SUBSIM Radio Room Forums


SUBSIM: The Web's #1 BBS for all submarine and naval simulations since 1997

Go Back   SUBSIM Radio Room Forums > General > General Topics
Forget password? Reset here

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-12-2018, 09:45 AM   #1
Rockstar
Silent Hunter
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Restaurant at the end of the universe
Posts: 4,721
Downloads: 4
Uploads: 0


Default Out of Africa?

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/s...oanthropology/

Quote:
Modern humans' distant relatives left Africa earlier than previously thought—rewriting a key chapter in humankind's epic prequel, according to a discovery unveiled on Wednesday in Nature.
It doesn't make sense, decades ago they hyped the story which say humanoids left the supposed well spring of life called Africa 60,000 thousand years ago. But now they find tools in China dating back 2 million years ago. Wouldn't the tools found in China and Pakistan suggest humanoids may have originated from someplace other than Africa?
__________________


“The statistical probability that organic structures and the most precisely harmonized reactions that typify living organisms would be generated by accident, is zero.” - Rockstar
Rockstar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2018, 10:58 AM   #2
Skybird
Soaring
 
Skybird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: the mental asylum named Germany
Posts: 26,939
Downloads: 8
Uploads: 0


Default

I cannot prove it, by I sometimes "feel" that history indeed just runs in cycles - cycles spanning eons and being much longer than what we could imagine possible.

But then I think the whole universe cannot be like our senses tell us it is. Because that only tells us how our senses work, how our brains sorts all that into its own order, and we cannot really know about what and how things really are. For that we would need to overcome ourselves, or better: our selfs.

We do not find realities, maybe, not ophysical realities, and not historical ones (and the latter are not real and are just imaginatiosn anyway). We invent our idea of how things are - or have been.

And why not, as long as pool billiard nevertheless works according to Newtonian physics. I mean, they work well enough for that purpose.
Skybird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2018, 11:11 AM   #3
Rockstar
Silent Hunter
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Restaurant at the end of the universe
Posts: 4,721
Downloads: 4
Uploads: 0


Default

When evolutionists can tell show me at what point did a mere piece of matter become a conscience animated being I will be interested in what they have to say.

Reading things like this article just tells me they are more interested in defending their egos and funding than exploring other possibilities. Just think how much the Smithsonian alone has invested in all those displays. They cant afford to entertain other ideas.
__________________


“The statistical probability that organic structures and the most precisely harmonized reactions that typify living organisms would be generated by accident, is zero.” - Rockstar

Last edited by Rockstar; 07-12-2018 at 11:26 AM.
Rockstar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2018, 11:14 AM   #4
Dowly
.
 
Dowly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Finland
Posts: 23,718
Downloads: 23
Uploads: 0


Default

Dowly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2018, 11:22 AM   #5
Mr Quatro
Ocean Warrior
 
Mr Quatro's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 2,635
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0


Default

I can't really understand who 'they' are ... all I know is that 'they' have been telling me what 'they' think for a long time now, but 'they' aren't always right, so I think 'they' should have their own web page where 'they' can explain what 'they' think and leave us normal people alone.
__________________
pla•teau \pla-ˈtō, ˈpla-\ noun
a relatively stable level, period,
or condition a level of attainment
or achievement

Lord help me get to the next plateau ..


Mr Quatro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2018, 11:33 AM   #6
Rockstar
Silent Hunter
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Restaurant at the end of the universe
Posts: 4,721
Downloads: 4
Uploads: 0


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dowly View Post

How did the writer conclude the 2 million year old tools found in China really are from immigrants that latest evidence suggest left Africa 60,000 years ago? Where did he get the idea that to force the theory to fit these African immigrants MUST have left earlier than latest evidence indicates or first thought? All I'm saying is the article doesn't make sense TOO ME.

Wouldn't the latest discovery in China make the writer think just for a moment of the possibility that maybe, just maybe East Asia or another location other than Africa may be the well spring of life? Hence my remark how places like the Smithsonian cant afford to entertain other ideas.

Do you have opinion thought or idea on the matter?
__________________


“The statistical probability that organic structures and the most precisely harmonized reactions that typify living organisms would be generated by accident, is zero.” - Rockstar
Rockstar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2018, 11:40 AM   #7
Dowly
.
 
Dowly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Finland
Posts: 23,718
Downloads: 23
Uploads: 0


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockstar View Post
Do you have opinion thought or idea on the matter?
None. I was replying to your second post.
Dowly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2018, 12:00 PM   #8
Rockstar
Silent Hunter
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Restaurant at the end of the universe
Posts: 4,721
Downloads: 4
Uploads: 0


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dowly View Post
None. I was replying to your second post.

Oh, I see. Desiring to hear evolutionists explain how a mere piece of matter became a conscience animated being is a low I.Q. question? Or was it my opinion they are more interested in protecting ego and funds than entertaining other ideas. Such as the possibility Africa may not be the cradle of humankind?
__________________


“The statistical probability that organic structures and the most precisely harmonized reactions that typify living organisms would be generated by accident, is zero.” - Rockstar
Rockstar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2018, 12:42 PM   #9
Sailor Steve
Jammin' Again
 
Sailor Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: High in the mountains of Utah
Posts: 49,776
Downloads: 605
Uploads: 249


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockstar View Post
It doesn't make sense, decades ago they hyped the story which say humanoids left the supposed well spring of life called Africa 60,000 thousand years ago. But now they find tools in China dating back 2 million years ago. Wouldn't the tools found in China and Pakistan suggest humanoids may have originated from someplace other than Africa?
It makes perfect sense if you read the article carefully. The toolmakers in question are referred to as "...our ancient cousins—hominins..." The 60,000 year date is for modern humans - Homo Sapiens.
__________________
“Integrity is doing the right thing when you don't have to – when no one else is looking or will ever know – when there will be no congratulations or recognition for having done so.”
—Charles Marshall, Shattering The Glass Slipper



Sailor Steve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2018, 01:02 PM   #10
Sailor Steve
Jammin' Again
 
Sailor Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: High in the mountains of Utah
Posts: 49,776
Downloads: 605
Uploads: 249


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockstar View Post
When evolutionists can tell show me at what point did a mere piece of matter become a conscience animated being I will be interested in what they have to say.
This shows me that you don't really understand what the Theory of Evolution is about. "Evolutionists" study how life changes, not how it originated. Any good scientist lives with the constant awareness that today's pet theory might become tomorrow's laughingstock. The purpose is to discover and try to explain how things work. They know they might be wrong, but for today all any dedicated scientist can do is look at the evidence and attempt to discover what offers the best explanation.

Quote:
Reading things like this article just tells me they are more interested in defending their egos and funding than exploring other possibilities. Just think how much the Smithsonian alone has invested in all those displays. They cant afford to entertain other ideas.
What other possibilities would you have them explore? What you don't seem to grasp is that the scientist who discovers they've all been wrong all these years isn't going to lose anything. He or She rather will lauded, honored and respected, given a Nobel Prize and all that. Scientists live to find new things, not to defend their egos. Well, yes, ego would have a lot to do with it, but it would be the pride of changing the way we look at the world, not the covering up of treasured beliefs.
__________________
“Integrity is doing the right thing when you don't have to – when no one else is looking or will ever know – when there will be no congratulations or recognition for having done so.”
—Charles Marshall, Shattering The Glass Slipper



Sailor Steve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2018, 01:06 PM   #11
Sailor Steve
Jammin' Again
 
Sailor Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: High in the mountains of Utah
Posts: 49,776
Downloads: 605
Uploads: 249


Default

As for Africa being the starting point, you could find out everything you wanted to know about it, if you were really interested. This is only the tip of the iceberg, but it's a good starting point, especially the section on "Mitochondrial Haplogroups".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recent..._modern_humans
__________________
“Integrity is doing the right thing when you don't have to – when no one else is looking or will ever know – when there will be no congratulations or recognition for having done so.”
—Charles Marshall, Shattering The Glass Slipper



Sailor Steve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2018, 03:00 PM   #12
Dowly
.
 
Dowly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Finland
Posts: 23,718
Downloads: 23
Uploads: 0


Default

Your (Rockstar) signature quote is also wrong.


https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Ilya_P...#Misattributed
Dowly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2018, 03:44 PM   #13
Rhodes
Time Lord
 
Rhodes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Figueira da Foz, Portugal
Posts: 4,135
Downloads: 66
Uploads: 0


Default




Out of Africa was something that I was hit in the head since 2000. At least with the Piltdown Man, it was simple. It was him and period, because, shut up!


Our Genus - Homo, is now dated to 2 million years BC. 60.000 years is our kind Homo Sapiens, as Steve refered and even that can be debatable with Homo Sapiens Sapiens or Homo Sapiens Arcaicus - that I think it is not use any more.

The appearance of our species had or has the Out of Africa theory or the "multispot" theory - the modern man appears in several places, not only in Africa, but middle east and near Orient, I think. I am talking about memory and from classes almost 10 years ago, I had to have human evolution again in my master degree.
Human Evolution study is tricky, my idea is that many of the investigators want their name writing in history in finding the so call missing link, even if that will be impossible.

I remember listening to my teacher that it is possible the finest in the area here in Portugal and she told in one conference of the matter why no one talked about the Tomai mandible that had been discovered that year (I think). The answer was simple, the Leakey family didn't acknowledge that find and since they were the hosts of the conference, no one would dare to talk about it, during the expositions of ideas.

And many times, new taxa are created because the enamel of the teeth is more tick than the other one that is species X, so this has to be a new one and so on.

So thats why I prefer to study modern (homo sapiens sapiens) skeletons, at least it is only one specie and everything is equal to the other, in a broad sense...
Rhodes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2018, 12:29 PM   #14
Rockstar
Silent Hunter
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Restaurant at the end of the universe
Posts: 4,721
Downloads: 4
Uploads: 0


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailor Steve View Post
This shows me that you don't really understand what the Theory of Evolution is about. "Evolutionists" study how life changes, not how it originated. Any good scientist lives with the constant awareness that today's pet theory might become tomorrow's laughingstock. The purpose is to discover and try to explain how things work. They know they might be wrong, but for today all any dedicated scientist can do is look at the evidence and attempt to discover what offers the best explanation.

What other possibilities would you have them explore? What you don't seem to grasp is that the scientist who discovers they've all been wrong all these years isn't going to lose anything. He or She rather will lauded, honored and respected, given a Nobel Prize and all that. Scientists live to find new things, not to defend their egos. Well, yes, ego would have a lot to do with it, but it would be the pride of changing the way we look at the world, not the covering up of treasured beliefs.
What do you mean they study how life changes, biology changes every day but I'm not evolving into a something else, I'm just getting older. Don't evolusionists attempt to expound upon the observations of a 22 year old man of how homo sapiens evolved from apes? Wouldn't it be better to say Evolusionists study... evolution?

I see the same similarities as Darwinists do. But to jump to the conclusion that similarities is evidence of a common ancestry isnt evidence, no matter how elaborate and colorful an artists rendition of a humanities family tree may be. Evolustionist have not found one iota of evidence which shows the ever illusive 'inbetween'. Yet there are drawings of invertebrate species having all of its hard parts on the outside evolving into a fish which has all of its hard parts on the inside. But absolutley nothing inbetween.

There is another possibility that other possibility is design. Modern day science and discoveries in DNA has arrived. Darwinism predicted that most of our DNA is just useless junk left over from a blind process of trial-and-error. Design theorists predictedthat most junk DNA would prove to have function. And as DNA research has discovered it is not as evolusionist predicted it does have a function.

But Darwinists object to that the design hypothesis “isn’t science.” But that is what I think is called petitio principii. It’s no way to advance knowledge. Science shouldn't be rigged it MUST be about seeking truth and evidence. Hence my remark about egos and funding. Also in my world as far as honor and awards go. Science isnt different than anything else in life. Achievment and discovery is the name of the game thats what gets you recogition. Failure, even in science, gets you nothing ones legacy is simply known as the guy or gal who got it wrong.
__________________


“The statistical probability that organic structures and the most precisely harmonized reactions that typify living organisms would be generated by accident, is zero.” - Rockstar

Last edited by Rockstar; 07-14-2018 at 03:23 PM.
Rockstar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2018, 04:20 PM   #15
Sailor Steve
Jammin' Again
 
Sailor Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: High in the mountains of Utah
Posts: 49,776
Downloads: 605
Uploads: 249


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockstar View Post
What do you mean they study how life changes, biology changes every day...
I said they study how it changes, i.e. the process itself. Evolution does not involve how life came to be in the first place. That's another field of study altogether.

Quote:
...but I'm not evolving into a something else, I'm just getting older.
Actually you are. No, individuals don't change, not even into other individuals. That said, every child we have is different, as different genes take precedence. Every child inherits traits from both parents, which is why my dad had perfect eyesight but I inherited my mom's nearsightedness. With each child there is a chance of mutations, some of which can kill the individual, and some can be beneficial, with most doing nothing at all.

Quote:
Don't evolusionists attempt to expound upon the observations of a 22 year old man of how homo sapiens evolved from apes? Wouldn't it be better to say Evolusionists study... evolution?
That's exactly what they do study, in the field and in the lab, every day. I'm not sure what you're talking about here. Are you saying that every scientist who uses evolution to create new medicines to fight the new strains of bacteria and viruses that have evolved do so solely by reading Darwin's books?

Quote:
I see the same similarities as Darwinists do. But to jump to the conclusion that similarities is evidence of a common ancestry isnt evidence, no matter how elaborate and colorful an artists rendition of a humanities family tree may be.
They didn't just "jump to the conclusion". The study has been conducted by large numbers of scientists over a great many years. Neanderthals were a separate species who coexisted with early modern humans until they died out around 40,000 years ago. Around 400 Neanderthal skeletons have been found, enough to verify that they were more than just a handful of individuals who happened to look like that. There is ongoing discussion within scientific circles, with some arguing that these were just a subspecies and that the two could interbreed, and others arguing for a completely different species having pretty much nothing to do with modern humans. Either way, there is sufficient evidence to believe that these were a separate line of development.

If you want to argue that these were also "designed" you first need to show why they are never mentioned anywhere in any ancient books.

Quote:
Evolustionist have not found one iota of evidence which shows the ever illusive 'inbetween'. Yet there are drawings of invertebrate species having all of its hard parts on the outside evolving into a fish which has all of its hard parts on the inside. But absolutley nothing inbetween.
Oh, let's start with whales and dolphins. A great many skeletons exist that are recognizably whales, but with the nostrils at the end of the snout, just like pretty much all land mammals. there are whale skeletons found in higher layers with nostrils halfway up the snout, and of course there are later whales with the current blowhole on top of the head. It's pretty obvious that there are older whale-like skeletons found with legs. The front flippers of whales and dolphins, unlike fish, actually still have five finger bones.

I've heard apologists argue for their ideas on what the Bible says using scientific terms like "best explanatory value" while ignoring that phrase when it concerns evolution. The simple fact is that evolution offers the best explanation for what we find in nature, which is why scientists almost universally accept it. It's not "belief", it's simply that nothing with better explanatory value has come along. It's possible that something might, but until then nothing else explains what we've found anywhere near as well.

Quote:
There is another possibility that other possibility is design. Modern day science and discoveries in DNA has arrived. Darwinism predicted that most of our DNA is just junk left over from a blind process of trial-and-error. Intelligent design theorists predictedthat most “junk DNA” would prove to have function. Score one for the design hypothesis.
First, Darwin never heard of DNA, so saying "Darwinism" predicted something about it is a diversion. Second, where in any scientific literature does anything like what you described occur? Yes, I've read the Answers In Genesis articles too. It's interesting that while scientists who actually work in that field change their positions from time to time (scientists are in the business of discovery, so they necessarily do that a lot), and yet the "Design" people, who don't contribute to the science at all, use that course of discovery to claim that since scientists don't always agree and since they change their minds with new discoveries, then "Design" must be true.

Quote:
But Darwinists object to that the design hypothesis “isn’t science.” But that is what IO think is called petitio principii. It’s no way to advance knowledge. Science shouldn't be rigged it MUST be about seeking truth and evidence. Hence my remark about egos and funding. Also in my world as far as honor and awards go. Science isnt different than anything else in life. Achievment and discovery is the name of the game thats what gets you recogition. Failure, even in science, gets you nothing.
That's because it isn't science. Proponents of ID contribute nothing to the advancement of scientific knowledge. Their "hypothesis" is based not on scientific study of any kind but in trying to justify their belief in ancient religious texts that say nothing about the subject at hand. You used "petitio principii" where the simple English "begging the question" would have sufficed. ID proponents (who used to call themselves "Creationists" until that received so much ridicule they had to change the name and pretend it was something else) start from the premise that there is a Designer and work backwards from there. That is a classic textbook example of "petitio principii". As if that wasn't enough, they seem to have the mindset that if they can prove one thing about Evolution to be flawed then their "hypothesis" must be right. "I don't understand, therefore God." (Another classic fallacy, the "Argument from Ignorance.") ID "science" isn't about "seeking truth and evidence", it's about trying to prove that their Religious beliefs are real and nothing more. They don't care about science at all.
__________________
“Integrity is doing the right thing when you don't have to – when no one else is looking or will ever know – when there will be no congratulations or recognition for having done so.”
—Charles Marshall, Shattering The Glass Slipper



Sailor Steve is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:17 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 1995- 2018 Subsim