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Old 04-17-18, 01:02 AM   #1
Flaskegaard
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Default Historicly accurate AI ASW capabilities...

Greetings,
I am wondering if there is a way to set the AI ASW capabilities based on historically accurate Japanese ASW abilities. I have found some mods make the Japanese ASW abilities nearly super human in the game, while others seem to indicate the AI sonar operators are either asleep, or deaf....or so it seems. Just curious if there is a way to adjust the AI ASW capabilities to as near the realistic capabilities the Japanese used during the war....i.e, In one instance, I was headed home with empty tubes. I came face to face with a large convoy that I couldn't avoid....I went deep...350 feet...I passed under a thermal cold layer at 150 feet...I gave the lead destroyer a 0 AOB, and rigged for silent running, and went to all stop, just before it reached me...I thought there is no way they will detect me....Suddenly, the lead destroyer started pinging me furiously, and started dropping depth charges! In another example, I was at periscope depth, and just sank a freighter in a convoy. A searching destroyer passed in front of me at 1500 yards, doing 28 knots. I was going to slowly go down to 200 feet at 1/3rd for a reload, when suddenly, the destroyer made a hard left u-turn and passed right over me as I was only at 100 feet....I thought I was a goner!...but no! the destroyer was just circling back, and had not detected me at all! Thanks in advance for any suggestions.....

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Old 04-17-18, 07:56 AM   #2
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Stay tuned........
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Old 04-17-18, 10:38 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaskegaard View Post
Greetings,
I am wondering if there is a way to set the AI ASW capabilities based on historically accurate Japanese ASW abilities....... Thanks in advance for any suggestions.....
There is however Rockin Robbins 'Stay Tuned' remark leads me to believe the FOTRSU mod may release another Beta, or possibly a final release... coming to computers near you! The last Beta is pretty good if you're looking for a change. They seem to be trying for a more historically accurate experience...

[REL] FOTRS Ultimate Project
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=226270

RFB strove for accuracy. You could compare notes/files using your settings and the settings in the RFB mod.

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Old 04-17-18, 02:18 PM   #4
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Great!...I can't remember which mod I was using when the destroyer passed right over the top of me without detecting me...it may have been stock. However, I was using TMO 2.2 when the destroyer picked me up at 350 feet, 200 feet below a cold layer, 0-AOB with stopped engines....that destroyer captain should have been decorated by the Emperor himself.....Where in the files do you go to compare the AI ASW capabilities?

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Old 04-17-18, 08:12 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaskegaard View Post
Great!...I can't remember which mod I was using when the destroyer passed right over the top of me without detecting me...it may have been stock. However, I was using TMO 2.2 when the destroyer picked me up at 350 feet, 200 feet below a cold layer, 0-AOB with stopped engines....that destroyer captain should have been decorated by the Emperor himself.....Where in the files do you go to compare the AI ASW capabilities?
Okay, I've been looking hard to find my quick and dirty fixes notes and will put something together for you, and post something here tomorrow. Sorry.

I'll be back ; )
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Old 04-18-18, 08:19 PM   #6
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Try this by Ducimus:

[TEC] Adjusting the AI - cliff notes version
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=111395

It's a little dusty....

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Old 04-18-18, 10:20 PM   #7
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RSRDC changes enemy AI and surface traffic to as historically accurate as the game will allow.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/down...rt=date&page=2

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Old 04-19-18, 05:37 AM   #8
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I've been playing RDRDC, and I have seen the DD's getting harder to avoid as the game (in years) progresses.
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Old 04-19-18, 07:08 PM   #9
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There's no historical answer because of numerous things in the code that can't be changed. For many TMO is very hard, but once you learn how it responds to it's AI, even it becomes easy. TMO was sort of a method to make it more realistic by making some things harder than they would be to makeup for the things you can't change that make the game unrealistically easy.

Basically the escorts always ping, even tho you can't hear it, it's just a matter if you fall within the cone of it's path it comes on as if it's always on, although angle, depth, weather, speed, etc., play some role. Just learn not to get in the path of the sonar cone.
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Old 04-20-18, 07:59 AM   #10
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My intention is to have Fotrs Ultimate portray the AI more realistically. Meaning, I'm reworking the entire Ultimate AI sensor group (visual; sonar; radar) to be more historical in their values and capabilities. Anyone wishing to think the Japanese had, or even used (if they had it), the same capabilities as other nations during the time period haven't done much research on the subject. The fact is the Japanese prosecuted the war in their own way. Unlike the European Theater of large convoys having well equipped escorts for protection, the Japanese seldom had merchants in large numbers together, or supplied these "second rate" vessels with protection that was even half as capable as the Allies. These facts are described throughout the findings of the American "follow-up" of the war by such documents as the United States Strategic Bombing Survey of the Pacific......of which the "The War against Japanese Transportation (1945)" is only a small part of.

Other facts persist after the American studies of Japanese equipment and doctrine......they just weren't as capably as we had thought, nor did they possess the same capabilities as the German technology. These two "team members" did not have the same ideals toward scientific performance. The idea the Japanese should perform as the Germans is just not accurate. Nor, where they on the same level as the American technology. The thinking that the Pacific war had the same fundamental aspects as the Atlantic is just not correct.

So, it's my opinion and plan to have the game portray this in game play. As Double R said....stay tuned!
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Old 04-20-18, 02:24 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnScurvy View Post
My intention is to have Fotrs Ultimate portray the AI more realistically. Meaning, I'm reworking the entire Ultimate AI sensor group (visual; sonar; radar) to be more historical in their values and capabilities. Anyone wishing to think the Japanese had, or even used (if they had it), the same capabilities as other nations during the time period haven't done much research on the subject. The fact is the Japanese prosecuted the war in their own way. Unlike the European Theater of large convoys having well equipped escorts for protection, the Japanese seldom had merchants in large numbers together, or supplied these "second rate" vessels with protection that was even half as capable as the Allies. These facts are described throughout the findings of the American "follow-up" of the war by such documents as the United States Strategic Bombing Survey of the Pacific......of which the "The War against Japanese Transportation (1945)" is only a small part of.

Other facts persist after the American studies of Japanese equipment and doctrine......they just weren't as capably as we had thought, nor did they possess the same capabilities as the German technology. These two "team members" did not have the same ideals toward scientific performance. The idea the Japanese should perform as the Germans is just not accurate. Nor, where they on the same level as the American technology. The thinking that the Pacific war had the same fundamental aspects as the Atlantic is just not correct.

So, it's my opinion and plan to have the game portray this in game play. As Double R said....stay tuned!
Tempting me to load up again and hit the seas. I assume you're reworking the env, one thing I hated was the inability to do a night surface attack and get close enuf to turn around and escape, so I overhauled mostly just the night env files mainly making nights much darker and used the light settings in env to adjust the AI and never had to to touch TMO's config, just much more realistic with light settings and letting the moon brighten things up as it got higher in the sky. If you haven't, another thing easy and I think realistic is to cut the lights off on merchants and capital ships. If really does make it easy to target them and get quick stad readings. I think I also adjusted angle of lights so they didn't reach out quite as far. I do think I adjusted the config file for angle of the sub to the enemy down just a touch too. I could basically on the right nights get within 1500 yards and shoot , turn around and leave slowly until I had angle, just have to watch speed, but always some risk you might get pegged if you didn't plan your attack in and out carefully
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Old 04-21-18, 07:52 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Armistead
Tempting me to load up again and hit the seas. I assume you're reworking the env, one thing I hated was the inability to do a night surface attack and get close enuf to turn around and escape, so I overhauled mostly just the night env files mainly making nights much darker and used the light settings in env to adjust the AI and never had to to touch TMO's config, just much more realistic with light settings and letting the moon brighten things up as it got higher in the sky. If you haven't, another thing easy and I think realistic is to cut the lights off on merchants and capital ships. If really does make it easy to target them and get quick stad readings. I think I also adjusted angle of lights so they didn't reach out quite as far. I do think I adjusted the config file for angle of the sub to the enemy down just a touch too. I could basically on the right nights get within 1500 yards and shoot , turn around and leave slowly until I had angle, just have to watch speed, but always some risk you might get pegged if you didn't plan your attack in and out carefully
In a short answer....yes, this is what I'm doing.

Presently Fotrs Ultimate v0.63 has its own "environmental" modifications, and will be changing further in future updates. I don't have my images readily available of the different views that I used to have (thanks to Photobucket), but to see the difference between TMO, RFB, or Stock compared to Ultimate just fire up the default first mission of the game (Porpoise sub, Pearl Harbor base, mission start Dec. 8, 1941, "at sea" start position). Go to the Bridge and look back over your right shoulder towards the Island of Oahu. In Ultimate, the island is seen fairly clearly......at the same 5 mile distance, the other mods will only show a "reflection" of the island in the water?!?

The night capabilities are exactly what I'm working on, as well as day, using the Ultimate environmental world as its guide to sensor capabilities. You can't just set the AI Visual MaximumRange to a certain figure, and not have it relate to the actual rendered world around you?! I'm finding this has been the case with many attempts at sensor adjustments......picking a figure, and expecting it to work in the rendered environment.......it won't work as such.

I can tell you this from my work, there are hard coded aspects in the stock game that are not correctable, and will continue to be a factor against common sense! One is the expected AI Visual sensor performance of a subs profile will be smaller when it is "head on" compared to an "a beam" profile. It's the exact opposite!! Our developers have "switched" this expected result, and it's making the visual performance (either night of day) hard to adjust without compromising in other ways. I've seen this time and time again in my tests, and I'm disappointed to know the visual detection works like it does. I've not gotten beyond the AI Visual sensor yet......I hope the Sonar/Radar capabilities are not like this. Only complete testing will reveal if they too are compromised. However, the basic expectation of providing a low profile visual silhouette to an enemy is going to lower your chances of detection is unattainable. A fact only testing with controlled parameters have proven.
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Old 04-21-18, 10:35 AM   #13
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I
Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnScurvy View Post
My intention is to have Fotrs Ultimate portray the AI more realistically. Meaning, I'm reworking the entire Ultimate AI sensor group (visual; sonar; radar) to be more historical in their values and capabilities. Anyone wishing to think the Japanese had, or even used (if they had it), the same capabilities as other nations during the time period haven't done much research on the subject. The fact is the Japanese prosecuted the war in their own way. Unlike the European Theater of large convoys having well equipped escorts for protection, the Japanese seldom had merchants in large numbers together, or supplied these "second rate" vessels with protection that was even half as capable as the Allies. These facts are described throughout the findings of the American "follow-up" of the war by such documents as the United States Strategic Bombing Survey of the Pacific......of which the "The War against Japanese Transportation (1945)" is only a small part of.

Other facts persist after the American studies of Japanese equipment and doctrine......they just weren't as capably as we had thought, nor did they possess the same capabilities as the German technology. These two "team members" did not have the same ideals toward scientific performance. The idea the Japanese should perform as the Germans is just not accurate. Nor, where they on the same level as the American technology. The thinking that the Pacific war had the same fundamental aspects as the Atlantic is just not correct.

So, it's my opinion and plan to have the game portray this in game play. As Double R said....stay tuned!

I totally agree with you CapnScurvy.
The Japanese war philosophy was totally different from the Germans and the allies, whether you speak in terms of attack or defense I'm reading several things about the battles of the Pacific, and I'm surprise from how the Japanese have "thinked" the war( a great potential used very badly) , I'm sure yours is the best way to try to create realism

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Old 05-24-18, 08:20 AM   #14
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Our next version of FOTRSU won't have the AI changes discussed here. But we are working on it. There's a reason why no mod until now has made this happen.


My theory is that the game devs of SH4, having SH3 as a base and not understanding the workings of the various modules, just wrote patches instead of tweaking the underlying modules, which use the configuration files to adjust their parameters.


So you make an adjustment to a visual detection, and your change goes to the old SH3 module. But the SH4 devs kludged it with a patch that pays no attention to your configuration file change, or actually has the opposite effect to what you intended.


We've returned to the old DOS program "rules" where you bought dBaseIII, read the manual that told you how it "should" work, then with experience you slowly figured out how it DID work, and then finally you could use the program.
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Old 05-27-18, 02:02 PM   #15
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Capn Scury wrote: Other facts persist after the American studies of Japanese equipment and doctrine......they just weren't as capably as we had thought, nor did they possess the same capabilities as the German technology. These two "team members" did not have the same ideals toward scientific performance. The idea the Japanese should perform as the Germans is just not accurate. Nor, where they on the same level as the American technology. The thinking that the Pacific war had the same fundamental aspects as the Atlantic is just not correct.


Additionally, the Japanese believed it was more honorable to be on warships going after the enemy - the forces on merchant protection duty were often those who had not performed at the highest levels. And those who performed the highest were assigned to warships going after the enemy.

I assume there were instances where highly qualified crews ended up protecting convoys but it was not the norm.
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