[TEC] Sonar ranges AI_sensors.dat

Sniper297 · 04-03-19, 10:58 PM

Been trying to go the opposite way Ducimus went in this thread;

www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=119272

To try and lower the psychic destroyer effect where they hear you from 2 miles away when you have the motors stopped. My thinking was to increase the active range and decrease the passive range, but near as I can tell there's no data in any individual IJN destroyer saying which sonar that particular class uses, or when?

Found the type 3 (1, 3, and 5) and type 93 (1 and 2) A and P, but I notice there's also a type 3 M1P and M2P, are those for merchant ships?

I'm setting up some test single missions in 42 and 44 to trial and error my way through what uses what, but if someone else has already done a list it would save me a lot of tedious testing.

04-04-19, 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sniper297

Been trying to go the opposite way Ducimus went in this thread;

www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=119272

[...] as I can tell there's no data in any individual IJN destroyer saying which sonar that particular class uses, or when?

.sns file in every ship folder will give you this information. You can open it with notepad.

Here is Fubuki .sns file as an example:

Sniper297 · 04-04-19, 04:31 AM

Gracias! That helps a lot, apparently also includes radar and the dates they get it.

CapnScurvy · 04-04-19, 07:43 AM

Your going to be getting into a CAN OF WORMS before you're done!

I've just been looking/modifying this for Ultimate and you're going to be surprised to find some things.

For one thing, you're going to find the Hydrophone and Sonar "ID's" in it's .dat file are backwards.....Sonar means Hydrophone/ Hydrophone means Sonar. Don't bother to change them, just know that's how the game looks for them (some newby must have coded it wrong and it was left like that...let's call him "Wayne", and Wayne did a lot of stuff like that throughout the game files!?!).

You're going to find the Sonar "Pings" are actually in the Hydrophone controller, not the Sonar parameters. Why? Well, if the far reaching Hydrophone parameters detects your sub it, immediately begins it's "pinging", letting you know it's detected you (so should the warship start turning towards your position). It's not until the smaller Sonar "cone of detection" comes up over your position will it begin the faster pinging which indicates the Sonar parameters have gotten into the detection process.

By the way, use the Stock game map icons to help in seeing when/where the lines are drawn to help in determining what's going on with a detection. TMO, RFB remove them.....you'll need them to know what's going on during testing. You're also going to make sure no other sensors are interfering with your testing. Turn off the test ship's Radar and Visual capabilities and work on just one Hydrophone or Sonar sensor at a time. On that same thought, you're also going to see the large circle representing the Visual Sensor does not get turned off on the Nav Map after disabling it?!? Why? Let's ask Wayne!?

Just a few "tid bits" from days of working on this very thing.

Sniper297 · 04-04-19, 10:52 PM

Odd thing I found browsing through some of the destroyers SMS files, all of them list LinkName=AI_Visual for the visual range - so change that and the visual range ring changes for all. I had noticed the screwup between hydrophone versus "sonar" (actually the pinger is called the transducer, sonar = both hydrophone and transducer), you'd think with a 50-50 chance of getting it right...they did the same thing with radar A scope versus PPI scope, exactly backwards.

Their math is rather weird too, I'm guessing the rings are average range, for example the type 21 radar max is 14000 yards, the outer ring around the Akizuki (has type 21 in 44) is exactly 8000 yards. Change the range to 7000 in the AI_sensors.dat file and the ring is 4000 yards, so it changes proportionately, halve the range and halve the circle.

What I'm playing with right now is doubled active sonar so the semi circle is twice as big, with the passive halved. That cuts way down on the apparent psychic effect where you're creeping along at 2 knots five miles away and one of them suddenly makes a beeline straight for you, but it may be a little too much because they get really stupid and charge off in weird directions sometimes. Doubling the active seems to work well because you hear pinging all the time when you're inside the task force or convoy, really keeps you on your toes.

As for cans of worms, right now I just have all the passive sonars adjusted for the same max range, for testing purposes it really doesn't matter what which ship had in October of 1943 if I'm testing in 1942. Eventually I'll start with the backup copy of the original and use the calculator to increase or reduce everything by whatever percentage balances the difficulty best. That's pretty much what I did with the "Bang for your Buck" mod, take the default min/max blast and radius values for each torpedo type, multiply by 125, 135, 150 percent or whatever. If I do eventually upload this it will probably be similar with a choice of difficulty levels.

Sniper297 · 04-05-19, 02:27 PM

Update. Before I start, main thing that caught me in a trap several years ago was opening the AI_sensors.dat file with S3D and jumping to a conclusion. First four datablocks in the file;

Node_AI_Radar
Node_AI_Visual
Node_AI_Hydrophone
Node_AI_Sonar

Well, this will be easy, just edit the first four.

Nope. NONE of the IJN warships I've looked at so far use 1. 3. or 4, ALL of them, from the Yamato to the small gunboat, use number 2. Silly, considering distance to the horizon is dependent on your height above the water, but every SNS file starts with LinkName=AI_Visual.

After that they differ depending on class and year, and the rings (circles pies half circles wedges whatever) you see are an average of the actual range - math seems to indicate the max range is about 1.72 times the radius of the ring you see on the chart view. Here's an Akizuki in June 1944;

Lower right corner numbers are the actual max range followed by the measurement of the ring in the game, for example VISUAL 9500 5600 indicates the number in the file for max range followed by the measured number. (Again never changes, all vessels all dates use that one datablock.)
The wedge cut out of the passive sonar is the "baffles", can't hear anything but your own propellers and machinery noise behind you. So if you're in that cutout wedge you can speed up, the evil villains can't hear you in that wedge.
The half circle in front is the way WWII ship sonar transducers (the actual "pinger") were designed, mounted under the bow and capable of sweeping beam to beam but not aft of the beam.

Main thing for those who aren't modders to be aware of, being outside the ring is NOT a guarantee of safety, the actual detection distance is about 175% of the ring distance. Difference is aspect and crew quality, if you're facing directly toward/away from a destroyer with a novice crew they might not detect you inside the ring, if an elite crew is on your beam they could detect you outside the ring. Only way to find out how good their crew is would be the hard way, so doubling the distance is the best bet.

Sniper297 · 04-05-19, 04:07 PM

Testing, 123...

On the right is the original Fubuki in 1942 (no radar), on the left with visual and passive sonar reduced to 75%, active sonar increased to 150%. Going to play with these values in a campaign for a while, see how weird it gets.

KaleunMarco · 04-07-19, 06:38 PM

sniper, my friend, thank you for the graphics and explanations.

i encountered a differently config-ed DD while playing OpMonsun.
the A&B class DD seems to have three systems working. i am reading the .SNS file and guessing here.

Hydrophone128
Sonar128A (?) (N0x nodes?)
Radar286

so...would the longest range (circle) indicate visual or radar?
assuming the shortest two non-circles would be hydrophone and sonar, what is mystery-guest number #4?

Sniper297 · 04-07-19, 07:35 PM

Don't have 1.5, so don't have OpMonsun, so no Brit destroyers or Underzee Boots. I recall reading somewhere that on some of these supermods they disabled the visual range ring, I would guess that's what you have there - no visual range ring, outer is radar, second largest with the wedge cut out astern is the standard passive (hydrophone, something ending with a P), the semi circle is the standard active. The one shaped like a 1/3rd slice of pie is possibly another type of active sonar, no idea how they pulled that trick off.

What I got at the bottom of the Akizuki SNS file;

[Sensor 11]
NodeName=D01
LinkName=NULL
StartDate=19380101
EndDate=19451231

[Sensor 12]
NodeName=C01
LinkName=NULL
StartDate=19380101
EndDate=19451231

The "NULL" means it's not used at all, ever. What the D and C stand for I have no clue, so take a look at the SNS file for this A&B class and see if one of those is active. Toward the end of WWII the US was experimenting with a new type of sonar called FM, which was a separate system for detecting mines. I've also read a few references to the Japanese playing with MAD (Magnetic Anomaly Detector) but only in aircraft. So wild guess it's a different kind of active sonar, don't know what else it could be with that shape. Again, keep in mind the visible rings only show the average, the max range of whatever system you see the rings for is actually a little bigger depending on the AI crew - which there's no way of knowing.

Here's a little synopsis of the FM sonar carried by some US subs in 45;

https://www.historynet.com/uss-wahoo-vengeance.htm

04-08-19, 01:45 AM

C01 and D01 are the nodes for Radio Direction Finder and Radar Warning Receiver.

Not sure if they've ever been used in AI ships. I've never found any using them.

@KaleunMarco: since the situation you're displaying there is at night, I'd assume the longest radius circle is from radar.

KaleunMarco · 04-08-19, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sniper297

Don't have 1.5, so don't have OpMonsun, so no Brit destroyers or Underzee Boots. I recall reading somewhere that on some of these supermods they disabled the visual range ring, I would guess that's what you have there - no visual range ring, outer is radar, second largest with the wedge cut out astern is the standard passive (hydrophone, something ending with a P), the semi circle is the standard active. The one shaped like a 1/3rd slice of pie is possibly another type of active sonar, no idea how they pulled that trick off.

The "NULL" means it's not used at all, ever. What the D and C stand for I have no clue, so take a look at the SNS file for this A&B class and see if one of those is active. Toward the end of WWII the US was experimenting with a new type of sonar called FM, which was a separate system for detecting mines. I've also read a few references to the Japanese playing with MAD (Magnetic Anomaly Detector) but only in aircraft. So wild guess it's a different kind of active sonar, don't know what else it could be with that shape. Again, keep in mind the visible rings only show the average, the max range of whatever system you see the rings for is actually a little bigger depending on the AI crew - which there's no way of knowing.

i should have posted the .SNS values with the graphic. what can i say....
listed below are the Sensor definitions for the DD-A&B for the time period of the graphic, which is Jan-Feb 1943. i removed the other definitions in an effort to keep some control over the length of this post. as you can see, there are four related definitions, so it possible that visual is included even though it is mostly-dark at the time of contact.
[Sensor 1]
NodeName=O01
LinkName=Escort_Visual
StartDate=19380101
EndDate=19451231

[Sensor 3]
NodeName=H01
LinkName=Type128P
StartDate=19420601
EndDate=19430601

[Sensor 6]
NodeName=N01
LinkName=Type128A
StartDate=19410601
EndDate=19440101

[Sensor 9]
NodeName=R01
LinkName=Type286
StartDate=19410301
EndDate=19430301

i wonder where are the Visual and Radar definitions stored?

Sniper297 · 04-08-19, 05:08 PM

Answer to that is fairly simple, you need Silent 3ditor (was made for SH3 but also works for SH4);

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/down...o=file&id=4489

Using that, open the \Data\Library\AI_sensors.dat file. Where it says something like LinkName=Type128P in the SNS file, scroll down the list until you come to that one, then open the subdirectories until you get to the "sensor" that has the data you can edit. Example;

Even if you've never used a game editor before this one is pretty easy to learn, but don't forget to make backup copies of any files you're going to try editing just in case. Saves a lot of reinstalls if all you have to do is copy and paste the original file from a backup to overwrite the one you wrecked.

Hmmm, I have a sh3_missioneditor_v17.pdf that I got 6 years ago, can't find a current working link for where to download it, anybody know?

Meantime, here's the author's website;

http://s3d.skwas.com/docs.aspx

propbeanie · 04-08-19, 05:28 PM

I have that SHIII Mission Editor Manual v17 here, and have been waiting of someone of the group to reply to email attempts, but nothing yet, so I'll go ahead an put it to a site with better bandwidth than what I have, and change the link later...

The cover of it has:

Silent Hunter III
Mission Editor
Users Guide
Written and maintained by Dietrich on behalf of
17. Unterseebootsflottile »Nordfront«
http://nordfront.org/xvii/
Version v17
19 Mar 2010

It is probably the most comprehensive version there is, unless something is out there in the wild, but not just inside someone's grey matter...

It is a zip file, has a named folder, with the pdf inside of that.

Sniper297 · 04-08-19, 05:47 PM

Nice work. If SKWAS is still around someone might ask him if it can be uploaded here, would simplify things.

Forgot to say thanks, JapLance. I no longer have SH3 installed (StarForce copyguard screwed up my DVD drive to the point it's no longer usable for anything at all), but I suspect RDF and the radar warning stuff were leftovers from that.

KaleunMarco · 04-08-19, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sniper297

Answer to that is fairly simple, you need Silent 3ditor (was made for SH3 but also works for SH4);

Using that, open the \Data\Library\AI_sensors.dat file. Where it says something like LinkName=Type128P in the SNS file, scroll down the list until you come to that one, then open the subdirectories until you get to the "sensor" that has the data you can edit. Example;

Even if you've never used a game editor before this one is pretty easy to learn, but don't forget to make backup copies of any files you're going to try editing just in case. Saves a lot of reinstalls if all you have to do is copy and paste the original file from a backup to overwrite the one you wrecked.

ok, cool. i am very conversant with Silent3ditor.

what i needed was the file where the values are hidden.
so, AI_Visual_Sensors.Dat is the place and Escort Visual is the node, yes?

so if i am reading this correctly, the visual parms for a DD are from 0 to 180 degrees which is a semi-circle. at least it was when i was in the USN. so why are we seeing a full circle? rhetorical question. so confusing!

04-03-19, 10:58 PM	#1
Sniper297 The Old Man Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Philadelphia Shipyard Brig Posts: 1,386 Downloads: 160 Uploads: 19	Sonar ranges AI_sensors.dat Been trying to go the opposite way Ducimus went in this thread; www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=119272 To try and lower the psychic destroyer effect where they hear you from 2 miles away when you have the motors stopped. My thinking was to increase the active range and decrease the passive range, but near as I can tell there's no data in any individual IJN destroyer saying which sonar that particular class uses, or when? Found the type 3 (1, 3, and 5) and type 93 (1 and 2) A and P, but I notice there's also a type 3 M1P and M2P, are those for merchant ships? I'm setting up some test single missions in 42 and 44 to trial and error my way through what uses what, but if someone else has already done a list it would save me a lot of tedious testing.

04-07-19, 06:38 PM	#8
KaleunMarco Silent Hunter Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Chicago area, which is more dangerous than Omaha Beach. Posts: 3,910 Downloads: 433 Uploads: 27	sniper, my friend, thank you for the graphics and explanations. i encountered a differently config-ed DD while playing OpMonsun. the A&B class DD seems to have three systems working. i am reading the .SNS file and guessing here. Hydrophone128 Sonar128A (?) (N0x nodes?) Radar286 so...would the longest range (circle) indicate visual or radar? assuming the shortest two non-circles would be hydrophone and sonar, what is mystery-guest number #4? __________________ there are only two things in the world: submarines and targets. Fortis et stabilis et fidelis, semper ------------------------------------------------------------ Silent Hunter 4 1.5 Gold Edition on CDROM LAA enabled Dell XPS with 32 GB Ram running Win10

04-08-19, 05:08 PM	#12
Sniper297 The Old Man Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Philadelphia Shipyard Brig Posts: 1,386 Downloads: 160 Uploads: 19	Answer to that is fairly simple, you need Silent 3ditor (was made for SH3 but also works for SH4); http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/down...o=file&id=4489 Using that, open the \Data\Library\AI_sensors.dat file. Where it says something like LinkName=Type128P in the SNS file, scroll down the list until you come to that one, then open the subdirectories until you get to the "sensor" that has the data you can edit. Example; Even if you've never used a game editor before this one is pretty easy to learn, but don't forget to make backup copies of any files you're going to try editing just in case. Saves a lot of reinstalls if all you have to do is copy and paste the original file from a backup to overwrite the one you wrecked. Hmmm, I have a sh3_missioneditor_v17.pdf that I got 6 years ago, can't find a current working link for where to download it, anybody know? Meantime, here's the author's website; http://s3d.skwas.com/docs.aspx Last edited by Sniper297; 04-08-19 at 05:20 PM.

04-08-19, 05:28 PM	#13
propbeanie CTD - it's not just a job Join Date: May 2016 Location: One hour from Music City USA! Posts: 9,742 Downloads: 439 Uploads: 2	I have that SHIII Mission Editor Manual v17 here, and have been waiting of someone of the group to reply to email attempts, but nothing yet, so I'll go ahead an put it to a site with better bandwidth than what I have, and change the link later... The cover of it has: Silent Hunter III Mission Editor Users Guide Written and maintained by Dietrich on behalf of 17. Unterseebootsflottile »Nordfront« http://nordfront.org/xvii/ Version v17 19 Mar 2010 It is probably the most comprehensive version there is, unless something is out there in the wild, but not just inside someone's grey matter... It is a zip file, has a named folder, with the pdf inside of that. __________________ "...and bollocks to the naysayer/s" - Jimbuna

04-04-19, 04:31 AM	#3
Sniper297 The Old Man Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Philadelphia Shipyard Brig Posts: 1,386 Downloads: 160 Uploads: 19	Gracias! That helps a lot, apparently also includes radar and the dates they get it.

04-04-19, 10:52 PM	#5
Sniper297 The Old Man Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Philadelphia Shipyard Brig Posts: 1,386 Downloads: 160 Uploads: 19	Odd thing I found browsing through some of the destroyers SMS files, all of them list LinkName=AI_Visual for the visual range - so change that and the visual range ring changes for all. I had noticed the screwup between hydrophone versus "sonar" (actually the pinger is called the transducer, sonar = both hydrophone and transducer), you'd think with a 50-50 chance of getting it right...they did the same thing with radar A scope versus PPI scope, exactly backwards. Their math is rather weird too, I'm guessing the rings are average range, for example the type 21 radar max is 14000 yards, the outer ring around the Akizuki (has type 21 in 44) is exactly 8000 yards. Change the range to 7000 in the AI_sensors.dat file and the ring is 4000 yards, so it changes proportionately, halve the range and halve the circle. What I'm playing with right now is doubled active sonar so the semi circle is twice as big, with the passive halved. That cuts way down on the apparent psychic effect where you're creeping along at 2 knots five miles away and one of them suddenly makes a beeline straight for you, but it may be a little too much because they get really stupid and charge off in weird directions sometimes. Doubling the active seems to work well because you hear pinging all the time when you're inside the task force or convoy, really keeps you on your toes. As for cans of worms, right now I just have all the passive sonars adjusted for the same max range, for testing purposes it really doesn't matter what which ship had in October of 1943 if I'm testing in 1942. Eventually I'll start with the backup copy of the original and use the calculator to increase or reduce everything by whatever percentage balances the difficulty best. That's pretty much what I did with the "Bang for your Buck" mod, take the default min/max blast and radius values for each torpedo type, multiply by 125, 135, 150 percent or whatever. If I do eventually upload this it will probably be similar with a choice of difficulty levels.

04-05-19, 02:27 PM	#6
Sniper297 The Old Man Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Philadelphia Shipyard Brig Posts: 1,386 Downloads: 160 Uploads: 19	Update. Before I start, main thing that caught me in a trap several years ago was opening the AI_sensors.dat file with S3D and jumping to a conclusion. First four datablocks in the file; Node_AI_Radar Node_AI_Visual Node_AI_Hydrophone Node_AI_Sonar Well, this will be easy, just edit the first four. Nope. NONE of the IJN warships I've looked at so far use 1. 3. or 4, ALL of them, from the Yamato to the small gunboat, use number 2. Silly, considering distance to the horizon is dependent on your height above the water, but every SNS file starts with LinkName=AI_Visual. After that they differ depending on class and year, and the rings (circles pies half circles wedges whatever) you see are an average of the actual range - math seems to indicate the max range is about 1.72 times the radius of the ring you see on the chart view. Here's an Akizuki in June 1944; Lower right corner numbers are the actual max range followed by the measurement of the ring in the game, for example VISUAL 9500 5600 indicates the number in the file for max range followed by the measured number. (Again never changes, all vessels all dates use that one datablock.) The wedge cut out of the passive sonar is the "baffles", can't hear anything but your own propellers and machinery noise behind you. So if you're in that cutout wedge you can speed up, the evil villains can't hear you in that wedge. The half circle in front is the way WWII ship sonar transducers (the actual "pinger") were designed, mounted under the bow and capable of sweeping beam to beam but not aft of the beam. Main thing for those who aren't modders to be aware of, being outside the ring is NOT a guarantee of safety, the actual detection distance is about 175% of the ring distance. Difference is aspect and crew quality, if you're facing directly toward/away from a destroyer with a novice crew they might not detect you inside the ring, if an elite crew is on your beam they could detect you outside the ring. Only way to find out how good their crew is would be the hard way, so doubling the distance is the best bet.

04-05-19, 04:07 PM	#7
Sniper297 The Old Man Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Philadelphia Shipyard Brig Posts: 1,386 Downloads: 160 Uploads: 19	Testing, 123... On the right is the original Fubuki in 1942 (no radar), on the left with visual and passive sonar reduced to 75%, active sonar increased to 150%. Going to play with these values in a campaign for a while, see how weird it gets.

04-07-19, 07:35 PM	#9
Sniper297 The Old Man Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Philadelphia Shipyard Brig Posts: 1,386 Downloads: 160 Uploads: 19	Don't have 1.5, so don't have OpMonsun, so no Brit destroyers or Underzee Boots. I recall reading somewhere that on some of these supermods they disabled the visual range ring, I would guess that's what you have there - no visual range ring, outer is radar, second largest with the wedge cut out astern is the standard passive (hydrophone, something ending with a P), the semi circle is the standard active. The one shaped like a 1/3rd slice of pie is possibly another type of active sonar, no idea how they pulled that trick off. What I got at the bottom of the Akizuki SNS file; [Sensor 11] NodeName=D01 LinkName=NULL StartDate=19380101 EndDate=19451231 [Sensor 12] NodeName=C01 LinkName=NULL StartDate=19380101 EndDate=19451231 The "NULL" means it's not used at all, ever. What the D and C stand for I have no clue, so take a look at the SNS file for this A&B class and see if one of those is active. Toward the end of WWII the US was experimenting with a new type of sonar called FM, which was a separate system for detecting mines. I've also read a few references to the Japanese playing with MAD (Magnetic Anomaly Detector) but only in aircraft. So wild guess it's a different kind of active sonar, don't know what else it could be with that shape. Again, keep in mind the visible rings only show the average, the max range of whatever system you see the rings for is actually a little bigger depending on the AI crew - which there's no way of knowing. Here's a little synopsis of the FM sonar carried by some US subs in 45; https://www.historynet.com/uss-wahoo-vengeance.htm

04-08-19, 01:45 AM	#10
JapLance Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	C01 and D01 are the nodes for Radio Direction Finder and Radar Warning Receiver. Not sure if they've ever been used in AI ships. I've never found any using them. @KaleunMarco: since the situation you're displaying there is at night, I'd assume the longest radius circle is from radar.

04-08-19, 05:47 PM	#14
Sniper297 The Old Man Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Philadelphia Shipyard Brig Posts: 1,386 Downloads: 160 Uploads: 19	Nice work. If SKWAS is still around someone might ask him if it can be uploaded here, would simplify things. Forgot to say thanks, JapLance. I no longer have SH3 installed (StarForce copyguard screwed up my DVD drive to the point it's no longer usable for anything at all), but I suspect RDF and the radar warning stuff were leftovers from that.