Realism- and gameplay-related hardcode fixes for SH3.EXE

[Stiebler]

Regarding Lost BdU messages:

I think the current situation is OK.
Lost messages are a nuisance, but not very serious.

Stiebler.

[Rubini]

Hi h.sie,

After (only) two sessions using the single wolfpack mission i have some comments and questions.
Hopes that all the (long) list below can be usefull in make this brilliant mod yet better.
First of all, all runned ok, without problems or ctds; in the two sessions I get wolfpack attacks, the amount of lost messages was small (perhaps 25-30%). I runned it on a self made big mod ...I mean, a very heavy modded stock installation!


-Below Some questions/comments (excuse me if some of the below are already replied here):

1.For 8km players isn´t that easy to shadowing for long time without being detected sometimes...then you must dive an go out...finishing losing contact for some times.

2.So, seems that when I lose contact for some time (more than a hour) the BDU was "reseted"...is this true or just a wrong feel? By this reason (I think) in one session the wolf pack attack started almost in morning, the sky was already lighted...

3. If it can be reseted it´s possible to try another pack after have received the message "attack alone" just trying to lose contact for some hours and then restabilishing contact with convoy and BDU?

4.Do I need to actualize&send the heading and speed in all my hour by hour contact reports?

5.I take some time to realise exactly how to send the heading direction for the convoy - needs to use the TDC bearing dial as a true bearing in manual mode...it´s really easy as soon as you figure out-...i´m commenting this because could be usefull for other players.

6.After i received the message that the pack is mounted and saying about radio silence in how many time I can expect the pack to start it´s attack? (I don´t received any message after that, so I just noticed the attack by the convoy/escort maneuvers...)

7.I know that you ask to not use the external view...well, sorry I used it....And seems that the Ai wolf units are so much hard to destroy, hijaking the escorts for so much time...it´s to be this way? Perhaps making then a bit less hard to destroy could be better to mimitize the RL wolf attacks situation? What happens if some of the Ai wolf units sink? We will have less wolf packs allowed?

8. In the same line, we have limits to ask for/be allowed for wolf packs in the same patrol?

9. And a last one: my entire crew went in fatigue because i stay so much time in real time/small TC (max 32x)...so speaking in playability, any idea on what we can adjust to avoid this (fatigue) issue or we will have to use a no fatigue mod at once?

Thanks again for this awesome mod, Sh3 forever!

Rubini.

[h.sie]

Hi Rubini,

thanks for your kind words. To answer your questions:

1) This mod wasn't intended to be easy! For real kaleuns, shadowing a convoy surely also wasn't easy. With Stieblers contact fix, shadowing now isn't that hard anymore, at least in a 16km environment. Surely you'll get some more experience by playing and shadowing. Or, use the "Less contact reports" option. Makes things much easier. Or, what about trying a 16km environment? On the other hand: If you had 2 wolfpack attacks in 2 missions, it seems to me that the Mod isn't hard enough.


2) You are wrong. Only for Time between messages > 3h you get a penalty (chance rises that wolfs won't assemble).

An attack in the morning is possible but not likely. Example: BDU decides to allow to attack at 5:30 (still dark), but attack itself occurs some time later, in the meantime sun rises. Would take some effort to prevent this. I decided not to do that. So we also have some attacks in the morning.

3) If you lost a contact, you can re-establish it, even after 6 hours. No problem. But chance rises, that it's too late for the wolfs to assemble. Depends on the time between your messages (and the random numbers chosen for that decision).

If you are once ordered to attack alone, then this situation will stay constant for some days.

4) Course and speed are not always needed by the BDU. But since you don't know when it's needed and when not, you should always send an estimation, at least of the course. Speed isn't that important, just set it to 4 - 8 knots for a standard convoy.

5) Documentation about that can be found in the 1st post of this thread.

6) This isn't a fixed time. According to my observations between 1/2 and 2 hours. Wolfpack attacks were not perfectly coordinated.

7) External camera not supported. The AI-Subs are not intended to be realistic. ONLY the damage done to the convoy was intended to be halfway realistic. If I make the AI-Subs weaker, they won't cause that amount of damage to the convoy. I like it as it is, but feel free to reduce the hitpoints and armor level in the .zon files of the AI-Subs. If one Wolf sinks, that does not affect anything important in the future.

8) There are more than 2 attacks possible per patrol.

9) I have no other idea than the following: Play with NO_FATIGUE. (Or, maybe, modify your fatigue model so that your crew doesn't starve during a chase).

Greetings,
H.Sie

[Rubini]

H.sie,

Thanks by the reply, it was very usefull for my final management and use of the mod.

- OK, i can see that the AI uboats units needs a compromise due sh3 limitations,
- I adjusted my fatigue settings,
- And I need to say: the way that you made the mod is just terrific, it give to the wolfpack a totally realistic atmosphere, the shadowing and the contact with BDU are perfect, I'm trying to imagine how you inject a so good code on the .exe, it's just amazing!

Late yesterday at night having all that new features/fixes from this mod working so well, I found a convoy into my campaign, get a successfull wolfpack and then resupply at a U-tanker (with this mod too), ...wow...SH3 is really my best game! It's a very solid game! Kudos to you and Stiebler!
BDU insist in give you two a medal, a golden one!

PS: about the lost messages frequency: for my taste it's ok, perhaps a small adjust based on the war time like you said previously could be enough.

[h.sie]

Hi Rubini,

I am glad you like the mod, despite his weak points - since I hesitate very much to touch & change it again. I must admit that I'm tired of wolfpacks coding and that I've come to my personal limits now - regarding code complexity and time effort.

The wolfpack mod seems to work stable in principle and my only work left to do for V16A is to find out, whether a reported CTD is caused by my code or not. If so, I'll fix that bug.

Maybe for V16B, I'll do some fine-adjustments for the wolfpacks, like reducing the chance of lost messages depending on time period and so on.

In the meantime: Happy hunting!

H.Sie

[urfisch]

you´ve done great stuff and a revolutionary improvement to the game and for the community here, h.sie. everybody can be grateful for this. i guess many, if not all (me incl.), never exspected such a mod to come.



so: have a break, have a ship sunk!

[SquareSteelBar]

Originally Posted by urfisch

...have a ship sunk!...

It's your part, jimbuna:

...

[Flyingsub]

H.Si. The mod is running well in the WAC mod I just installed. Thanks again for all the hard work......Now get out of those wet rags and take a rest

[h.sie]

@ALL_TESTERS:

What is your opinion about the current synchronisation of the attack?
In the current solution, the time between

- BDU orders wolfspack attack and
- the start of the attack

varies between about 30 minutes and 2 hours. This morning I had an idea for an additional and better(?) synchronization mechanism: As soon as one of the Wolfs visually detects one ship of the convoy, it could trigger a message "Wolfpack leader @ all Uboats: Konvoi sighted. Prepare for attack" or similar. The attack itself will begin about 5-10 minutes after this message.

My personal opinion:

- Advantage: Better synchronization of attack. More foolproof.

- Disadvantage: Some uncertainty will get lost, because after 2-3 missions, you'll know that 5 minutes after that message the attack will begin.

Hmmmmmmm?

Opinions welcome.

[Stiebler]

As far as one of the Wolfs visually detects one ship of the convoy, it could send a message "Konvoi sighted. Starting attack".

That would be both useful to the player and completely realistic - U-boats did make signals to say they had gained contact. (How else would BdU know when to signal the attack should start?).

Stiebler.

Originally Posted by Stiebler

That would be both useful to the player and completely realistic - U-boats did make signals to say they had gained contact. (How else would BdU know when to signal the attack should start?).

Stiebler.

Not exactly, BDU could collect a group of wolfpack, by daily position reports of all u-boats. After the very first u-boat spots a convoy it has to send course,speed and current location of the convoy as well as approximet number of ships. Then BDU announces which u-boats are the participants of the wolfpack, BDU sets an interception point and time (by given info of shadowing u-boat) so that the farest u-boat could reach it in time before the whole battle begins. Adjustmens of the interception point changed if the convoy changed it's course, self explanatory. If any u-boat could not make it in time to reach the point (due to technical problems or so) it had to report this to BDU.

Note: There was no order from BDU to attack now or not now, but there was approximent time and location where the massacre should start.

[h.sie]

@PapaKilo: You talk about the process of shadowing, wolfpack assembly and interception. This is not in the focus here.

I assume that all Uboats already are near the convoy.

What I am talking about is only the synchronization of the attack itself.

In the game we have up to 2 hours to wait until attack begins, after BDU has ordered to attack.

This is what I want to change.

Originally Posted by h.sie

@PapaKilo: You describe the process of the wolfpack assembly and interception. This is not in the focus here.

Here I assume that Uboats already are near the convoy. What I am talking about is only the synchronization of the attack itself.

Synchronization of attack could be done only at night and before DDs gets radar system.

Say the boats are in position to strike the convoy. To give the order to attack one of the boat has to be leading one and has to be on surface to send radio signals to begin the battle..

But usualy the signal to start a battle was a first torpedo hit explosion..

Originally Posted by h.sie

@PapaKilo: You talk about the process of shadowing, wolfpack assembly and interception. This is not in the focus here.

I assume that all Uboats already are near the convoy.

What I am talking about is only the synchronization of the attack itself.

In the game we have up to 2 hours to wait until attack begins, after BDU has ordered to attack.

This is what I want to change.

Sorry, I'm not following the idea.

Why is there we have to wait 2 hours ?

[h.sie]

Originally Posted by PapaKilo

Sorry, I'm not following the idea.

Why is there we have to wait 2 hours ?

Obviously, you didn't play the mod. Those who played the mod will surely know what I'm talking about: Currently, it is possible that the first torpedo explodes 2 hours after BDU orders to attack. This is what some people don't like.