Torpedo Targeting Question(s):

[hunter301]

I have a few questions regarding torpedo targeting and firing:

• Is using the "L" key the same as constant bearing tracking as on a real sub?
• If I don't use the "L" or constant bearing key but I follow the target with my targeting scope is my torpedo bearing going to shoot where ever my cross hairs are looking?
• I was reading that 1 degree at 2000 yds. is equal to 100 feet separation. So at 1000 yards I'm looking at only 50 feet spread. If I've got a destroyer coming directly at me and I set up for a bow shot am I better off doing a larger spread such as 5 degrees which would equal 250 feet separation either left or right depending on where I am.

[hunter301]

While playing the training convoy mission again I noticed that the first two torpedoes I fired right off the bow without using any of the Attack Data Tool input went straight where I was looking. But then as soon as I brought up the Position Keeper and followed up the other shots they started going off in erratic locations no where near where I was aiming. What or when does the Periscope/torpedo combination actually get "slaved" to the TDC?
What is the purpose of the red button at the bottom of the Position Keeper for, Does it actually send the information from the Attack Data Tool to the TDC when you push the button and it turns red?

Is there some kind of training tutorials that can tell me what I'm doing wrong if anything? I don't want to go back to using the easy mode for shooting. Defeats the purpose of the game.

[Sniper297]

The red button "PK" is Position Keeper. Purpose of that is to keep the TDC plotting the current position of the target when the periscope is down. In real life they raised the periscope for 10 seconds or less to take range, bearing, and estimate of angle on the bow, then lowered the periscope to make it less likely some alert lookout would spot it. If you leave it up for 10 minutes, sooner or later someone will notice it. 10 seconds every 2 to 5 minutes reduces the chances of anyone seeing it.

So the Position Keeper tracks the target - but assumes that the target is not turning, speeding up, or slowing down, but maintaining a steady course. That's why it's necessary to note the position, bearing, range and speed on the TDC, then click the red button to turn it off, raise the periscope to take all the readings again to confirm the accuracy of the plot. And turn it OFF before firing, the "FINAL BEARING AND SHOOT" observation has to be real time rather than the prediction made by the PK, although they should match pretty close.

Again this bears repeating because it's important, hit the Q key before shooting to open the outer doors - if you let the game automatically open the outer doors, the torpedo will be aimed at where the target WAS, not where it IS, when the torpedo leaves the tube. Single biggest cause of misses behind in this game is failing to check outer doors open before firing.

For manual targeting, main reasons I don't use it is because (1) I find it very difficult to estimate angle on the bow within 20 degrees, and (2) the AOB changes very rapidly at closer ranges. With manual targeting the range, bearing, AOB, and target speed have to all be correct when you fire, if you have the AOB for the previous target still set or the AOB is correct but the target sped up, slowed down, started turning, or danced the Macarena since the last inputs, the gyro angle on the torpedo will be aimed the wrong direction.

Essentially that means you have to turn off the PK (the only thing it's good for is keeping track of a single target when you're not looking at that target, helpful when plotting but not when firing) and check all the numbers for each target. And hit Q then W to cycle through each tube and check the message "OPENING TUBE (number)" for each tube before starting the actual attack.

Keep in mind if it was easy, everyone would be doing it.

[hunter301]

Originally Posted by Sniper297

The red button "PK" is Position Keeper. Purpose of that is to keep the TDC plotting the current position of the target when the periscope is down. In real life they raised the periscope for 10 seconds or less to take range, bearing, and estimate of angle on the bow, then lowered the periscope to make it less likely some alert lookout would spot it. If you leave it up for 10 minutes, sooner or later someone will notice it. 10 seconds every 2 to 5 minutes reduces the chances of anyone seeing it.

So the Position Keeper tracks the target - but assumes that the target is not turning, speeding up, or slowing down, but maintaining a steady course. That's why it's necessary to note the position, bearing, range and speed on the TDC, then click the red button to turn it off, raise the periscope to take all the readings again to confirm the accuracy of the plot. And turn it OFF before firing, the "FINAL BEARING AND SHOOT" observation has to be real time rather than the prediction made by the PK, although they should match pretty close.

Again this bears repeating because it's important, hit the Q key before shooting to open the outer doors - if you let the game automatically open the outer doors, the torpedo will be aimed at where the target WAS, not where it IS, when the torpedo leaves the tube. Single biggest cause of misses behind in this game is failing to check outer doors open before firing.

For manual targeting, main reasons I don't use it is because (1) I find it very difficult to estimate angle on the bow within 20 degrees, and (2) the AOB changes very rapidly at closer ranges. With manual targeting the range, bearing, AOB, and target speed have to all be correct when you fire, if you have the AOB for the previous target still set or the AOB is correct but the target sped up, slowed down, started turning, or danced the Macarena since the last inputs, the gyro angle on the torpedo will be aimed the wrong direction.

Essentially that means you have to turn off the PK (the only thing it's good for is keeping track of a single target when you're not looking at that target, helpful when plotting but not when firing) and check all the numbers for each target. And hit Q then W to cycle through each tube and check the message "OPENING TUBE (number)" for each tube before starting the actual attack.

Keep in mind if it was easy, everyone would be doing it.

Wow this answers a lot. Thanks.
I was thinking the PK had a lot more to do with the TDC targeting than it actually does. I guess "Attack Data Tool" is your main go to tool for setting up the shots.

If you wanted to just shoot from the hip as I find myself having to do when "duking it out" with a couple of destroyers at close range how would you shoot just using the periscope without any information being sent to the TDC and causing the fish to go off on some erratic course. A lot of time when your within 1,500 yds. of destroyers you don't have time for all of the....Range.....Angle on the Bow....and Speed determination.

[Sniper297]

I know, that's why I use automatic targeting.

The few times I've played with manual targeting I generally go to the AOB dial and set it at zero, then set speed to zero on the TDC panel. Do that and the torpedo will go in whatever direction you have the scope crosshairs pointed, takes the TDC out of the equation altogether. Also I never fool with the gyro spread panel, that's always set to zero.

Then you have to do a kind of "Kentucky windage" shooting, if you're on the beam of the target you mentally note the bearing, then move the crosshairs 10-15 degrees (right or left, depending on which way the target is heading) and shoot. Two ways to do a spread, shoot, move scope a few degrees and shoot again, repeat. That's the best way to deal with a destroyer coming straight at you, for a target crossing beam shot I use "constant angle" where the scope is pointed to lead him by however many degrees his estimated speed is, then hit X to bring up the stopwatch. Fire a shot, wait 10-15 seconds, fire two, 10-15 seconds more, fire three, etc. If he's moving across your bow or stern at a 90 degree angle (beam shot) that spreads the hits from bow to stern as the torpedoes follow each other, since he's moving across their track.

Real life before WWII skippers were trained to aim two shots to miss, one ahead and one astern, with one shot aimed at middle of the target. If your firing solution was perfect and the target didn't speed up, slow down, or turn you'd be intentionally wasting two torpedoes but guaranteeing at least one hit. When the war actually started the chronic shortage of torpedoes and all the other problems ended that strategy in a hurry.

Basically if you're making a snap shot you have to set target speed to zero on the TDC, then aim wherever you think he'll be when the fish arrives. Target speed zero on the TDC should end the wild turns from the gyro compensating for target speed, you should have time for that even with a hurried snap shot.

[Sniper297]

Disregard some of the above. Been so long since I fiddled with manual targeting I was wrong in the main aspect - the TDC can NOT be eliminated from the equation. With auto targeting if you don't have a target near the crosshairs, the fish will go wherever the scope is pointed. To spread down the length of the target you can unlock with the L key then move the crosshairs slightly left and right, as long as the little pointer is still visible the torpedo will go to hit where the crosshairs are, if the pointer is not on it will go straight without adjusting to target speed and direction.

Manual targeting doesn't work like that, if the speed is set at zero you still have to have the stadimeter in the right side dial, and each time you move the scope you have to click the "send range and bearing to TDC" button each time you move the crosshairs. So to fire a down the throat spread at an oncoming destroyer with manual targeting (which I call "masochistic targeting") you have to;
1. Select the speed dial on the right hand multi function dial, set target speed to zero,
2. Select the stadimeter dial, aim the scope, click the "send range and bearing to TDC" button, fire one.
3. Move the scope left or right, go back to the stadimeter and click the "send range and bearing to TDC" button, fire two.
4. Move the scope right or left, go back to the stadimeter and click the "send range and bearing to TDC" button, fire three.

Repeat until insane.

[hunter301]

Originally Posted by Sniper297

Disregard some of the above. Been so long since I fiddled with manual targeting I was wrong in the main aspect - the TDC can NOT be eliminated from the equation. With auto targeting if you don't have a target near the crosshairs, the fish will go wherever the scope is pointed. To spread down the length of the target you can unlock with the L key then move the crosshairs slightly left and right, as long as the little pointer is still visible the torpedo will go to hit where the crosshairs are, if the pointer is not on it will go straight without adjusting to target speed and direction.

Manual targeting doesn't work like that, if the speed is set at zero you still have to have the stadimeter in the right side dial, and each time you move the scope you have to click the "send range and bearing to TDC" button each time you move the crosshairs. So to fire a down the throat spread at an oncoming destroyer with manual targeting (which I call "masochistic targeting") you have to;
1. Select the speed dial on the right hand multi function dial, set target speed to zero,
2. Select the stadimeter dial, aim the scope, click the "send range and bearing to TDC" button, fire one.
3. Move the scope left or right, go back to the stadimeter and click the "send range and bearing to TDC" button, fire two.
4. Move the scope right or left, go back to the stadimeter and click the "send range and bearing to TDC" button, fire three.

Repeat until insane.

Don't know what I'm doing wrong but I have the cruiser in the training/torpedo convoy mission. One large cruiser moving across your bow at a dead 90 angle shot about 2,000 yds range and every time I go thru the motions of setting up the range/angle on the bow/speed, using the attack data tool, the Position keeper (Keep having to reset it or my sub is not angle any were close to were it should be relative to the target). I'm only at 1/3 ahead speed, I'm leaving the spread at 0 degrees but every time I fire the torpedo is goes out straight for a short distance the it hooks either a hard right or hard left turn much more than it needs to to get to the ship. The only hit I ever got was straight off the bow and that was only because he was crossing right over my bow at the time. The torpedo gyro angle is saying 110 degrees when the target is at 350 degrees relative.

[Rockin Robbins]

Okay, Hunter, it's been awhile for me since I can't seem to get Windows 7 to work on my Ryzen motherboard and am never going to run Windows 10. But in the Sub Skippers' Bag of Tricks thread are all my tutorials on how to shoot torpedoes manually. I tend to use constant bearing techniques like the U-Boats did, but they work very differently with American boats.

I'll be back with some more details!

[Sniper297]

"Position keeper (Keep having to reset it or my sub is not angle any were close to were it should be relative to the target)"
Got to remember to click the red button to turn the PK off, otherwise you're shooting at where the TDC THINKS the target is. "FINAL BEARING AND SHOOT" should be with the PK off.

Also, the angle on the bow needs to be reset - that AOB is a royal pain, since when the target is far away the AOB should be less than 10 degrees, and it stays that way for a long time - then suddenly the angle changes faster and faster and ZOOM! One way to understand what's going on is to stand by the side of a road, watch a car coming. The aspect angle is very small, stays small, car gets bigger as it gets closer, then even if it's moving slowly you have to turn your head faster and faster to keep looking directly at it as it passes by.

That's the main problem with AOB, closer the target gets the more difficult it is to keep up with the increasingly rapid change in the angle. For that reason, my steps;

1. Q W Q W repeat, check the message window for "OPENING TUBE (number)" each time. Again CRITICAL VITAL IMPORTANT the game has an automatic "feature" that opens the outer doors automatically if you forgot to open them with the Q key before, and that feature ALWAYS screws up the firing solution. Gyro angle set, hit the ENTER key, oops you forgot to open the outer doors, here I'll do it for you, target is still moving by the way, there now the doors are open "TORPEDO IN THE WATER". Aimed at where the target WAS a few seconds ago, not where it IS.
Check outer doors open before starting the attack every time.

2. Speed, AOB, range and bearing are in the TDC, target getting close. The lead angle is going to be somewhere between 10 and 15 degrees off your bow when you shoot, for as close to a zero gyro angle shot as you can get. Since the AOB is going to change too fast to keep up, set it now for about 75 to 80 degrees so when the target reaches the firing point it will be close to correct. Switch the dial to the stadimeter.

3. Target getting really close to the firing point (stopwatch and a little math preparation helps here), turn off PK, up periscope, check range and bearing, click send range and bearing to TDC.

4. Target at the firing point, "FINAL BEARING AND SHOOT". Aim crosshairs at target, never mind the range since it will be about the same as the last observation a minute ago, but the bearing will have changed. Click send range and bearing to TDC, fire one.

While you're learning this I would advise playing with map contact updates on, kinda like training wheels for manual targeting. Just below the navigation map button is the attack map, that will show the relative positions along with a torpedo track line which shows where the torpedo gyro is set to go.

[hunter301]

Originally Posted by Sniper297

"Position keeper (Keep having to reset it or my sub is not angle any were close to were it should be relative to the target)"
Got to remember to click the red button to turn the PK off, otherwise you're shooting at where the TDC THINKS the target is. "FINAL BEARING AND SHOOT" should be with the PK off.

If your always having to turn the PK off what the reason for it?
In the manual and training tutorials they put a lot of relevance in using it during attacks but it's seeming like it's more of a distraction from what you should be doing.

Originally Posted by Sniper297

Also, the angle on the bow needs to be reset - that AOB is a royal pain, since when the target is far away the AOB should be less than 10 degrees, and it stays that way for a long time - then suddenly the angle changes faster and faster and ZOOM! One way to understand what's going on is to stand by the side of a road, watch a car coming. The aspect angle is very small, stays small, car gets bigger as it gets closer, then even if it's moving slowly you have to turn your head faster and faster to keep looking directly at it as it passes by.

That's the main problem with AOB, closer the target gets the more difficult it is to keep up with the increasingly rapid change in the angle. For that reason, my steps;

Even when following something as big as a cruiser when he turns away from you in the training mission and he shows you his ahem...stern he is zigzagging so much you could never keep up in the AOB of the Attack Data Tool. I would prefer to just read what I believe he intends to do and try to shoot where I think he's going to turn.

Originally Posted by Sniper297

1. Q W Q W repeat, check the message window for "OPENING TUBE (number)" each time. Again CRITICAL VITAL IMPORTANT the game has an automatic "feature" that opens the outer doors automatically if you forgot to open them with the Q key before, and that feature ALWAYS screws up the firing solution. Gyro angle set, hit the ENTER key, oops you forgot to open the outer doors, here I'll do it for you, target is still moving by the way, there now the doors are open "TORPEDO IN THE WATER". Aimed at where the target WAS a few seconds ago, not where it IS.
Check outer doors open before starting the attack every time.

This one is definitely one that I keep forgetting to do. Guess it does add some time to your shot. When you done shooting does the torpedo room crew automatically close the doors or do you have to order them to?
What about in a situation when you have to crash dive and go deep and you had ordered the doors to be opened. Does the torpedo room crew close them or wait till the pressure blows the inside hatch open and floods the ship..lol??

Originally Posted by Sniper297

4. Target at the firing point, "FINAL BEARING AND SHOOT". Aim crosshairs at target, never mind the range since it will be about the same as the last observation a minute ago, but the bearing will have changed. Click send range and bearing to TDC, fire one.

Is there a way to look at a target with the scope and fire it on that bearing you are looking at?

Originally Posted by Sniper297

While you're learning this I would advise playing with map contact updates on, kinda like training wheels for manual targeting. Just below the navigation map button is the attack map, that will show the relative positions along with a torpedo track line which shows where the torpedo gyro is set to go.

I have been using the map contacts more lately mostly for ranging targets and using it to see if I'm making an accurate range estimate thru the stadimeter. I am also backing that up with my sonar asking for "range to target" "Send bearing to TDC" and the "Send Range to TDC" commands.
That's one of the main reasons I keep the PK on all the time is to confirm the information that I'm inputting.

BTW if I haven't said it appreciate all the input. Especially in a game that came out years ago. Nice to see it still has a lot of life in it.
Not much else out there with its realistic simulation features.

[Sniper297]

"If your always having to turn the PK off what the reason for it?
In the manual and training tutorials they put a lot of relevance in using it during attacks but it's seeming like it's more of a distraction from what you should be doing."

Main reason I hardly ever use it, too much distraction. Plotting on the map works fine if the target is moving at a steady speed on a steady course, and the PK keeps track using that assumption. Main reason it exists is to give a visual picture of the relative positions and movements of the sub and the target if some high speed maneuvering is needed, in real life the sub had to dive deeper so there wouldn't be a visible disturbance on the surface, crank up the speed and do the turns, then slow down to 2 knots before rising to periscope depth again. Game doesn't simulate that, the enemy sees the periscope at the same range whether you're stopped or running fast enough to send up spray 5 feet high. Same applies to running on the surface or decks awash, the white spray is clearly visible on the monitor but the AI enemy can't see it. Use the PK for the approach if it helps, shut it down for the actual attack.

"Even when following something as big as a cruiser when he turns away from you in the training mission and he shows you his ahem...stern he is zigzagging so much you could never keep up in the AOB of the Attack Data Tool. I would prefer to just read what I believe he intends to do and try to shoot where I think he's going to turn."

If I'm reading that correctly you want to use "Kentucky windage" to lead the target strictly by eye - for that you have to set target speed to zero, dial up the stadimeter, point the scope, click SEND RANGE AND BEARING TO TDC so the gyro sets where you're pointing, then fire. What I found myself doing was;

1. Leave the AOB alone, leave speed set at zero. crank the mast height to max and hit the SEND RANGE AND BEARING TO TDC button. Now the fish are set with a zero gyro angle for the bow tubes, so you have to turn the whole sub to aim it. For slow merchant ships that works fine, point the sub ahead of the target, turn the scope to follow the target, fire when the crosshairs are 8 to 10 degrees off center.

2. For the stern tubes you have to point the scope 180 and click the SEND RANGE AND BEARING TO TDC button again. The range remains set at something like 1241 yards, but if the angle is correct the range doesn't actually matter, it's a triangle that will come to a point sooner or later.

3. To use the "angle-off" method when you can't line up the bow or stern in time, look at target, "try to shoot where I think he's going to turn" by rotating the scope in that direction and click the SEND RANGE AND BEARING TO TDC button before each shot.

It's not actually the correct way to do it, but the correct way just seems to complicated for me. This method seems sloppy, so I use automatic targeting and pretend my XO is a whiz on the TDC. In real life you have an approach assistant (usually the XO) and a whole plotting team, in the game you have to do everything yourself, so automatic targeting ON feels more realistic to me.

"This one is definitely one that I keep forgetting to do. Guess it does add some time to your shot. When you done shooting does the torpedo room crew automatically close the doors or do you have to order them to?
What about in a situation when you have to crash dive and go deep and you had ordered the doors to be opened. Does the torpedo room crew close them or wait till the pressure blows the inside hatch open and floods the ship..lol??"

Yeah, doors are shut automatically, in real life there's an interlock that prevents the inner door opening unless the outer is shut, and vice-versa. If you browse in Explorer to \Data\Submarine\NSS_Gato\ you'll find a text file (can be read/edited in notepad) named NSS_Gato.cfg, you'll find datablocks like;

[Properties]
PeriscopeDepth=18.3;meters
SnorkelDepth=15;meters
CrashDepth=40;meters
MaxDepth=132;meters
SurfaceDepth=4.7752;meters
TorpLaunchMaxDepth=30;meters
StormConditions=9,0.1;max wind speed [m/s], max rain intensity [0,1]

30 meters is about 100 feet, so if you go below that the outer doors shut automatically and you have to open them again with the Q key when you come back up. I eliminated that nonsense by editing mine;

[Properties]
PeriscopeDepth=18.3;meters
SnorkelDepth=15;meters
CrashDepth=40;meters
MaxDepth=132;meters
SurfaceDepth=4.7752;meters
TorpLaunchMaxDepth=300;meters
StormConditions=9,0.1;max wind speed [m/s], max rain intensity [0,1]

So once I open the outer doors they stay open until I shoot or shut them, the game doesn't simulate the real world problems caused by opening the doors too deep or leaving them open too long anyway so there's no point to it.

As for adding time to the shot, the delay is actually worse than just having to wait. Real life and in game there's a mechanical spindle inside each tube that engages a nut on the torpedo body, for setting depth, speed, and gyro angle. Connected electrically to the TDC it constantly updates the gyro angle until the moment the fire switch is thrown, then the spindle automatically retracts (so it STOPS UPDATING THE GYRO ANGLE since it's no longer mechanically connected), and the compressed air blows into the back of the tube to shove the torpedo out. The torpedo runs straight for 400 yards, then turns to the heading set in the gyro.

The target is moving, the sub is moving, any delay between the fire command and the fish actually leaving the tube makes the gyro angle wrong. That applies to both manual and automatic targeting, so checking outer doors open is vital - so vital that I used Silent 3ditor to edit my subs' .sim files, where it says;

auto_open = true

I changed all subs so they read;

auto_open = false

That way if the door is shut when I hit fire nothing happens, then I have to hit the Q, wait five seconds, re aim, then fire. Better than having a flawed program open it for me and missing because the solution is ancient history when the fish actually leaves the tube. Still baffles me how ubisoft screwed up that one little subroutine so badly, and how the beta testers missed it.

Almost forgot - as long as you're over 400 yards, closer is better. Within 1000 yards is best, if you're a few degrees off one way or another and he has alert lookouts who instantly see the wake, inside 1000 yards he has no time to react and the errors in aiming don't matter nearly as much as they do at 3000 yards, close in it's still gonna hit somewhere.