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Old 08-15-2008, 07:23 PM   #16
wdq4587
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Really interesting reply. Speak loud dos not mean you got the truth. I know that medic is not total useless in game, but what you can change (I mean all the modder can change) is only under the game developer programming frame. That sometimes really let the addon maker fell discouragement.

Just tell me what you thinking you can do with medic and the distance between what you can do with the irish1958's hope? Does there are any possibility to implement "unexpected accidents, illnesses, deaths, and disabilities"?

And if anyone know there are executeable script (I mean support if else for while) in sh3, please tell me where I can found it. I will check it. Simply said without a running able script or program language code. You can not program. Whether you thinking what you doing are how near the program.

If you want change the crew_config files, you don't need program skill, you just need take too much time to change it and see what happen. Although the program skill will help and let you know where is the limit, because the programmer can guess what other programmer (I mean game developer) thinking. I really see some addon maker have do something I said impossible in other game. But that's not the way I am thinking, it just looks like it works, but in fact not the really function we expected.
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Old 08-15-2008, 08:33 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wdq4587
Really interesting reply. Speak loud dos not mean you got the truth. I know that medic is not total useless in game, but what you can change (I mean all the modder can change) is only under the game developer programming frame. That sometimes really let the addon maker fell discouragement.

Just tell me what you thinking you can do with medic and the distance between what you can do with the irish1958's hope? Does there are any possibility to implement "unexpected accidents, illnesses, deaths, and disabilities"?

And if anyone know there are executeable script (I mean support if else for while) in sh3, please tell me where I can found it. I will check it. Simply said without a running able script or program language code. You can not program. Whether you thinking what you doing are how near the program.

If you want change the crew_config files, you don't need program skill, you just need take too much time to change it and see what happen. Although the program skill will help and let you know where is the limit, because the programmer can guess what other programmer (I mean game developer) thinking. I really see some addon maker have do something I said impossible in other game. But that's not the way I am thinking, it just looks like it works, but in fact not the really function we expected.

Speak loud? I wasn't speaking loud, I wasn't speaking at all actually. I'm typing. I never said I knew the truth, in fact, in my last post, did I not say "I've written programs before, but I will fully admit that I don't know very much about SH3 programming."

Secondly, As I said, just about every aspect of this game has been changed before in one way or another. You were the one to announce that it couldn't be done, and if it could, it wasn't worth it. You are also the one that said this conversation is pointless. This might sound ignorant, but it's the truth: If you have nothing positive to say, why post? 99.99% of the guys on here that mod and try to mod do so as a hobby. None of them are getting paid for it. We're all here helping each other, or at the very least, offering support. So that's the choices: Help it, Support it, Or leave it alone.

Also, every game has scripting, even if it is small. This game has scripts as well. What controls what happens when torpedos hit? Or when a ship takes on to much water? Those figures are scripts in the sense that they control what goes on in a game. It's not the real world, so everything needs to be programmed to run correctly. Any program that doesn't have these figures is an empty shell, and will not function.

Sorry guys (modders and friends), people like this make me mad. They jump in an nail people for ideas and then they are the first people to b**** when nothing new comes out, or there is a problem with a mod...
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Old 08-16-2008, 03:19 AM   #18
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Don't be mad. Don't say impossible is nothing. And don't say "every aspect of this game has been changed". There are many aspect I want to change that can not be change. I want the sea graphics in SH4. I want the measure distance method in SH4 (show 2 image at same time). I want can not hear the sound from another ship in sonar if there are land between my u-boat and that ship. I want I can control pump how much water. But I know there are no way to get these in SH3.

I just make a littel mod patch to against one program flaw on TDC auto update. If I can touch the game source code, I only need change about 10 to 30 lines. But the fact is I took much time to struggle with that flaw. And the solution is not perfect. Although I am glad to think it's acceptable and helpful.

And about script. Some game do have running able script (I mean in fact a program language like Lua). But these config files you called script are not really script. They are in fact data file. The program read these as parameters to decide what to do. So you can change do how much, or even not to do, but you can not let program do some new thing that not designed to do.

As I said above sometimes someone can let other people think they did it! But only 2 possibility: one is just look like, one is someone luck to found the programmer disabled part (mostly unfinished and with bugs). There are another possibility is that someone is a hacker, then he can really do that, he can change the program behavior. But I am not a hacker, you are not a hacker, 99.9% mod or addon maker are not a hacker. That's the fact, and welcome to real world.
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Old 08-16-2008, 06:42 AM   #19
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wdq4587 I understand what you have in mind actually, and I also take no liberties in telling people of their mod idea is just wishful thinking. But you obviously don't know enough about the SHIII framework. A lot of things can be made appear in the game by changing data files, especially save game files and they appear after reloading. All that's needed is an external program that makes these changes and hence the need for a programmer to step in. Mind that this concept requires certain procedures on the part of the user which I called fiendishly complex.

You are right that SHIII is data driven and no script exists as far as I know.

But no need to start an argument over this mates, all that irish1958 wanted was finding some support with his mod.
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Old 08-16-2008, 12:31 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wdq4587
Don't be mad. Don't say impossible is nothing. And don't say "every aspect of this game has been changed". There are many aspect I want to change that can not be change. I want the sea graphics in SH4. I want the measure distance method in SH4 (show 2 image at same time). I want can not hear the sound from another ship in sonar if there are land between my u-boat and that ship. I want I can control pump how much water. But I know there are no way to get these in SH3.

I just make a littel mod patch to against one program flaw on TDC auto update. If I can touch the game source code, I only need change about 10 to 30 lines. But the fact is I took much time to struggle with that flaw. And the solution is not perfect. Although I am glad to think it's acceptable and helpful.

And about script. Some game do have running able script (I mean in fact a program language like Lua). But these config files you called script are not really script. They are in fact data file. The program read these as parameters to decide what to do. So you can change do how much, or even not to do, but you can not let program do some new thing that not designed to do.

As I said above sometimes someone can let other people think they did it! But only 2 possibility: one is just look like, one is someone luck to found the programmer disabled part (mostly unfinished and with bugs). There are another possibility is that someone is a hacker, then he can really do that, he can change the program behavior. But I am not a hacker, you are not a hacker, 99.9% mod or addon maker are not a hacker. That's the fact, and welcome to real world.
WDQ4587: Seriously mate, you need to slow down, take a breathe and re-read my post. You have been misquoting me this entire conversation, twisting my words to try to use them against me. I really don't appreciate that. I did not say that every aspect of the game has been changed. I said "just about every aspect of this game has been changed before in one way or another." There's a difference there mate. I know there are things about the game that haven't been changed, but just about everything that anyone would want changed has been. The dat and cfg files aren't scripts, but act just like them to control the in game world. I still firmly believe that there are scripts in the game, even if they are hard coded. It would be hard to make a complex game without some sort of scripting to it.

And you're right, I'm not a hacker. That's not really needed for this game though, as it has the best support I've ever seen for a game from it's modding community. It appears that I am talking to a machine translator, because something is getting lost in translation here.

GlobalExplorer: I know that mate, and I wasn't trying to have an argument here. I always try to lend a hand where needed, I just needed to clear up this mess. I'll leave this thread alone unless something else needs to be said.
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Old 08-16-2008, 07:00 PM   #21
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Any Mod suggestion is worth looking into.
If you don't want to contribute to it's advancement?
Stay out of the thread.

Some of the craziest suggestions, over time have been productive.
This mod suggestion warrents serious thought and discussion.

And I RESENT the 'Hacker' statements!!
I will look into any file in anyway I deem needed to come to
a positive outcome.

And if you truely understand even half the files involved?
You don't need to 'Hack'.

And if you are indeed a 'programmer'?
Stop talking smack and prove it.

GlobalExplorer is the only one here I see that can back up his claims.

Now,
Crap or get off the pot!!
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Old 08-16-2008, 08:29 PM   #22
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I will not talk more. I guess I take frustrae felling from other game modding to here. The fact is all game developer will not hear you, (I know not all, I mean almost all), even they can fix the bug by changing only one line. (for example some bugs in GWX manual). If your guys don't fell limitation. That's good. continue...

My mother language is not English. So I think I really "misquoting" some posts. I apologize for that. But I don't back my word about most irish1958's hope can not be implement by just modding.

Then about "hacker", I may using a wrong word. May be should called cracker. But any way I not mean the man who only changes the data files. So I am not mean any of you. I only mean the man who change the program code, mostly by disassemble.

BTW, I can not "prove" something can not be done. Only you can prove that can be done.

-----------------------

Just after post I find that I may misquoting "Stop talking smack and prove it" again. May be you want me prove I am a programmer. I can tell you I am here is because I am only a moder of this game not this game programmer (That's why I am angery to these programmers). I have no interesting to prove I am a programmer. And if I am "the" game programmer I will not be here just like all others I am angery with.

Last edited by wdq4587; 08-16-2008 at 08:41 PM.
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Old 08-16-2008, 08:44 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wdq4587
I will not talk more. I guess I take frustrae felling from other game modding to here. The fact is all game developer will not hear you, (I know not all, I mean almost all), even they can fix the bug by changing only one line. (for example some bugs in GWX manual). If your guys don't fell limitation. That's good. continue...

My mother language is not English. So I think I really "misquoting" some posts. I apologize for that. But I don't back my word about most irish1958's hope can not be implement by just modding.

Then about "hacker", I may using a wrong word. May be should called cracker. But any way I not mean the man who only changes the data files. So I am not mean any of you. I only mean the man who change the program code, mostly by disassemble.

BTW, I can not "prove" something can not be done. Only you can prove that can be done.
Apology accepted mate. This is the hardest working group of modders that I've ever been a part of, and nothing is deemed impossible until all possibilities are exhausted. So when someone talks about an idea, almost everyone will lend help or ideas, and I'd say at least 90% of the time the community gets a mod out of it.

Anyway, I've been looking into this during my breaks from skinning today, I'll let anyone know if I come up with anything useful.
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Old 08-16-2008, 08:50 PM   #24
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I think you missed the key statement.
You proclaim it can not be done unless hacked or cracked.
Again, you offend me with those terms.

You admit you have nothing to offer this thread.
Aside from negative, uninformed opinion.
Spend sometime studing the files Mate.

Then PM me and show me something I don't know!
I spend at lest 5 hours a day studing the files!

I talk from what I know are fact!!
No presumtions!
FACTS!!
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Old 08-17-2008, 09:31 AM   #25
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Thanks, Privateer for your support.
I did not mean to start an argument or flame war. I suspect the negative comments are really language and translation problems and not hostility. I have given up trying to express myself in other languages because I can't express my thoughts in any way resembling what I am thinking, and might even give offense because of my misunderstanding of the idiom.
I admire those who can do it.
I am a physician and while playing the game for enjoyment on a long patrol lasting a couple of months, I was struck on how unrealistic it was concerning health and injury, and what an useless idiot the medic was. If real life were like this, I would have to make my living somehow else and medicine would be my hobby.
So I started playing around with the files and contacted some people about this project. I was told when the files were changed, the game reverted them to normal when the game loaded at the start of a patrol. So I thought that is OK since you wouldn't start a patrol with half your crew throwing up, or with three of your officers disabled.
So I messed around with the saved game files and the menu files and found out I could have all sorts of disasters, accidents, illnesses and mishaps happen when the saved game loaded. I also found that the medic had a real function, not implemented in the game. And if he were not on board the patrol would be impossible to complete successfully.

These added uncertainties and complexities would make the game more enjoyable for me. Not knowing anything about programming, I thought it might be simple to write a program to write to these two files when the saved game loaded. I had no idea it would be so difficult, and I apologize to those skillful in this art.

I suggest we lock this thread and move on.
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Old 08-17-2008, 11:51 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irish1958
Thanks, Privateer for your support.
I did not mean to start an argument or flame war. I suspect the negative comments are really language and translation problems and not hostility. I have given up trying to express myself in other languages because I can't express my thoughts in any way resembling what I am thinking, and might even give offense because of my misunderstanding of the idiom.
I admire those who can do it.
I am a physician and while playing the game for enjoyment on a long patrol lasting a couple of months, I was struck on how unrealistic it was concerning health and injury, and what an useless idiot the medic was. If real life were like this, I would have to make my living somehow else and medicine would be my hobby.
So I started playing around with the files and contacted some people about this project. I was told when the files were changed, the game reverted them to normal when the game loaded at the start of a patrol. So I thought that is OK since you wouldn't start a patrol with half your crew throwing up, or with three of your officers disabled.
So I messed around with the saved game files and the menu files and found out I could have all sorts of disasters, accidents, illnesses and mishaps happen when the saved game loaded. I also found that the medic had a real function, not implemented in the game. And if he were not on board the patrol would be impossible to complete successfully.

These added uncertainties and complexities would make the game more enjoyable for me. Not knowing anything about programming, I thought it might be simple to write a program to write to these two files when the saved game loaded. I had no idea it would be so difficult, and I apologize to those skillful in this art.

I suggest we lock this thread and move on.
I vote not to lock it. Irish, you had a good idea mate, let's see where it goes. There's no need to get discouraged just because WDQ said it couldn't be done. Privateer is an expert with those files, and I'm sure he's been looking through them to see what is possible.
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Old 10-24-2008, 01:15 PM   #27
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I think this idea sounds interesting, and I have been iching for a new small scale programming project. I offer to do what I can.

I am curious, has no one attempted trainer activity on SH3? One could change the data in game, while it is running if we new the memory addresses for the crew health, no? That would be even more interesting, though far, far more complicated.

Also, I thought that the crew could get injured, but not damaged when hit by machine guns. I seems like I have had crew injured and then healed on patrol before. They got the wounded badge for their trouble.

I keep thinking I've done some of the things folks say arn't possible in game. I sure hope my imagination is not taking over my virtual uboat world.
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Old 10-24-2008, 03:35 PM   #28
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U-boat Exhaust Smoke

Water Streams Mod

Lifeboats and Debris

There's three mods for you that were once considered impossible or too complex to attempt.

Nothing is impossible with modifying this game. The only limits are how much time and effort you're willing to expend to create a mod.

All legal questions aside while making an academic point, even a complex program like SH3 has a finite amount of data and code that can be studied and altered in a finite amount of time.

If you're dedicated (or crazy) enough to learn the skills and tools required, then your will and imagination are all you will need to create any type of mod.

So I encourage any of you that wish to mod this game to jump in and try whatever you can think of!

I look forward to giving my medic something better to do than Hygiene Inspection!

Now get to work, irish1958!


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Old 10-24-2008, 06:58 PM   #29
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Just a shot in the dark - could SH3 Commander be used and add it as part of the sabotage/malfunctions function?
Maybe if JScones makes one of his infrequent visits he can advise us.
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Old 10-25-2008, 05:41 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wreford-Brown
Just a shot in the dark - could SH3 Commander be used and add it as part of the sabotage/malfunctions function?
Maybe if JScones makes one of his infrequent visits he can advise us.
Irish raised this with me many months ago.

Despite what people like wdg4587 will have you believe, what Irish wants to achieve is deceptively simple to do...but not via SH3Cmdr's sabotage/malfunctions feature.

A simple interface driven by a data file containing Irish's formulae is all that would be needed. The downside is the requirement to save and exit SH3 mid-patrol, which is one of the main reasons why I declined to pursue inclusion in SH3Cmdr: IMHO I can't see many players saving and exiting SH3 just to benefit from this feature. Although, if Irish found a satisfactory alternative to indicate a problem that utilised one of the save files rather than *_menu.txt, at least SH3 would not need to be exited, just the career.

IIRC Irish has already prepared most/all the rules, so at the most basic level all it needs is someone with time (ie not me) and programming 101 skills to build a simple interface that through user interaction finds the right files, generates a few random numbers, performs a few calculations based on the generated numbers and Irish's rules, and writes the results to the right files.

It could be run manually before SH3Cmdr is run, or if renamed to "SH3Weather.exe", it could be run by SH3Cmdr *instead* of SH3Weather.

Ultimately, it's just down to whether anyone thinks the return is worth the investment...
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