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Old 01-04-11, 03:21 PM   #811
Myxale
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An sensible post LGN.
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Old 01-04-11, 05:23 PM   #812
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Question: Is it correct that only Types VII and IX had external torpedoes? If so, there is a little chance that I can model inflooding water / dead crewmen if one dives during reload of external torpedoes.
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Old 01-05-11, 01:26 AM   #813
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Yeah. Only the the type 7 and 9 did have externals. Type 2 was to tiny form that.
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Old 01-05-11, 03:01 AM   #814
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@Myxale: Nice to know that only VII and IX uses external torps. Makes things much easier.

@ALL: Another question/problem:

Imagine the following situation: Crew is currently reloading externals and watch crew sees an enemy warship or aircraft. In this case the player has to alert the crew to hurry up or cancel the reloading process in order to dive rapidly.

This reqires a new system-command, say, "CANCEL_RELOAD" (and a little state machine).

This can be programmed in 2 different ways:

1) Overload/Abuse an existing command, e.g. the first pressing of the crash-dive button "C" could be interpreted as "CANCEL_RELOAD", and all subsequent pressing of "C" key then are interpreted as crash-dive.

2) Use/abuse a so far unused system-command like "WA_report_damage" (see Commands_en.cfg). With a little edit of Commands_en.cfg this new command CANCEL_RELOAD could be assigned its own key like "Ctrl-C", and even it's own menu button in a GUI.

I personally prefer solution 2, although it requires a little edit in Commands_en.cfg (solution 1 doesn't reqire that, but does require more assembler programming).

My question is: Is this command "WA_report_damage" in Commands_en.cfg really unused so far??

I tried to trigger it, but I saw no reaction of the game on this command.......seems to be a command that was planned by the devs but never finished...

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Old 01-05-11, 09:47 AM   #815
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Is it possible to make the torepedo get lost in the diving process once transfer has begun? If its going to take 10 minutes to get the torpedo back into the container or 2 minutes to dump it overboard (which would let you dive a lot faster) I don't think crews would think twice about dumping them overboard if it meant life or death.
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Old 01-05-11, 11:23 AM   #816
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I don't know for sure, but I can't imagine that it was possible to dump the torpedo quickly It's quite heavy and IIRC the crane was quite small and could not be used to throw a torpedo over board easily. Two minutes seems to me much too short.

Anyway, I guess modeling all the reloading stuff realistically is just impossible. Far too many unknown issues.

I think it would be already fine if you could not dive during reloading (at least during most of the time). This would already force players to play realistically, i.e., only reloading torpedoes if there was no danger (as it was done in real life). If you get caught, well, bad luck.

Does anyone know whether a boat was ever caught during reloading of external torpedoes in the war?

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Old 01-05-11, 11:30 AM   #817
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@Tessa: Not possible ATM but it's maybe worth to be tested. I tried other things in the meantime. The problem is: We don't have the necessary dialog elements for telling the crew what to do: Drop torps over board or not. We are about to add new stuff to the game......that was not my intention .

It is alluring to add new stuff like that. But code gets more and more complex - no more solid - that's the problem.

So I have to concentrate on the most important things:

1) No reloading of externals (and internals) during storm (easy to do).

2) Program a certain delay time (2-12 minutes, depending on reload progress), during which

2a) Diving is not possible (dive-commands simply disabled) OR

2b) The player gets huge penalty (flooding, dead crew) when he orders to dive in that time.

I don't know if it's worth the effort to program lost torpedoes, since I don't know whether this situation did happen in RL.
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Old 01-05-11, 11:40 AM   #818
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Hi h.sie,

I think 2a) is fine enough. It forces the player to play realistically and penalizes him if he has bad luck (hits by destroyer, plane,...)

2b) sounds far more complicated and difficult. Possible questions are: How many crew member should die/get injured? How much flooding should happen? Can you close the hatch when submerged? Would a real Kaleun give the order to dive if the hatch is not closed? Just far too many open questions for my taste.

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Old 01-05-11, 11:52 AM   #819
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@LGN1: I agree, 2b) is more complicated. And I currently don't have a lot of choices. I could set the flooding-counter of the torpedo room to a randomly chosen value between 10% and 90%, but the boat does not even sink and the crew fastly pumps out the water. This is no penalty. But if I set the flooding counter to 100%, the game is over. Not nice. Only chance: Set the flooding counter to exactly 99%. This kills all crew in the compartment and makes it impossible to pump out the water, since no-one can go into that compartment - it's isolated, but the game does not end. This is the only penalty I can offer ATM - which could force the player not to dive and play realistic. But why simulate such a situation which a real kaleun would never choose?
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Old 01-05-11, 12:15 PM   #820
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@Stiebler: I found the diving tank of the Sub. It's 32-Bit-Float. Surfaced it's empty (0,0), if you dive, the value slowly rises to full (1,0). If sub is submerged and you immediately set the tank to 0,0 the sub jumps out of the water. Turbo.

IMHO, this is a much better starting point for modelling negative buoyancy depending on silent-running. I could give you more infos if you want to do some experiments on your own.

And maybe somewhere there is the crash-dive-blues bug located??

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Old 01-05-11, 12:35 PM   #821
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Quote:
Originally Posted by h.sie View Post
@Tessa: Not possible ATM but it's maybe worth to be tested. I tried other things in the meantime. The problem is: We don't have the necessary dialog elements for telling the crew what to do: Drop torps over board or not. We are about to add new stuff to the game......that was not my intention .

It is alluring to add new stuff like that. But code gets more and more complex - no more solid - that's the problem.

So I have to concentrate on the most important things:

1) No reloading of externals (and internals) during storm (easy to do).

2) Program a certain delay time (2-12 minutes, depending on reload progress), during which

2a) Diving is not possible (dive-commands simply disabled) OR

2b) The player gets huge penalty (flooding, dead crew) when he orders to dive in that time.

I don't know if it's worth the effort to program lost torpedoes, since I don't know whether this situation did happen in RL.
From a book of mine that has some pictures of torpedo transfers, this pic was talking about boat to boat transfers, but the same underlying message is the same:

"Torpedo transfer on the high seas, here U-154 supplies a spare eel to U-564. As can be readily seen, such operations required large numbers on deck, the erection of winches and hoists and the opening of most hatches, an extremely vulnerable condition. Neither boat would be able to dive if discovered by air or sea search. Such scenes, of necessity, became less and less common as the war proceeded"

Though this is describing transfer between boats, all the same equipment needed to move from your own boat's external capsules into the torpedo rooms would still need to be out. IF a captain were to have crash dived as he saw a pair of B-24 on the horizon he would have to leave the hatches open and close the bulkheads to both torpedo compartments, which would flood them 100% until you could safely surface, put the gear away and close all the hatches, then pump all the water out. Would have been a good chance of damage to the deck and gear, and potentially drowning sailors on the deck if the captain is impatient or the bombers and getting too close to wait for everyone to get back inside.

I would go with option 2B, will look into some incidents I've recently read about of aircraft getting the jump on lazy crews to see what their fate and casualties were.
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Old 01-05-11, 12:36 PM   #822
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Quote:
Originally Posted by h.sie View Post
@Stiebler: I found the diving tank of the Sub. It's 32-Bit-Float. Surfaced it's empty (0,0), if you dive, the value slowly rises to full (1,0). If sub is submerged and you immediately set the tank to 0,0 the sub jumps out of the water. Turbo.

IMHO, this is a much better starting point for modelling negative buoyancy depending on silent-running. I could give you more infos if you want to do some experiments on your own.

And maybe somewhere there is the crash-dive-blues bug located??

h.sie
Great news, h.sie. Do you see any difference when ordering crash dive and ordering a regular dive?
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Old 01-05-11, 12:52 PM   #823
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Quote:
Originally Posted by h.sie View Post
@LGN1: I agree, 2b) is more complicated. And I currently don't have a lot of choices. I could set the flooding-counter of the torpedo room to a randomly chosen value between 10% and 90%, but the boat does not even sink and the crew fastly pumps out the water. This is no penalty. But if I set the flooding counter to 100%, the game is over. Not nice. Only chance: Set the flooding counter to exactly 99%. This kills all crew in the compartment and makes it impossible to pump out the water, since no-one can go into that compartment - it's isolated, but the game does not end. This is the only penalty I can offer ATM - which could force the player not to dive and play realistic. But why simulate such a situation which a real kaleun would never choose?
Most of the torpedo crew is going to be on the deck (which can't be mirrored in the game granted) during the transfer. You're at a point where it will take 10-15 minutes to safely stow the gear and close the hatches. During this period you were pretty much be immobile. You see 2 B-24's ~5000m away. In 3-5 minutes those bombers will be in range to drop as much as 8000 lbs of bombs on you (per bomber), situation looks pretty fatal to the u-boat caught with its pants down.

In those 3-5 minutes most of the men could either move from the torpedo compartments into the adjacent ones closing the bulkhead, and the crew on top jump into through the tower. The bilge pumps will keep the flooding somewhat under control but never enough to clear the compartment. The volume and speed in which the water enters thse compartments would be enought to scuttle a ship if they opened up all the compartments in a matter of minutes. Unless they're hit by a bomb the pumps should be enough to keep those compartments at 80%-90% full but never reaching 100% unless there is further damage.
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Old 01-05-11, 02:13 PM   #824
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@H.sie:
Quote:
@Stiebler: I found the diving tank of the Sub. It's 32-Bit-Float. Surfaced it's empty (0,0), if you dive, the value slowly rises to full (1,0). If sub is submerged and you immediately set the tank to 0,0 the sub jumps out of the water. Turbo.

IMHO, this is a much better starting point for modelling negative buoyancy depending on silent-running. I could give you more infos if you want to do some experiments on your own.
Great work, H.sie. Yes please, I'd like to see if I can achieve anything from there.
Perhaps you can publish it in this thread, or send me a PM.
Many thanks,

Stiebler.
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Old 01-05-11, 03:28 PM   #825
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@Stiebler:

Procedure to locate memory position of diving tank:

1) Surface

2) Set Breakpoint at Sh3Sim.act + 0x8527

3) Order Dive

4) Routine in 2) now tries to write to two memory locations, using register ECX as pointer. One of the memory position is the diving tank. The other maybe controls the depth rudder (not intensively tested).

I don't know if that could help to fix the crash dive blues.

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