbot, told Newsnight she had written her letter on Wednesday.

6 Laurence Robertson, MP for Tewkesbury, became the first of a long list to confirm his letter on Thursday, announcing it on BBC Radio Gloucestershire.

7 Jacob Rees-Mogg, MP for North East Somerset and head of the influential European Research Group of Brexiteer Tories, was next with his letter.

8 Nadine Dorries, MP for Mid Bedfordshire, confirmed she had submitted her letter but said on Twitter she had done so "some weeks ago"

9 Simon Clarke, MP for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland, confirmed he had sent a letter after a meeting of the European Research Group on Thursday.

10 Steve Baker, MP Wycombe and former Brexit minister, confirmed to BBC sources his letter was in on Thursday.

11 Henry Smith, MP for Crawley, confirmed his no confidence letter on Thursday in a separate letter to the prime minister.

12 Maria Caulfield, MP for Lewes, told the BBC on Thursday that she had sent her letter the previous evening.

13 Sheryll Murray, MP for South East Cornwall, tweeted her letter on Thursday, saying her decision was due to fishing policy and the Northern Ireland backstop.

14 Lee Rowley, MP for North East Derbyshire, told ITV on Thursday he could not accept the Brexit deal and had submitted a letter.

15 Martin Vickers, MP for Cleethorpes, told the Bristol Post on Thursday that he had submitted letter when Chequers first was produced earlier this year.

16 Peter Bone, MP for Wellingborough, told Newsnight on Thursday that he had sent in a letter.

17 Adam Holloway, MP for Gravesend, posted a picture on his Facebook account on Thursday saying the country needed leadership.

18 Mark Francois, MP for Rayleigh and Wickford, said to BBC News he will submit his letter "in the next 24 hours" - he confirmed he had on Friday.

19 John Whittingdale, MP for Maldon, confirmed to Nick Ferrari on LBC on Friday morning that he had submitted his letter.

20 Ben Bradley, MP for Mansfield, confirmed to BBC sources on Friday that he had sent his letter in October.

21 Chris Green, MP for Bolton West and Atherton, tweeted he had written his letter on Friday, citing his displeasure over the deal.

22 Marcus Fysh, MP for Yeovil, is also reported to have submitted a letter, saying on Twitter the "deal the PM has proposed is not in the national interest and cannot be regarded as leaving the EU".

23 Zac Goldsmith, MP for Richmond Park and North Kingston and former London mayor candidate, has submitted a letter of no confidence in Theresa May, writing in the Daily Telegraph that the PM "won't change course".

24 David Jones, MP for Clwyd West and a former Brexit minister, is widely reported to have submitted a letter and is on Conservativehome's list of those calling for Mrs May to go.

25 Sir Bill Cash, Conservative MP for Stone and veteran Eurosceptic, told BBC Radio Stoke the current deal doesn't fulfil promises.

26 Philip Hollobone, Conservative MP for Kettering, told BBC Radio Northampton that he sent a letter in on the day David Davis resigned, four months ago.

22 still missing? 48 needed, yes? I wonder why that is so? I thought the rebellion would be more powerful by now?

Jimbuna · 11-20-18, 10:48 AM

Me too but the real battle will commence if as expected, a commons vote rejects the deal and Brexit gets called off.

11-17-18, 08:56 AM	#8597
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,456 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	It seems that five ministers try to blackmail May to change the Backstop rules, threatening to step down if she fails to see these changes implemented. Considering that the existing Backstop rule draft puts the UK helplessly at the mercy of the EU - what an insane position to agree to! - , I think according changes indeed are a must. I also reject the idea of the EU beign the legal instance that oversees it. When the UK has left the EU, it is no EU member, but the court is a body exclusively responsible for internal issues of the eU that arise by problems with or over the EU laws and EU treaties regulating relatiosn and cooperations betwene emeber states. How this court could claim to also wanting to administrate EU non-members, always has been beyond me. After Brexit, EU institutions have no say on UK policies anymore, period. And Northern Ireland then is no EU member, but for the time being a member of the UK (as long as they do not separate). Finally, what does it tell us abut the durability and fundament of the peace agreement of the Irish factions if they cannot maintain peace due to a customs border again with the Republic of Ireland? I woudol conclude from that that tribalis still is th edomiant feelign then, and the peace sooner or later would have ended anyway. Some Irish groups and their stubborn history-fixiated mentality indeed have to finally adress their attitude of mutual provokations with marching season and all that primitive boasting and posing and flouncing around like cocks watching their hens. Its so hilarious. And so much fallen out of time. Appeasing all that just by spending them money is no lasting fundament for a lasting peace at all. The change must be in the hearts and minds, not just in the wallets. As long as they do not understand that, as long I will refuse to take them any serious, or even just as adults. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

11-17-18, 09:56 AM	#8598
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 180,962 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	Those five ministers, Michael Gove, Liam Fox, Andrea Leadsom, Chris Grayling and Penny Mordaunt have more chance of getting bit on the bum off a cabbage than persuading May to conced any ground. I sincerely hope I am wrong though. __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!! GWX3.0 Download Page - Donation/instant access to GWX (Help SubSim)

11-17-18, 10:33 AM	#8599
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,456 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	So let her run aground. Who cares for her anyway. I still cannot see that this deal in this shape it is in passes the House. Its a "Chaosbude", yes, but if mathematics do not betray me... __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

11-17-18, 10:46 AM	#8600
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 180,962 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	__________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!! GWX3.0 Download Page - Donation/instant access to GWX (Help SubSim)

11-19-18, 08:22 AM	#8601
STEED Lucky Jack Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Down Town UK Posts: 27,695 Downloads: 89 Uploads: 48	I hear some guy up North has sent May a letter calling for her to step down due to price rise on King pot noodles. Not me I'm in the deep south. __________________ Dr Who rest in peace 1963-2017. To borrow Davros saying...I NAME YOU CHIBNALL THE DESTROYER OF DR WHO YOU KILLED IT!

11-19-18, 01:44 PM	#8602
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 180,962 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	Brexit withdrawal agreement - what it all means. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46237012 __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!! GWX3.0 Download Page - Donation/instant access to GWX (Help SubSim)

11-20-18, 06:01 AM	#8606
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 16,892 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	I like the final paragraph, though it is of course only a summary of the well presented "rest": "The case for ‘special status’ for Northern Ireland rests on the reality that Northern Ireland is, and always was, different. Those who argue that giving Northern Ireland special status would strengthen the case of the Scots who want their own special status and a closer relationship with the EU, need to explain why Scotland should not have that right. Scotland, like Northern Ireland, voted to Remain. Brexit is an English obsession. Those who wish to maintain the existence of the UK state would be better advised allowing for and facilitating the real differences that exist between the UK’s component parts than in trying to force an Anglo-centric uniformity on everybody else. Of course, it would help if they knew just a little bit more about Scotland and Northern Ireland. Here’s a clue: Finchley is in England, not in Northern Ireland or Scotland." Ahem lol __________________ >^..^<*)))>{ All generalizations are wrong.

11-20-18, 06:08 AM	#8607
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 180,962 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	Who has written no confidence letters against Theresa May? Here is a list of MPs who have publicly said they have submitted letters: 1 Andrea Jenkyns, MP for Morley and Outwood, confirmed to Sunday Politics Yorkshire back in July that she had sent a letter. 2 Andrew Bridgen, MP for North West Leicestershire, submitted his five days later, saying the EU negotiations had "deteriorated into a state of complete capitulation" 3 Philip Davies, MP for Shipley, joined the letter writers of July, telling his constituents the Chequers plan was unacceptable, adding: "It is with much sadness that I have to say that I also lost trust in her to deliver the referendum result" 4 James Duddridge, MP for Rochford and Southend East, submitted his letter at the start of October, saying the Conservatives needed a leader that believes in Brexit and that "blind loyalty" was not the way forward. 5 Anne Marie Morris, MP for Newton Abbot, told Newsnight she had written her letter on Wednesday. 6 Laurence Robertson, MP for Tewkesbury, became the first of a long list to confirm his letter on Thursday, announcing it on BBC Radio Gloucestershire. 7 Jacob Rees-Mogg, MP for North East Somerset and head of the influential European Research Group of Brexiteer Tories, was next with his letter. 8 Nadine Dorries, MP for Mid Bedfordshire, confirmed she had submitted her letter but said on Twitter she had done so "some weeks ago" 9 Simon Clarke, MP for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland, confirmed he had sent a letter after a meeting of the European Research Group on Thursday. 10 Steve Baker, MP Wycombe and former Brexit minister, confirmed to BBC sources his letter was in on Thursday. 11 Henry Smith, MP for Crawley, confirmed his no confidence letter on Thursday in a separate letter to the prime minister. 12 Maria Caulfield, MP for Lewes, told the BBC on Thursday that she had sent her letter the previous evening. 13 Sheryll Murray, MP for South East Cornwall, tweeted her letter on Thursday, saying her decision was due to fishing policy and the Northern Ireland backstop. 14 Lee Rowley, MP for North East Derbyshire, told ITV on Thursday he could not accept the Brexit deal and had submitted a letter. 15 Martin Vickers, MP for Cleethorpes, told the Bristol Post on Thursday that he had submitted letter when Chequers first was produced earlier this year. 16 Peter Bone, MP for Wellingborough, told Newsnight on Thursday that he had sent in a letter. 17 Adam Holloway, MP for Gravesend, posted a picture on his Facebook account on Thursday saying the country needed leadership. 18 Mark Francois, MP for Rayleigh and Wickford, said to BBC News he will submit his letter "in the next 24 hours" - he confirmed he had on Friday. 19 John Whittingdale, MP for Maldon, confirmed to Nick Ferrari on LBC on Friday morning that he had submitted his letter. 20 Ben Bradley, MP for Mansfield, confirmed to BBC sources on Friday that he had sent his letter in October. 21 Chris Green, MP for Bolton West and Atherton, tweeted he had written his letter on Friday, citing his displeasure over the deal. 22 Marcus Fysh, MP for Yeovil, is also reported to have submitted a letter, saying on Twitter the "deal the PM has proposed is not in the national interest and cannot be regarded as leaving the EU". 23 Zac Goldsmith, MP for Richmond Park and North Kingston and former London mayor candidate, has submitted a letter of no confidence in Theresa May, writing in the Daily Telegraph that the PM "won't change course". 24 David Jones, MP for Clwyd West and a former Brexit minister, is widely reported to have submitted a letter and is on Conservativehome's list of those calling for Mrs May to go. 25 Sir Bill Cash, Conservative MP for Stone and veteran Eurosceptic, told BBC Radio Stoke the current deal doesn't fulfil promises. 26 Philip Hollobone, Conservative MP for Kettering, told BBC Radio Northampton that he sent a letter in on the day David Davis resigned, four months ago. __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!! GWX3.0 Download Page - Donation/instant access to GWX (Help SubSim)

11-20-18, 06:30 AM	#8608
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,456 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	From ExFishermanBob'S link: "Another important part of the Agreement deals with the key constitutional issue. Northern Ireland remains a part of the UK for as long as a majority so desires. Should that seem to have changed, a referendum will be held to give the people the choice between remaining in the UK or joining a united Ireland. Northern Ireland is thus conditionally part of the UK." However, the big inherent self-contradiction: "The Agreement also created North/South institutions connecting Northern Ireland and the Republic (the North/South Ministerial Council) and linking the Republic and the UK (the British-Irish Council). Such institutions obviously blur the distinction between the UK and the Republic as much as they do the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic. The core of the Agreement was thus a blurring of all sorts of borders. It represents a form of post-Westphalian sovereignty in which the distinction between being an Irish or British citizen, whether within Northern Ireland or within these islands, was more symbolic than of any practical significance." You cannot eat the cake and keep it. You cannot stand on both sides of a line. You cannot stay and wanting to leave at the same time. It seems a majority of the Northern Irish want to stay within the UK, And that another majority wants no Brexit. But inside the UK, the Irish no-Brexit voters were a minority only. They have to chose what now they want. Staying with the UK, leaving to be an independent actor inside the EU, or going together with the Republic (if the latter agrees to that)? If I were the Republic, I would check the fiscal numbers of Northern Ireland very very carefully. Lessons learned from german reunification. Be careful of what you want. Justb arguing that one wants to stay in the UK but that no brexit should be there, that is demanding that the UK- wid ereferendu majority should obey the will of the referendum minority. And letting votings and referendums be repeated as often as neede duntil somesobdy gets the outcome he wants, is no good idea, but an eroding of the principle idea behind having majority decisions. If the Irish want to separate from the UK, I'm fine with that. I only insist that they can pay for their"independence" then by themselves, and can economically maintain themselves. The other nations around must not want to come up for their deficits and costs. I say the same about the scots. I say the same about the Catalonians. And I give neither London nor Madrid any right to claim that they can rule about people aganst their will if these peopel do not voluntarily subordinate temselves to such a ruling. Becasue that then would be one people claiming the right to possess and own another people. We call that slavery, and imperialism. ----- The Gibraltar issue is cooking up again. The spaniards threaten to veto any Brexit agreement on behalf of the EU. The majority of people living in Gibraltar want to stay ith the UK. Madrid once again has absolutely no case here. I find this authoritarian and nationalistic posing of Madrid ove rCatalonia and Gibraltar increasingly annoying. If I were them, I would instead voluntarily give up Spanish claim for the Northafrican enclave at Ceuta. Its a wide open flank regarding migration. Spain better should withdraw behind the street of Gbraltar to use this waterway as a natural defence line. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

11-20-18, 10:48 AM	#8610
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 180,962 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	Me too but the real battle will commence if as expected, a commons vote rejects the deal and Brexit gets called off. __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!! GWX3.0 Download Page - Donation/instant access to GWX (Help SubSim)