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Old 06-26-2017, 10:40 AM   #1
makman94
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Default Radar Fix for Sh3

Radar Fix for Sh3
---------------------



The way sh3 is rendering the Radar's Arc is showing at the following pic:



As you can see from the pic,the Arc is rendering always to the right side of pointing bearing so that means that actuall position of contact is at the bearing that Radar is LOSING the contact as this rotates.




Get the ''Radar Fix for sh3'' from my mediafire page
================================================== ================================================== ===================

Set up for fix:
----------------
1.

No matter what version of sh3 you are using, you must edit your sensors.dat.The following pic is showing the tweaks that you must do at radar's parameters (these tweaks must be done to all radar's devices):



The tweak at wheel speed is necessery in order to be able to turn smoothly the radar's wheel (about 1° for each click on radar's wheel)
The tweak at Arc's wide ( i set it to 60° but you can make it as smaller you like) is necessery in order to be alert early that target is allready in radar's arc and get ready to switch to focus mode when radar lose the contact (don't worry about multiple contacts inside the arc. sh3 radar device is 'catching' only the closest contact no matter how many contacts may be in the area)

NOTE FOR USERS OF MAGUI: WHEN YOU ARE DONE WITH THE RADAR STATION, ALWAYS SET RADAR TO SWEEP MODE BEFORE LEAVING THE STATION

2.

Only for STOCK sh3

Place the images ''cadrane_radio_7'' and ''cadrane_radio_9'' in your data/Textures/TNormal/tex folder


================================================== ================================================== ===================


Note 1:
The wheel is behaving differently at the various versions of sh3 (at stock is spinning clockwise and at other,like gwx, is spinning counterclockwise)

here are two videos showing how to use the Radar in stock and gwx3 radar stations:

Using the Radar of Stock Sh3:



Using the Radar of gw3:


Note 2: didn't check the behaviour of radar wheel at any other version of sh3 but i guess will be either one or other situation.


26/June/2017
Makman94


--------------------------------
Tweaking the Radar Scales
--------------------------------

At the following pic is showing the tweaks that you can do at radar scales to make them more readable (they allready were readable but now even more). this will help you to read more easily ranges above 10.000 m (the node for these tweaks is located in .cam files of interior folder for each uboat).
The digital range output is still making its work for ranges larger than 9.999 m
All you need to have in mind for such ranges is that the first digit stays locked above 10.000 m and therefore is not in use anymore.
The pic is showing
also how to read such ranges (you get the thousands directly from the radar right scale and the hundrends from the rest three digits of digital range output) :


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Last edited by makman94; 06-29-2017 at 07:37 PM.
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Old 06-26-2017, 01:29 PM   #2
itadriver
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Great!!!!!

Ps: is there sh4 ppi radar for sh3?
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Old 06-27-2017, 02:47 AM   #3
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Thank you, Makman !
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Old 06-27-2017, 10:12 AM   #4
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Next good work from makman mods studio
What about Magui Hahd?
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Old 06-27-2017, 01:40 PM   #5
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Very good, immediately tweaked my files. Thanks.
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Old 06-28-2017, 02:49 AM   #6
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Just one question : why did you choose 60° for the arc wide, and not 10° for example ?
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Old 06-28-2017, 03:59 AM   #7
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Will quote makman:
Quote:
Originally Posted by makman94 View Post
in order to be alert early that target is allready in radar's arc and get ready to switch to focus mode when radar lose the contact
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Old 06-29-2017, 07:33 PM   #8
makman94
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Some more tweaking stuff for your radar is at OP so check it




Quote:
Originally Posted by itadriver View Post
Great!!!!!

Ps: is there sh4 ppi radar for sh3?
hello Itadriver,
I don't believe that this is possible in sh3. In sh3,no matter how many targets are in the area, the radar is locating only the closest one (this is a bug of the game).So, i don't believe that the needed code for a ppi radar exists in sh3.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaxa View Post
Next good work from makman mods studio
What about Magui Hahd?
hello Jaxa,
i have answered this question many times.if i have something new to say about it , i will post the news. I will not mod for a long time (real life is really hard) and there are some more things i want to add to it when i will run it again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tycho View Post
Very good, immediately tweaked my files. Thanks.
enjoy Tycho
i have a question for you: do you think is possible to change the color of the radar scales to a greenish one (similar to target's 'pip') ?
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Old 06-30-2017, 09:55 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makman94 View Post
Some more tweaking stuff for your radar is at OP so check it


hello Jaxa,
i have answered this question many times.if i have something new to say about it , i will post the news. I will not mod for a long time (real life is really hard) and there are some more things i want to add to it when i will run it again

Sorry for my impatience, didn't want to be pressing.
Simply your mod looks so promising that I wanna to play it as soon as possible.
Real life is always more important than gaming.
Cheers
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Old 07-01-2017, 02:50 AM   #10
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Hi makman,

after a loooong journey under water your findings about the radar arc are worth to reengage into the technical discussion

To say the first: From my own experience I can confirm your observation about the simulation of the radar arc. The absolutely precise bearing (within 1°) of the target is at the end of the arc, when the radar loses contact and the cone is turning clockwise, like in GWX. But shouldn´t this lead to the conclusion, that the radar arc is to be opened to the left (counterclockwise, beginning from the bearing angle?

Btw, there must be said that in stock game, the simulation of the radar signals are mirrored. Targets in the west (270°) are shown in the east (90°) and vice versa. But 0° stays 0° and 180° stays 180°, so one cannot observe this bug if the target ist straight ahead, like in the videos This is an old bug, already found in 2005, and fixed in GWX an NYGM. Beyond, IIRC, the radar simulation turns clockwise by default, which means, that the hand wheel has to be turned counterclockwise to match the bearing ring behind the wheel. That´s the reason, why GWX had changed the orientation of the movement.

From the point of view of a "real" simulation, there are a few more things to mention:

The recommended turning rate by the BdU was 2 every minute, which means a sweeping periode of 30s. That was (is) a compromise between reliable recognition of objects (turning as slowly as possible) and a fast recognition (turning as fast as possible). E.g., if the FuMO is used as an air warning system (as it was in reality), an enemy plane, flying 200kn, which is around 100m/s, could approach 3000m within 30s but 5000m in 50s. Regarding the small maximum range of only 7 or 8 km of FuMO29 resp. FuMO30, the remaining time for an emergency dive was 40 to 50s, just enough to get away from the surface and to reach a certain depth under ideal circumstances. With a sweeping period of 50s, that minimum time will be reduced to 20 resp. 30 seconds, what is definitly too less time to reach a safe depth before the plane flies over. Of course, this is a worst case scenario, but if e.g. the signal was recognised with another delay for whatever reason, this could have had been the last contact to be made.

Another thing is: the original bearing precision of the different radar systems were around +/- 2 to 3°. The sweep arc is actually meant to describe this precision. In fact, with that way of determining the position, the "true" ingame bearing precision is 1°, much more precise than in reality.

Furthermore, you write that the radar "catches only the closest contact". Well, I´m not sure, if this is correct. AFAIK, the Radar man reports every new contact, but only one time, AND if that contact had not been seen earlier by the bridge crew. That´s all what he does. But if you use the radar by your own, you can determine different targets by turning the antenna. The radar is even a kind of multi-aiming, which means that you can watch multiple signals on your display. But this works only if you use a narrow beam to get a more or less precise bearing. Without having experienced with your setting, I believe that with that huge radar arc of 50 degree, you won´t be able to differentiate the bearings between several objects inside the cone.

The last thing is your new finding about the maximum elevation. If set to 360° as recommended, the signal gets stable without any interruption. This is a new finding at least for me and this is a huge improvement of quality. Buuuut, I believe the devs made this interruption with intent! Why? In real life, a submarine is the worst radar platform you can imagine. Not only leads the low height of the antenna to rather uncomfortable ranges. Then, at that time, the antenna was mounted fix to the tower or, later, to the elevating holder, but both coupled with the movement of the boat. Due to this, when in higher sea states, the antenna did not only scan the horizon, but also the sky or the bottom. During this up and down and shaking movement, an eventual contact was surely lost, or at least interrupted. IMHO that´s the reason why the devs had put in that interruption: Because the radar should be rather insufficient. And yes, it was.

Nonetheless, with your finding, we maybe could make that interruption sea state dependent. To be honest, at the moment I have no idea to how to do this. So please continue with your SH3 experiments and research, it is always higly interesting to find out, how the game works and thus to find new means to improve its behaviour.

Btw, OT, I love your new environment, but this should be nothing new for you. I use it for many years. Go on makman and with the best greetings

Leitender
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Old 07-02-2017, 02:13 PM   #11
makman94
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hello Leitender ,
so nice to hear from you mate as i know that you are very experienced on sensors themes
have a look inside your post for my notices

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leitender View Post
Hi makman,

after a loooong journey under water your findings about the radar arc are worth to reengage into the technical discussion

To say the first: From my own experience I can confirm your observation about the simulation of the radar arc. The absolutely precise bearing (within 1°) of the target is at the end of the arc, when the radar loses contact and the cone is turning clockwise, like in GWX. But shouldn´t this lead to the conclusion, that the radar arc is to be opened to the left (counterclockwise, beginning from the bearing angle?

if we are talking for the real radars , i think so too, but in sh3 the arc is rendered as i showed at pic

Btw, there must be said that in stock game, the simulation of the radar signals are mirrored. Targets in the west (270°) are shown in the east (90°) and vice versa. But 0° stays 0° and 180° stays 180°, so one cannot observe this bug if the target ist straight ahead, like in the videos This is an old bug, already found in 2005, and fixed in GWX an NYGM. Beyond, IIRC, the radar simulation turns clockwise by default, which means, that the hand wheel has to be turned counterclockwise to match the bearing ring behind the wheel. That´s the reason, why GWX had changed the orientation of the movement.

Nothing is mirrored to any version (stock or Gwx). the devs (at stock) have made a wrong texture (and only the texture) for the radar's bearing. Thats why i am saying at the set-up of the fix to replace the 'cadrane_radio_7' image with the one i included in the fix.
Both radars ANTENAS (i mean in stock and gwx) are turning clockwise and the arc ,at both is rendering at the right side of pointing bearing.Exactly the same thing,nothing different.The only difference they have is the direction of the radar WHEEL is turning. try the fix in both setups (but remember to replace the 'cadrane_radio_7' at stock version and you will understand what i mean.
In my opinion, stock with the correct 'cadrane_radio_7' is more logical. I mean that if the operator is turning the wheel clockwise,for example 20°,you expect to read 20° at the wheel and this is happening now at stock with the correct 'cadrane_radio_7'. (at gwx if you turn the wheel clockwise for 20° ,you read 340°).
both setups show the correct bearings now (becuase in gwx they made the wheel -and only the wheel- to turn counterclockwise).
Anyway, this (the wheel) has less importance as both radar antenas are turning clockwise and both are rendering the arc to the right side of pointing bearing.All i am saying is that stock setup seems the logical one for me.


From the point of view of a "real" simulation, there are a few more things to mention:

The recommended turning rate by the BdU was 2 every minute, which means a sweeping periode of 30s. That was (is) a compromise between reliable recognition of objects (turning as slowly as possible) and a fast recognition (turning as fast as possible). E.g., if the FuMO is used as an air warning system (as it was in reality), an enemy plane, flying 200kn, which is around 100m/s, could approach 3000m within 30s but 5000m in 50s. Regarding the small maximum range of only 7 or 8 km of FuMO29 resp. FuMO30, the remaining time for an emergency dive was 40 to 50s, just enough to get away from the surface and to reach a certain depth under ideal circumstances. With a sweeping period of 50s, that minimum time will be reduced to 20 resp. 30 seconds, what is definitly too less time to reach a safe depth before the plane flies over. Of course, this is a worst case scenario, but if e.g. the signal was recognised with another delay for whatever reason, this could have had been the last contact to be made.

Another thing is: the original bearing precision of the different radar systems were around +/- 2 to 3°. The sweep arc is actually meant to describe this precision. In fact, with that way of determining the position, the "true" ingame bearing precision is 1°, much more precise than in reality.

this is not changed with my recomment tweaks , you can't get an EXACT bearing by the 'clicks' on wheel. Still you have a precision of +/- 1°

Furthermore, you write that the radar "catches only the closest contact". Well, I´m not sure, if this is correct. AFAIK, the Radar man reports every new contact, but only one time, AND if that contact had not been seen earlier by the bridge crew. That´s all what he does. But if you use the radar by your own, you can determine different targets by turning the antenna. The radar is even a kind of multi-aiming, which means that you can watch multiple signals on your display. But this works only if you use a narrow beam to get a more or less precise bearing. Without having experienced with your setting, I believe that with that huge radar arc of 50 degree, you won´t be able to differentiate the bearings between several objects inside the cone.

I had made some tests before releasing the fix and noticed that only the closest target was showing on radar screen.Here take this mission:
http://www.mediafire.com/file/prpg8w...enge+RADAR.rar

in this mission i have placed two ships,one at bearing 0° 4000m and a second one at bearing 45° 11.314 m
Run the mission at your set up ,pay attention to pick the viic/41 (1945) uboat (in order to have the fumo30) and also remember to tweak your fumo30 for ranges till 15000m (in order to be able to have in radar range the second ship too).
On my set ups (gwx and stock) only the first ship is located on radar screen (although both are showing on map screen and radio man informs me for both of them). Now , if i send some torpedos to the first one (straight blind shots) and sink it then ,immediatelly, appears on radar screen the second one at 45° but not before. This behaviour is the same no matter what arc i use. i tried the mission ,even with 2° arc...still the same behaviour.
try the mission and tell me if you can 'see' on radar screen the second ship at 45°. Lets hope to be a simple tweak somewhere that i am missing.



The last thing is your new finding about the maximum elevation. If set to 360° as recommended, the signal gets stable without any interruption. This is a new finding at least for me and this is a huge improvement of quality. Buuuut, I believe the devs made this interruption with intent! Why? In real life, a submarine is the worst radar platform you can imagine. Not only leads the low height of the antenna to rather uncomfortable ranges. Then, at that time, the antenna was mounted fix to the tower or, later, to the elevating holder, but both coupled with the movement of the boat. Due to this, when in higher sea states, the antenna did not only scan the horizon, but also the sky or the bottom. During this up and down and shaking movement, an eventual contact was surely lost, or at least interrupted. IMHO that´s the reason why the devs had put in that interruption: Because the radar should be rather insufficient. And yes, it was.

Maybe it was intended by the devs , i also believe it too but i like it to be stamble.Anyone who like it the other way , simply is not inserting the tweak at the elevation of radar


Nonetheless, with your finding, we maybe could make that interruption sea state dependent. To be honest, at the moment I have no idea to how to do this. So please continue with your SH3 experiments and research, it is always higly interesting to find out, how the game works and thus to find new means to improve its behaviour.

Btw, OT, I love your new environment, but this should be nothing new for you. I use it for many years. Go on makman and with the best greetings

Leitender
my main interest is at the part of the mission i sent you.
it is a mystery why my radar is not catching the ship at 45° (thats why i said that it is a bug).
But you say that is not correct and ,as i know, that you are very experienced on sensors's theme you get me into research again and lets hope your radar to be able to 'see' that ship at 45°
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Old 07-05-2017, 12:26 PM   #12
Tycho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makman94 View Post
enjoy Tycho
i have a question for you: do you think is possible to change the color of the radar scales to a greenish one (similar to target's 'pip') ?
I don't know. These days I suffer of lack of personal time, but promise to look for this, when I will be free.
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Old 07-06-2017, 09:28 AM   #13
La vache
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Hallo makman94

Quote:
In my opinion, stock with the correct 'cadrane_radio_7' is more logical. I mean that if the operator is turning the wheel clockwise,for example 20°,you expect to read 20° at the wheel and this is happening now at stock with the correct 'cadrane_radio_7'. (at gwx if you turn the wheel clockwise for 20° ,you read 340°).
If they have a pointer about scale turn this clockwise, as on hydrophone.
A scale rotates on a fixed pointer counterclockwise.

45 ° is but right from 0 ° not left.
Change direction of rotation as in the picture seems to me more meaningful.

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Old 07-06-2017, 08:59 PM   #14
makman94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tycho View Post
I don't know. These days I suffer of lack of personal time, but promise to look for this, when I will be free.
thank you Tycho



Quote:
Originally Posted by La vache View Post
Hallo makman94


If they have a pointer about scale turn this clockwise, as on hydrophone.
A scale rotates on a fixed pointer counterclockwise.

45 ° is but right from 0 ° not left.
Change direction of rotation as in the picture seems to me more meaningful.

hello La vache,

whatever set up seems comfort to anyone is the good to use.
The wheel bearings must increase to the direction the wheel is turning(at sweep mode).
To tell it with other words: if your wheel is turning clockwise at sweep mode (like in stock) then your '45°' must be at the left of 0° but if your wheel is turning conterclockwise at sweep mode (like in gwx) then your '45°' must be at the right of 0°.
Anyway, as i said above, the way the wheel is spinning has less importance and everyone can set it as he likes.
Both setups, stock (but with the correct 'cadrane_radio_7' image) and gwx are showing the correct bearings so the way the wheel is spinning has no any valuable interest ,at least, for me.

my main interest is that radar's code seems to be broken.Further tests i am making are showing that the radar is not picking all the targets in the area or it is picking some or it is picking ...none ! i allready tried many different settings on radar sensors but nothing...the behaviour is still the same. i have made a mission were there are 8 ships around the uboat and the radar is picking....none. Tried the same mission on different versions of sh3 with their standar settings on radar (no any mods installed) and ....nothing...no picks on radar allthough they are appearing on map and RO is informing for their existance).

here is the mission for everyone to try out:
http://www.mediafire.com/file/61qsid...t+Radar+05.rar

Make sure to pick the viic/41 (1945) uboat in order to have the Fumo30 (at stock , WAC and gwx the viic/41 (1945) is equipped with the Fumo30 )

do you get any pick on your radar display ?
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Old 07-12-2017, 02:23 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makman94 View Post
enjoy Tycho
i have a question for you: do you think is possible to change the color of the radar scales to a greenish one (similar to target's 'pip') ?
Ready. Whatever colors you like.
I sent you a PM.

 


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