The Marriage of Microsoft and Linux - Page 3

Rockin Robbins · 09-26-16, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarracudaUAK

P.S. I forgot to mention this but, LINUX is the Kernel, it is the "Command Line". The GUI is built on top of that, so unless the 'Desktop' has gone through and made a Graphical interface for each and every program running on Linux, then some things will REQUIRE the use of the CL. Depending on how they interface with the desktop and program, they might not work with all desktops. I've had it happen before.
(Now I am running "Gnome Disk Utility" in KDE, and it works. But I've had several different versions of Fedora and a few other Distros, like, Knoppix, that the desktops were in a "transitional" phase, so using some programs designed for GNOME, etc, in KDE, didn't want to work.)

P.P.S. This had nothing to do with the OP, or M$.... hmm. I must be getting easily distractable... oh look! a squirel!

And that is where Windows went wrong. Having the command line as a base meant first of all that the command line would be healthy and robust, unlike the shriveled remains of DOS still barely breathing in the Windows Command Window. The Linux terminal is the Holy Temple of Linux, the place from which all blessings flow, the ultimate storehouse of the power that is within the operating system.

That means that you can choose your GUI. It means you can choose your file manager. It means you can choose your browser without restriction. It means a lot more freedom and a lot more possibilities for getting things done. It means that the difference between Fedora and Ubuntu is totally unimportant, as it's possible to install all the programs that make Ubuntu Ubuntu into Fedora and versa vica.

It's the reason Unity is a decent GUI now. People who didn't like it could change to something else in sixty seconds. And they could go back in 60 seconds. I have Unity, Lubuntu, LXDE, OpenBox, KDE Plasma, MATE, GNOME and others all able to be switched to in much less than a minute. Lately Ive kind of settled on Unity. It's come a vast distance since it was so terrible. Why? With the others to take up the slack, it took the pressure off Unity. They were free to innovate.

When Windows sucks (and it does) there are no alternatives but live with it or leave Windows entirely. That will never be the case with Linux.

BarracudaUAK · 09-28-16, 03:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

... I have Unity, Lubuntu, LXDE, OpenBox, KDE Plasma, MATE, GNOME and others all able to be switched to in much less than a minute.

I used to keep 2 or 3 installed, but now...

I'm currently running FGLRX video drivers so that Crossfire will work.
Unfortunately, FGLRX was configured to set-up for the primary Desktop, and it wasn't too friendly with some of them.

Until the AMDGPU kernel-side driver gets settled and the AMDGPU-PRO driver get released for Redhat/Fedora, I'm going to stick with just KDE for now.

Ohh, and so my post can be more or less on topic...

Did you know that there is a DRM in Linux?
It's the Direct Rendering Manager:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_Rendering_Manager

https://dri.freedesktop.org/wiki/DRM/

3 little letters can mean so many different things...

Of course if you ask me this question in a week and I'm not looking at my PC, I'll probably won't remember what it is. As I know I've looked it up at least 3 times in the last 2 years.

Barracuda

Skybird · 09-28-16, 04:42 AM

I just would wish that after two decades any Linux GUI finally would decide to go all the way instead of stoppig halfway, turn to the side and disappear between the bushes and trees, leaving the ordinary user behind and alone.

Cinnamon/Mint is probably the most advanced GUI for Linux - but even this can have you ending up with a need to face Terminal quite easily.

And if you are no holy priest, you do not find the entrance to this "temple" then. You end up pöaste-andcopying magicla spoeels you get form others without you knowing what you are doing there, and why. And you can end up in even deeper trouble that way.

This way, every user who was just a user under Windows, again needs to bcome a professional insider like 30 years ago. This expectation is unrealistic. In business. Amongst most gamers. In private households.

I think this is the one most dominant reason that will prevent Linux for another 20 years to keep up with Windows, Android, iOS. I mean since 20 years I get told how great Linux is and that it is about to take over. But the market share it has with users still is clearly below the 2% mark.

Instead of always breaking loose another fork and an other variation, developers should really consider to sit together and work on going all the way. It would be a first under Linux. But as long as Terminal - or however the CLI is called in different Linux derivates - becomes a necessity to use it so often and easily as it now is the case - and I say that after beign with Linux for almost tne months now - , as long I see no realistic chance that Linux will taske major shares from Windows. Peoiple will or will not turn away from Windiws, due to the W10 mess. But for the most they will not move to Linux. They move towards Android, Chrome and iOS.

Don't get me wrong, I am still with Linux and like it, and recommend to switch Windows PCs to Linux. But i do not ignore the problems that also are there. Its not all rosy in Linux land.

BarracudaUAK · 10-04-16, 05:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarracudaUAK

...

P.S. I forgot to mention this but, LINUX is the Kernel, it is the "Command Line". The GUI is built on top of that, so unless the 'Desktop' has gone through and made a Graphical interface for each and every program running on Linux, then some things will REQUIRE the use of the CL.
Depending on how they interface with the desktop and program, they might not work with all desktops.
...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

I just would wish that after two decades any Linux GUI finally would decide to go all the way instead of stoppig halfway, turn to the side and disappear between the bushes and trees, leaving the ordinary user behind and alone.

Cinnamon/Mint is probably the most advanced GUI for Linux - but even this can have you ending up with a need to face Terminal quite easily.
...

Skybird,

I can sympathize with your feelings on this, however I feel I should bring something to your attention.

In Linux, work is never duplicated. You do not need to re-code something that has already been coded.

Think of it similar to Windows using dotnet, for example.
Let's take S3D as our example program. In order to run S3D, we need to have dotnet 2.0 installed. Why? Because some of the code necessary to allow S3D to do what it does, is contained in dotnet, and this is referenced by S3D.

This allows S3D, and other programs to all access the same "code" and therefore be smaller.
Let's assume we make some new mod tools for the SH series.
We will call them:
Silent Hunter Editor, "SH-E" for Silent Hunter,
SH-E2, for Silent Hunter 2,
and so-on and so forth, so we have SH-E, SH-E2, SH-E3, SH-E4, and lastly, SH-E5.

Now if we assume that the base code is 10MB, and the databases for each game is 10MB, and the graphical interface is 5MB each.

Then each editor comes to 25MB. If we have all 5 installed, then we have 125MB of hard drive space used...

Now if we use a common "base", 10MB, and we use a common graphical interface, which includes all variations, it would be larger, about 7.5MB.

So to RUN, and USE, the editors, we have only used 17.5MB of space on the drive.
Now we have 50MB of database files, 10 for each of the 5 editors.

10MB base files,
7.5MB GUI files,
+50MB database files,
67.5MB total.

So we have just saved 57.5MB of hard drive space by NOT duplicating work.
This is what Linux does from the kernel all the way down to the widgets on your desktop telling you how much RAM you have used.

This is why MANY things in Linux do not have a GUI version. At most it will be a Graphical "front-end" for the non-graphical "back-end" program.

Check the update/install program for your distro, it probably has graphical interfaces for command line programs. Fedora has MANY of them listed. I'm sure Ubuntu/Mint will as well.

One of my biggest complaints with all windows versions, was that for a little bit of "polish" the install size jumped, for example 300MB for Win98, to ~2GB for WinXP.

When you install a new program from the package manager (forget what it is in Cinamon), notice that it tells you what "dependancies" that the program has. And asks for permission to install these.
The 'dependancies' are because the program lacks the data.

Best example I can give is this: I installed a server version of Fedora 24. No GUI, but I needed to keep the RAID 0 intact so I could copy the files to another drive.
so I installed KDE, and then tried to run it.
This FAILED MISERABLY.

Why? Because I forgot to install "X" so KDE has something to actually draw the GUI with.

This is why RR mentioned in one of the threads around here, that in a few seconds he can swap desktops.

"X" takes care of the "how to draw", the desktop takes care of the "what to draw".
No duplicating. Much less "mess".

Barracuda

P.S. As far as the need to be an expert on using Linux... Look at the bright side, learning new things help keep "some-timers" from turning into "old-timers" and eventually "all-timers"!

Skybird · 10-05-16, 05:30 AM

Your explanation depicts, in more detail, what I already believed to have understood. And I cannot argue with it. However, using Cinnamon, which is probbaly the most advanced Linux GUI out there, my point was slightly different. That is that if you come to Linux, and use Mint and Cinnamon, you may get greeted by this GUI and think "Oh, nice, easy, all is easy going", but that all too easily oyu may run into issues, problems, things you want or need to do, where you enter ground no longer covered by this GUI. Then its Terminal time. And that is a problem. Most users do not want to understand - thus: learn and study - DOS just to operate Windows. And it should not even be expected and needed that ordinary users have such deep-rooting knowledge - and learning a CLI language and syntax IS studying.

You do not want to need to become a mechanic just to drive your car. You want to be a driver, not a mechanic. A user, and most of us: just that, not more.

And I think here is the reason, one of the two major reasons (the other is software comoatability and the dominance Windows has here), why Linux never really got out of the starting block when comeeting against Windows for private end users market shares.

Finally, I am quite good at Windows, status version 7, now. But this knoweldge and experience got colected over almost two decades of using it, and for sim-tuning doing quite some non-rutine background tweaking. You cnanot learn such things from a book, reading it once and then you are there. Its more an experience than learning thing. Or learning by doing. A good modern OS-GUI should cut that short. Thats why many of us find it unproblematic to switch to iOS, to Android. We get a device, and intuitively navigate the unknwon waters and learn how things are to be done.

That is possible with Linux only as far as the GUI guides you. And when the GUI's reahc end, then you are all of a sudden in pitch-black darkness. Like Windows 95 22 years ago, which had a fully-fledged CLI-based DOS-interface still installed. And remmeber: back then Windows was in a state so that DOS still was needed not rarely. Not to mention that it did many things much faster.

Moonlight · 10-05-16, 02:38 PM

This^ is what is putting me off Linux cinnamon, I started with ms dos and upgraded to win 95 and now I'm using win 7, I'm not going to take a step backwards and re-learn console commands all over again.
When this Win7 operating system has reached its sell by date my time on the internet will be over, it was great while it lasted but MS has stepped over the line with Win 10 and its privacy data theft, goodbye Microsoft and good riddance.
ML

Rockin Robbins · 10-05-16, 06:59 PM

I hate to burst everyone's bubble, but there is plenty of ground that is not covered by Windows GUI. We'll get to that in a minute.

But first, Linux Mint is not a GUI. Linux Mint can use the entire family of GUIs that any Linux can use. Mint was the first Ubuntu derivative to use the MATE desktop, and MATE is nothing but an implementation of something that resembles the GNOME 2 desktop as faithfully as it can. It is NOT advanced, it is a 2006 GUI. It is built on the precept of organizing an operating system by the use of a menu tree. It works very well, but not better than LXDE or GNOME 2 or Lubuntu or XFCE or Cinnamon, all adaptations of the original GNOME 2 concept: menu based operating systems. They work well. They are not advanced. They are old fashioned and I like 'em that way.

If you want an advanced system you want KDE Plasma. Now THAT's an advanced GUI. It looks incredible. It works well, although there's a little paradigm warp you have to get your brain to conform to. When someone sees you running a computer with KDE Plasma they say WOW! What's that? KDE might be ahead of the curve right now with wow factor actually ahead of its efficiency but who cares?

GNOME 3 is also a beautiful GUI, set up like a smart phone before there ever WERE smart phones. Fabulous looking icons, lots of sorting and filtering options: it is what Windows 8, 8.1 and 10 copied just enough to be barely functional about and twice as much again. GNOME 3 is what Windows wants to be when and if it grows up.

Then there's Canonical's Unity, the GUI that everybody loved to hate. Canonical is the publisher of Ubuntu, and they wanted a GUI all their own, which no Linux distro really has or had. And when it first came out it was an ugly unmitigated disaster. That's where Mint, Peppermint, Elementary OS and a host of other Ubuntu derivatives came from: Unity hate. But you can install any GUI in Ubuntu, so who cares?

Why have a lesser derivative, like Mint, when you can have the much better supported Ubuntu and install the GUI of your choice. Mint without the Ubuntu repositories is trash. What makes the Ubuntu derivatives great is their ability to use the Ubuntu and Debian repositories, the largest, most comprehensive and best policed and maintained software repositories in the world.

So Ubuntu chooses the Nautilus file manager. KDE in any distribution normally uses Dolphin. LXDE uses the PCMan File Manager. OpenBox uses Thunar. I like 'em all. There are lots of them and people define their Linux distribution partly by which file manager they picked. Who cares? I can use any file manager in any distribution!

Same with web browser, text editor, screen compositor, sound system, every aspect of the operating system is just a software choice. You are ALWAYS free to make your own choices. Linux is all about freedom to make choices and that makes arguments about which distribution you run a bit silly.

But let's blow the lid off Windows GUI being all inclusive. It is no more inclusive than Linux GUIs and maybe less so. Lets take something as simple as copying a directory tree. Windows falls down and can't get up. I was copying a directory tree for a Minecraft save from Windows to Ubuntu with Windows Explorer. The tree goes dozens of layers deep and has dozens of files per directory. Windows file manager takes many hours to copy about 40 megabytes because it chokes on the directory tree. The only solution is either to boot up Linux or go the the command window and do an xcopy function from the command line. What takes many hours in Windows happens in fifteen minutes from the command line.

That's only a simple example. Most registration changes are command line operations that can't be done from the GUI. At best you make your script in Notebook and then execute the script on the command line. This fantasy that Windows GUI is all inclusive is just silly. Can you write a GUI shell for anything you want to do on the command line? Sure. For Windows and Linux that is true.

But at least in Linux, there is an underlying process that can be understood and manipulated. You aren't stuck using an opaque GUI that gives you no idea what is going on. Let me illustrate.

A friend of mine at work brought in his laptop with Windows 7 on it. It was slow as can be and he was about to drop it off a cliff but cliffs are illegal in Florida so he brought it to me. I asked him what he did with the computer and when he said browsed the web, listened to music, e-mail and forums I told him he was a perfect candidate for Linux.

So I wiped his system clean, divided it in two and gave him an Ubuntu/Windows dual installation with GRUB bootup to choose between the two operating systems. First boot into Ubuntu. Ubuntu tells you in text on screen every step it does during the boot process and the first line told all: Computer running too hot, throttling CPU. Bingo! His computer didn't run slow because it was full of malware, it was running hot and the CPU was protecting itself! Windows didn't say crap about it. To be fair, we could have installed software that would have sniffed that one out.

But Ubuntu told him before the operating system was even started! It was as simple matter to double the speed of his machine. He was totally sold on Linux in 20 seconds, on the first boot before the operating system was even running.

Why? The command line, which is always underpinning whatever GUI you are running. Windows ran from that and we can trace the atrophy of Windows from the elimination of DOS. When somebody brings a Windows computer to me with problems the first thing I do is plug in a Linux Live CD and find out what the story is. It's that superior.

With Windows you run the aptly named Wizard and it works or not. With Linux you run the diagnostic/repair program and it tells you what is wrong, what it proposes to do and you choose. Windows System Repair disk is a cruel joke that keeps you in the dark and feeds you stuff that comes out the back end of cows. "The system may reboot several times while the repair is in process. If the repair works you can restart your system normally after that." And you'll never know the first thing the repair routine tried to do so you can figure out something else if it doesn't work. That because it is the GUI which is the black box, not the command line. You are afraid of the wrong thing.

BarracudaUAK · 10-06-16, 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

...

If you want an advanced system you want KDE Plasma. Now THAT's an advanced GUI. It looks incredible.
...

I was going to mention this earlier, but got a phone call and had to make a trip to the ER for someone I know. All is well now...

KDE has a lot of "Polish", "back in the day", I know a few that didn't have enough memory to run it. It can put a bit of strain on lower end PCs.
I'm using 1.2GB of RAM for KDE, a few widgets (cpu/ram/network), and firefox open for subsim...
I've been using KDE regularly for my Linux installs since I was using an AMD 2500xp with 1GB ram, and a 256MB video card...
Other desktops can run quicker on the same hardware, but I personally like KDE.
I feel completely "un-windows-ified" when using it.

I haven't liked Windows for a long time. Win98 was the last one I "liked". And even that one I had to patch together all the time. I had, for a while, a triple boot setup. 98/XP/Fedora. XP for the (then) newer games, 98 to fix XP, and Linux to run all the free software (such as 3d modeling programs like blender) that I couldn't afford for Windows (3ds max, etc). And finally to fix both 98 and XP when they messed up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

...
It works well,
...

I agree.
There have been a few problems with the switch to KDE 5 from 4 (fedora 20 had KDE4, 23/24 have KDE5), but mostly trouble free.
I've only had a "major" issue twice. And that is with Fedora 24, but I simply rebooted and all was fine. (The Windows Manager crashed, but I am running Xorg 1.17 for FGLRX, not the 1.18 that is packaged with the .iso. So that may be the cause.)

But That usually occurs when I try to ALT-TAB from a game like SH4... Not exactly recommended in windows either....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

although there's a little paradigm warp you have to get your brain to conform to.
...

I never noticed any "warpage".... then again, maybe it's because I'm already "warped".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

...
When someone sees you running a computer with KDE Plasma they say WOW! What's that? KDE might be ahead of the curve right now with wow factor actually ahead of its efficiency but who cares?
...

Several times over the last 10 years I've shown people KDE, and they have asked:
"Is that the new windows?"
I reply "no that's KDE."
"KDE?"
"Yes, KDE, it runs on Linux. And, this version is from 3 years ago. I just keep it here to run these programs *points to programs* for modding my games."
"Will this run on my computer?"
"yep."

I showed someone Fedora 16 with KDE, in the begining of 2014, and they thought it was Win8.1, but they wanted to know what I did to get my Win8.1 to look like that.
That's when I dropped another "it's from 2 years ago" comment.
They didn't believe me, so I showed then the Fedora website, 19 was out, and I think 20 was nearing release...

...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

Same with web browser, text editor, screen compositor, sound system, every aspect of the operating system is just a software choice. You are ALWAYS free to make your own choices. Linux is all about freedom to make choices and that makes arguments about which distribution you run a bit silly.
...

The only "distro" argument I would make would be depending on two things:
1: How old is the hardware you are trying to run it on?
And,
2: How often do you like to upgrade your OS?

Certain distros would support less "work", i.e. LTS versions meaning you don't have to worry about installing the new Version for continued updates.
Others would support newer hardware, and capabilities sooner.

Other than that, I've noticed that some distros are "geared" to newer users, others to those that prefer to "do it themselves".

Barracuda

Skybird · 10-06-16, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonlight

This^ is what is putting me off Linux cinnamon, I started with ms dos and upgraded to win 95 and now I'm using win 7, I'm not going to take a step backwards and re-learn console commands all over again.
When this Win7 operating system has reached its sell by date my time on the internet will be over, it was great while it lasted but MS has stepped over the line with Win 10 and its privacy data theft, goodbye Microsoft and good riddance.
ML

To be fair, the ordinary surfer and email writer, text editor, photo manipulator, is unlikely to hit troubles soon in Linux.

However, if you want to tailor your rig for for exmaple games, specially tune both to get best performance, then the Cinnamon GUI soon leaves you behind. Or to bind in hardware that is not automatically recognised.

Techncial nalfunctions also cna happen. They seem to happen not as frequently as under windows, which even has windows updates adding to these messes

, but it cna happen, or may result from user fault.

I have had two or three such issues over this year. without forums tellling me which magical spells to use, I would have been hopelessly lost. NO WAY. Or yo start to study Linux like you needed to study DOS 25 years ago. And then collect some years of experience. And here is where the problem starts again.

Just to be understood correctly - I still recommend to switch over to Linux. I only say that while many things are better indeed, some things are worse. You need to forsee the chance for this to happen. For myself, I know that I will never know Lnux as good as I now know Wndows in various incarnations until W7. Its simply a time - and remaining years

-, issue. Plus with 50 years you are no longer that hot for new tech stuff anymore like you were when you were 16, 20, 25. Yoo start to appreciate known routines and comfort over innovation. LOL

That I start gaming under Linux, I do not expect within the coming years, probably never in my lifespan. Too many of the sim titles I am after, do not and will never run under Linux. Trying to get them working in a VM has its own implicit complications, and also risks. Security risks also are involved with using WINE. Its not as easy going as it sounds at first description. I do not check out for no reason how Assetto Corsa for example runs on PS4, although I have it and a wheel for PC. I look for non-Linux altenratives to gaming on PC. Mobiles hardly can be the way

, although there are some very good games out there indeed. But too few. With some other titles I am lost both on consoles or under Linux. Steel Beasts. FSX/P3D+PMDG. Things like that.

Moonlight · 10-06-16, 08:52 AM

@Skybird and RR, I have a spare PC that's doing nothing at the moment, how's about giving us a tutorial on installing Linux and which one to use cinnamon etc.
I've looked at various websites and have come away even more confused than I started about which one I should be using, for those of us who are un-initiated about all things Linux it would be a god send.

Onkel Neal · 10-06-16, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonlight

@Skybird and RR, I have a spare PC that's doing nothing at the moment, how's about giving us a tutorial on installing Linux and which one to use cinnamon etc.
I've looked at various websites and have come away even more confused than I started about which one I should be using, for those of us who are un-initiated about all things Linux it would be a god send.

Subscribed!

Skybird · 10-06-16, 11:27 AM

As a newcomer migrating from Windows, you may want to choose Linux Mint version 18.0 or version 17.3 - and Cinnamon. Mint-Cinnamon is your combo to go with as starter.

I can hardly do it better than this piece, have you guys tried this?

Installation Guide
http://www.wikihow.com/Install-Linux-Mint

Do it step by steps. One step, check it. Next step, check it. Find and download an ISO image, links below again. A software for making a CD or USB stick bootable, links below again. Burn ISO on it. Switch BIOS to "boot from USB stick/CD". Restart laptop, and it will launch in Linux, within seconds. You will see that almost all things go much faster under Linux.

Now test whether you like the new environment. Explore, and play around with it. Since the installation still is not on your HD, you hardly can do damage. If your laptop shows graphical artifacts, it may be that another graphics driver is needed, if so, come back and ask, and we see for it.

And again, these links for starters:

creating a bootable usb stick:
http://unetbootin.github.io/

downloading linux mint 18 iso:
https://linuxmint.com/download.php

I recommend the Cinnamon desktop.

international/English main forum for Mint:
https://forums.linuxmint.com/

German main forum for Mint:
http://www.linuxmintusers.de/index.p...7&action=forum

Do not forget that if you websurf, Firefox should be sealed up a bit before, too.

aanker · 10-06-16, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onkel Neal

Subscribed!

Yes, please include me or point me to where this Topic might be, if/when it starts.

Little things like this for example:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

Do not forget that if you websurf, Firefox should be sealed up a bit before, too.

Moonlight · 10-06-16, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonlight

@Skybird and RR, I have a spare PC that's doing nothing at the moment, how's about giving us a tutorial on installing Linux and which one to use cinnamon etc.
I've looked at various websites and have come away even more confused than I started about which one I should be using, for those of us who are un-initiated about all things Linux it would be a god send.

You're doing what everyone else does when it comes to anything to do with Linux Skybird, you're passing the buck.

All those links you posted are going to confuse the heck out of me and I'm going to quit out of there before I tear my bloody hair out in frustration.
Did you even read what I posted, I asked you and RR to give us a tutorial on how you got Linux up and running, you're always extolling the virtues of Linux so now its time to stop sitting on your backsides and give us the benefit of your Linux installation experience.
If you can't be bothered to do this tutorial just say so, I won't hold it against you, I'll just stop reading anything to do with that OS from you two or from anybody else as well.

Skybird · 10-06-16, 05:21 PM

Moonlight,

I am a newbie to Linux myself.

Consider this.

There is not that much more than what others already have said in many places or in that tutorial that I linked above as an example. Some initial questions I could answer then, yes - if you would care to get to even that point. That tutorial I just linked for you, says right what I would tell you, but it does so with screenshots, and in a generally more profound way.

I searched links with a booting-USB software for you. I searched the link for downloading the Linux Mint 18 ISO for you. I read through that tutorial and checked that it is understandable, and I thibk it is - I did install my first Linux ten months ago with a far inferior German text I had found. I linked you the two main forums where any questions especially on Terminal questions could be answered that i could not answer.

And I have posted all this two or three times before, in various threads over the past months.

But you want me to just sit down and write another long twisted text that maybe would include some content errord or flawed info because I do not know it better myself, errors, and spending time on what already has been said more competently by many others in many places on Linux, not to mention that in german there are really some very good introductory books on Linux, and I assume there are in English as well, and I said over the past ten months several times that i recommend to get one "Linux for Dummies"-style of book and get some basic overview before you start. I did the same. It helped. Initially did not even read the whole book, just the first 40 pages or so.

Its not too much asked for. Some work, two or three hours of reading and preparing yourself will be needed if somebodyody wants to get into Linux while also getting some deeper basic understanding into what it is and why and how things are going. But in principle, you already get started by what is in that tutorial link I posted. I used some text in german, that was much less detailed. I think it was from some German PC magazine, but I do not know exactly anymore.

Really. I showed you the direction. I recommended you the pace to walk at. I gave you the initial advises for what to expect. A weather report. I gave you a map. And also a list with telephone numbers to call for help, including mine.

But walking the walk you must yourself. I will not carry you around.

Use the link for downloading the ISO file. Read the information on that site. Get the Cinnamon version you need: 32 or 64 Bit, I do not know your hardware, but most likely it is 64 Bit. You better be sure on the Bits.

Use the link for downloading the boot-software file. Read the information there, it is not that much at all. With many screenshots, you get talked through the procedure.

Create that disk, and/or stick. Some older systems may prefer the one over the other method so maybe create both, to have them ready.

And then

- either go through that installation tutorial, step by step. That is what I did, and even if I write whole night long, more than what is written in that tutorial I could not tell you, too;

- or set your BIOS to boot from stick, and then the system should launch from stick in Linux even without having installed Linux to HD. You can then check it out, look at things, it is fully functional. Get a first impression, whether it meets your taste or not. Check drivers onboard, play around. Learning by doing.

And when then you run into some problem, then precisely describe it and ask, and I will see whether I can help. Most likely I will not be able, then you have to ask the same question, as precisely, in the English main forum for Linux Mint that I linked, or Robbins or somebody else with better knowledge needs to answer instead of myself. You will get an answer there, and if those guys are like in the German forum, then you will get an answer within minutes. Or several answers. If the problem is difficult, they will talk you through. And different to me, those guys know Linux better than I ever will. I had to ask there myself severla times.

Just doing the working steps you must yourself. Those links are all you need to get you started.

Now get that booting stick/CD up with a Linux installation, and then boot your system from that one. And there you are.

P.S. Note, if you do not understand that from the tutorial: Linux gets always installed to HD via such a USB stick or CD that you created first via an ISO. Alternatively you can buy some book DVD with some Linux veriuson, but often, these versions are outdated. Ideal it nwould be if you get a Linux Mint 18 for Dummies book with an according installation CD/DVD. Else you MUST create such a stick or CD/DVD, but what software you use for that, is unimportant, I linked just the one I used myself, there are dozens of others. When you boot your target system via this stick or DVD, you then land on the Linux Mint Cinnamon desktop. From here you can - but must not - install to HD by pressing that huge button on desktop tellinmg you that it starts to install Linux - this time to HD. But do not be too fast with that, first check you system and the Linux Mint itself.

If there are hardware compatability issues you run into, espoecially with graohis, printers, then ask again. Moist likely you will need to try through various drivers, I then tell you how. But until then - step by step. No second step before the first.

09-28-16, 04:42 AM	#33
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,448 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	I just would wish that after two decades any Linux GUI finally would decide to go all the way instead of stoppig halfway, turn to the side and disappear between the bushes and trees, leaving the ordinary user behind and alone. Cinnamon/Mint is probably the most advanced GUI for Linux - but even this can have you ending up with a need to face Terminal quite easily. And if you are no holy priest, you do not find the entrance to this "temple" then. You end up pöaste-andcopying magicla spoeels you get form others without you knowing what you are doing there, and why. And you can end up in even deeper trouble that way. This way, every user who was just a user under Windows, again needs to bcome a professional insider like 30 years ago. This expectation is unrealistic. In business. Amongst most gamers. In private households. I think this is the one most dominant reason that will prevent Linux for another 20 years to keep up with Windows, Android, iOS. I mean since 20 years I get told how great Linux is and that it is about to take over. But the market share it has with users still is clearly below the 2% mark. Instead of always breaking loose another fork and an other variation, developers should really consider to sit together and work on going all the way. It would be a first under Linux. But as long as Terminal - or however the CLI is called in different Linux derivates - becomes a necessity to use it so often and easily as it now is the case - and I say that after beign with Linux for almost tne months now - , as long I see no realistic chance that Linux will taske major shares from Windows. Peoiple will or will not turn away from Windiws, due to the W10 mess. But for the most they will not move to Linux. They move towards Android, Chrome and iOS. Don't get me wrong, I am still with Linux and like it, and recommend to switch Windows PCs to Linux. But i do not ignore the problems that also are there. Its not all rosy in Linux land. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

10-05-16, 05:30 AM	#35
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,448 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	Your explanation depicts, in more detail, what I already believed to have understood. And I cannot argue with it. However, using Cinnamon, which is probbaly the most advanced Linux GUI out there, my point was slightly different. That is that if you come to Linux, and use Mint and Cinnamon, you may get greeted by this GUI and think "Oh, nice, easy, all is easy going", but that all too easily oyu may run into issues, problems, things you want or need to do, where you enter ground no longer covered by this GUI. Then its Terminal time. And that is a problem. Most users do not want to understand - thus: learn and study - DOS just to operate Windows. And it should not even be expected and needed that ordinary users have such deep-rooting knowledge - and learning a CLI language and syntax IS studying. You do not want to need to become a mechanic just to drive your car. You want to be a driver, not a mechanic. A user, and most of us: just that, not more. And I think here is the reason, one of the two major reasons (the other is software comoatability and the dominance Windows has here), why Linux never really got out of the starting block when comeeting against Windows for private end users market shares. Finally, I am quite good at Windows, status version 7, now. But this knoweldge and experience got colected over almost two decades of using it, and for sim-tuning doing quite some non-rutine background tweaking. You cnanot learn such things from a book, reading it once and then you are there. Its more an experience than learning thing. Or learning by doing. A good modern OS-GUI should cut that short. Thats why many of us find it unproblematic to switch to iOS, to Android. We get a device, and intuitively navigate the unknwon waters and learn how things are to be done. That is possible with Linux only as far as the GUI guides you. And when the GUI's reahc end, then you are all of a sudden in pitch-black darkness. Like Windows 95 22 years ago, which had a fully-fledged CLI-based DOS-interface still installed. And remmeber: back then Windows was in a state so that DOS still was needed not rarely. Not to mention that it did many things much faster. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

10-05-16, 02:38 PM	#36
Moonlight Admiral Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Fookhall Copse Posts: 2,122 Downloads: 184 Uploads: 0	This^ is what is putting me off Linux cinnamon, I started with ms dos and upgraded to win 95 and now I'm using win 7, I'm not going to take a step backwards and re-learn console commands all over again. When this Win7 operating system has reached its sell by date my time on the internet will be over, it was great while it lasted but MS has stepped over the line with Win 10 and its privacy data theft, goodbye Microsoft and good riddance. ML __________________

10-05-16, 06:59 PM	#37
Rockin Robbins Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: DeLand, FL Posts: 8,899 Downloads: 135 Uploads: 52	I hate to burst everyone's bubble, but there is plenty of ground that is not covered by Windows GUI. We'll get to that in a minute. But first, Linux Mint is not a GUI. Linux Mint can use the entire family of GUIs that any Linux can use. Mint was the first Ubuntu derivative to use the MATE desktop, and MATE is nothing but an implementation of something that resembles the GNOME 2 desktop as faithfully as it can. It is NOT advanced, it is a 2006 GUI. It is built on the precept of organizing an operating system by the use of a menu tree. It works very well, but not better than LXDE or GNOME 2 or Lubuntu or XFCE or Cinnamon, all adaptations of the original GNOME 2 concept: menu based operating systems. They work well. They are not advanced. They are old fashioned and I like 'em that way. If you want an advanced system you want KDE Plasma. Now THAT's an advanced GUI. It looks incredible. It works well, although there's a little paradigm warp you have to get your brain to conform to. When someone sees you running a computer with KDE Plasma they say WOW! What's that? KDE might be ahead of the curve right now with wow factor actually ahead of its efficiency but who cares? GNOME 3 is also a beautiful GUI, set up like a smart phone before there ever WERE smart phones. Fabulous looking icons, lots of sorting and filtering options: it is what Windows 8, 8.1 and 10 copied just enough to be barely functional about and twice as much again. GNOME 3 is what Windows wants to be when and if it grows up. Then there's Canonical's Unity, the GUI that everybody loved to hate. Canonical is the publisher of Ubuntu, and they wanted a GUI all their own, which no Linux distro really has or had. And when it first came out it was an ugly unmitigated disaster. That's where Mint, Peppermint, Elementary OS and a host of other Ubuntu derivatives came from: Unity hate. But you can install any GUI in Ubuntu, so who cares? Why have a lesser derivative, like Mint, when you can have the much better supported Ubuntu and install the GUI of your choice. Mint without the Ubuntu repositories is trash. What makes the Ubuntu derivatives great is their ability to use the Ubuntu and Debian repositories, the largest, most comprehensive and best policed and maintained software repositories in the world. So Ubuntu chooses the Nautilus file manager. KDE in any distribution normally uses Dolphin. LXDE uses the PCMan File Manager. OpenBox uses Thunar. I like 'em all. There are lots of them and people define their Linux distribution partly by which file manager they picked. Who cares? I can use any file manager in any distribution! Same with web browser, text editor, screen compositor, sound system, every aspect of the operating system is just a software choice. You are ALWAYS free to make your own choices. Linux is all about freedom to make choices and that makes arguments about which distribution you run a bit silly. But let's blow the lid off Windows GUI being all inclusive. It is no more inclusive than Linux GUIs and maybe less so. Lets take something as simple as copying a directory tree. Windows falls down and can't get up. I was copying a directory tree for a Minecraft save from Windows to Ubuntu with Windows Explorer. The tree goes dozens of layers deep and has dozens of files per directory. Windows file manager takes many hours to copy about 40 megabytes because it chokes on the directory tree. The only solution is either to boot up Linux or go the the command window and do an xcopy function from the command line. What takes many hours in Windows happens in fifteen minutes from the command line. That's only a simple example. Most registration changes are command line operations that can't be done from the GUI. At best you make your script in Notebook and then execute the script on the command line. This fantasy that Windows GUI is all inclusive is just silly. Can you write a GUI shell for anything you want to do on the command line? Sure. For Windows and Linux that is true. But at least in Linux, there is an underlying process that can be understood and manipulated. You aren't stuck using an opaque GUI that gives you no idea what is going on. Let me illustrate. A friend of mine at work brought in his laptop with Windows 7 on it. It was slow as can be and he was about to drop it off a cliff but cliffs are illegal in Florida so he brought it to me. I asked him what he did with the computer and when he said browsed the web, listened to music, e-mail and forums I told him he was a perfect candidate for Linux. So I wiped his system clean, divided it in two and gave him an Ubuntu/Windows dual installation with GRUB bootup to choose between the two operating systems. First boot into Ubuntu. Ubuntu tells you in text on screen every step it does during the boot process and the first line told all: Computer running too hot, throttling CPU. Bingo! His computer didn't run slow because it was full of malware, it was running hot and the CPU was protecting itself! Windows didn't say crap about it. To be fair, we could have installed software that would have sniffed that one out. But Ubuntu told him before the operating system was even started! It was as simple matter to double the speed of his machine. He was totally sold on Linux in 20 seconds, on the first boot before the operating system was even running. Why? The command line, which is always underpinning whatever GUI you are running. Windows ran from that and we can trace the atrophy of Windows from the elimination of DOS. When somebody brings a Windows computer to me with problems the first thing I do is plug in a Linux Live CD and find out what the story is. It's that superior. With Windows you run the aptly named Wizard and it works or not. With Linux you run the diagnostic/repair program and it tells you what is wrong, what it proposes to do and you choose. Windows System Repair disk is a cruel joke that keeps you in the dark and feeds you stuff that comes out the back end of cows. "The system may reboot several times while the repair is in process. If the repair works you can restart your system normally after that." And you'll never know the first thing the repair routine tried to do so you can figure out something else if it doesn't work. That because it is the GUI which is the black box, not the command line. You are afraid of the wrong thing. __________________ Sub Skipper's Bag of Tricks, Slightly Subnuclear Mk 14 & Cutie, Slightly Subnuclear Deck Gun, EZPlot 2.0, TMOPlot, TMOKeys, SH4CMS

10-06-16, 08:52 AM	#40
Moonlight Admiral Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Fookhall Copse Posts: 2,122 Downloads: 184 Uploads: 0	@Skybird and RR, I have a spare PC that's doing nothing at the moment, how's about giving us a tutorial on installing Linux and which one to use cinnamon etc. I've looked at various websites and have come away even more confused than I started about which one I should be using, for those of us who are un-initiated about all things Linux it would be a god send. __________________

10-06-16, 11:27 AM	#42
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,448 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	As a newcomer migrating from Windows, you may want to choose Linux Mint version 18.0 or version 17.3 - and Cinnamon. Mint-Cinnamon is your combo to go with as starter. I can hardly do it better than this piece, have you guys tried this? Installation Guide http://www.wikihow.com/Install-Linux-Mint Do it step by steps. One step, check it. Next step, check it. Find and download an ISO image, links below again. A software for making a CD or USB stick bootable, links below again. Burn ISO on it. Switch BIOS to "boot from USB stick/CD". Restart laptop, and it will launch in Linux, within seconds. You will see that almost all things go much faster under Linux. Now test whether you like the new environment. Explore, and play around with it. Since the installation still is not on your HD, you hardly can do damage. If your laptop shows graphical artifacts, it may be that another graphics driver is needed, if so, come back and ask, and we see for it. And again, these links for starters: creating a bootable usb stick: http://unetbootin.github.io/ downloading linux mint 18 iso: https://linuxmint.com/download.php I recommend the Cinnamon desktop. international/English main forum for Mint: https://forums.linuxmint.com/ German main forum for Mint: http://www.linuxmintusers.de/index.p...7&action=forum Do not forget that if you websurf, Firefox should be sealed up a bit before, too. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

10-06-16, 05:21 PM	#45
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,448 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	Moonlight, I am a newbie to Linux myself. Consider this. There is not that much more than what others already have said in many places or in that tutorial that I linked above as an example. Some initial questions I could answer then, yes - if you would care to get to even that point. That tutorial I just linked for you, says right what I would tell you, but it does so with screenshots, and in a generally more profound way. I searched links with a booting-USB software for you. I searched the link for downloading the Linux Mint 18 ISO for you. I read through that tutorial and checked that it is understandable, and I thibk it is - I did install my first Linux ten months ago with a far inferior German text I had found. I linked you the two main forums where any questions especially on Terminal questions could be answered that i could not answer. And I have posted all this two or three times before, in various threads over the past months. But you want me to just sit down and write another long twisted text that maybe would include some content errord or flawed info because I do not know it better myself, errors, and spending time on what already has been said more competently by many others in many places on Linux, not to mention that in german there are really some very good introductory books on Linux, and I assume there are in English as well, and I said over the past ten months several times that i recommend to get one "Linux for Dummies"-style of book and get some basic overview before you start. I did the same. It helped. Initially did not even read the whole book, just the first 40 pages or so. Its not too much asked for. Some work, two or three hours of reading and preparing yourself will be needed if somebodyody wants to get into Linux while also getting some deeper basic understanding into what it is and why and how things are going. But in principle, you already get started by what is in that tutorial link I posted. I used some text in german, that was much less detailed. I think it was from some German PC magazine, but I do not know exactly anymore. Really. I showed you the direction. I recommended you the pace to walk at. I gave you the initial advises for what to expect. A weather report. I gave you a map. And also a list with telephone numbers to call for help, including mine. But walking the walk you must yourself. I will not carry you around. Use the link for downloading the ISO file. Read the information on that site. Get the Cinnamon version you need: 32 or 64 Bit, I do not know your hardware, but most likely it is 64 Bit. You better be sure on the Bits. Use the link for downloading the boot-software file. Read the information there, it is not that much at all. With many screenshots, you get talked through the procedure. Create that disk, and/or stick. Some older systems may prefer the one over the other method so maybe create both, to have them ready. And then - either go through that installation tutorial, step by step. That is what I did, and even if I write whole night long, more than what is written in that tutorial I could not tell you, too; - or set your BIOS to boot from stick, and then the system should launch from stick in Linux even without having installed Linux to HD. You can then check it out, look at things, it is fully functional. Get a first impression, whether it meets your taste or not. Check drivers onboard, play around. Learning by doing. And when then you run into some problem, then precisely describe it and ask, and I will see whether I can help. Most likely I will not be able, then you have to ask the same question, as precisely, in the English main forum for Linux Mint that I linked, or Robbins or somebody else with better knowledge needs to answer instead of myself. You will get an answer there, and if those guys are like in the German forum, then you will get an answer within minutes. Or several answers. If the problem is difficult, they will talk you through. And different to me, those guys know Linux better than I ever will. I had to ask there myself severla times. Just doing the working steps you must yourself. Those links are all you need to get you started. Now get that booting stick/CD up with a Linux installation, and then boot your system from that one. And there you are. P.S. Note, if you do not understand that from the tutorial: Linux gets always installed to HD via such a USB stick or CD that you created first via an ISO. Alternatively you can buy some book DVD with some Linux veriuson, but often, these versions are outdated. Ideal it nwould be if you get a Linux Mint 18 for Dummies book with an according installation CD/DVD. Else you MUST create such a stick or CD/DVD, but what software you use for that, is unimportant, I linked just the one I used myself, there are dozens of others. When you boot your target system via this stick or DVD, you then land on the Linux Mint Cinnamon desktop. From here you can - but must not - install to HD by pressing that huge button on desktop tellinmg you that it starts to install Linux - this time to HD. But do not be too fast with that, first check you system and the Linux Mint itself. If there are hardware compatability issues you run into, espoecially with graohis, printers, then ask again. Moist likely you will need to try through various drivers, I then tell you how. But until then - step by step. No second step before the first. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert. Last edited by Skybird; 10-06-16 at 05:54 PM.

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