[REL] Realistic Sinking Physics

[tater]

Cool, I'll be trying that.

[Bando]

Originally Posted by Jace11

Ok, in a few of my tests I have hit tankers with a fuel cargo...

The tanker does not blow up even after several hits, there are only small fires etc as the tanker starts to slowly sink. Once the tanker is completely flooded, and underwater, with maybe just the stern or bow showing but going down fast, the massive series of splinter explosions occurs, sometimes many of them...

Why is this? And can it be fixed so when we hit a fuel cargo we get a big explosion again as the torpedo ignites fuel / ammo...

As it is, we have the explosion after a 3 hour delay and when the ship is under-water - this is unrealistic and I've observed it several times now...

I expect the problem is the cargo fuel / ammo compartments I will take a look and do some testing...

In the zone.cfg file there are settings for crushing depths for each and every ships component. If a ship sinks with it's fuel bunkers intact, the crush depth for the fuel bunkers is set at 100 ft for example, that at that depth the fuel bunker is destroyed. It will blow up at that depth. I've observed with some ships that the blast was so huge it even consumed liferaft at the surface.
It adds a way of sinking. There are a lot of ways for ships to sink, as are in real life.

I think I'll stick to the Die Slowly mod, for the compartment job and the effects added.

Werner, thanks for your reply.

Reg
Bando

[kv29]

yes, I heard several ships expoding underwater, this is not good. The explosions are related to hitpoints, so ships loose all their hitpoints only underwater with the mod.

[WernerSobe]

yes i have extended crush depths. maybe to much for the fuel bunkers.

and @jace are you sure you have loaded it? the propability for ignition of fuel and ammo is 90%. If you are not sure run the test mission coming with mod. The last cargo ship is a tanker full with oil. Ive only seen it slowly sinking once it almost always explodes.

@leo what i dont like about "die slowly" its dealing with hitpoints. I like to sink ships like they realy sink, by flooding. Back in the past there was a mod for sh3 NYGM that completely eliminated hitpoint damage. All ships had like 100 times more hp as usual so only flooding damage was possible. I didnt wanted to go that way so im somewhere in between. Its still possible to sink a ship by structural damage when it is hit by several torpedoes in one spot. That was not possible with NYGM. In "die slowly" the most sinkings are still due to loss of hitpoints and structural damage. There is also some flooding but thats not enough. They blow up sooner before they take to much water.

Extend the flooding times, increase floatability for all compartments and increase all hitpoints (or reduce torpedo dmg) and ill be happy wit that.

[Bando]

It's the compartments that get crushed, destroyed and blows up. It's entirely possible. The beauty of it (although I've seen this only once) it can trigger the next compartment. What I mean is , when an aft compartment blows (by torpedo or guns or crushdepth) it goes of with whatever is in there (oil, fuel, ammo and so on). This may trigger the next compartment, then the next and so on. You probably seen that in the movies as a submerged sub blows. It looks like the blast is travelling through the ship. As said, only saw it once in this game with the new effects added (the new effects are in die slowly 16 as of now) but what an awesome sight it was.

Bando

[Jace11]

yup i added fuel to them, I can't work out why I get the catastrophic explosion just when they go under...?? No idea, could be crash depths, but I doubt it.. The only structures that have big explosions are the NavDeck and CommandDeck, but at the end of the Zones.cfg is the oil explosion effect. I am guessing Fuelbunkers are not taking enough damage on the first hit to trigger the big explosion, it shouldn't be flooding related...but that is the only thing you changed...right....

I noticed some critical chance changes tooo..

[kv29]

How could a compartment being crushed by pressure make the oil to ignite or even explode underwater, and with no air?
Pressure does not make such things in rl. If a tanker sinks and there are no fires, they go quietly underwater and start leaking oil all over the surface, that would be a nice effect in water.

[WernerSobe]

the chain reaction works from compartment to compartment and even from ship to another ship. During my tests ive placed the tanker and the freighter with ammunitions to close to each other. Once the freighter blew up the tanker also catched on fire and blew up too few seconds later without taking damage from torpedoes.

[leovampire]

Certain compartments on a ship in real life were set up with extra armor during the war to help protect vital area's that would sink a ship faster or disable it. Second in the ZON files for each ship some of the merchant ships have armor and hit point levels higher than the Battel ships which is silly. So they have been adjusted so that the biger war ships are harder to sink than they use to be. Second with the actual compartments set up for the ships you can get a cascade flood effect that will move from compartment to compartment sinking the ship. But with no Ammo set up in an Ammo bunker you can't get an explosion out of that compartment that would damage the one next to it as it would in real life. A fuel bunker you have to have for the engines to run but with no fuel in them to burn or explode why bother having them in the files in the first place other than sinking times for the ships themselves.

There is a lot more that comes into play on a ship at sea than just how long it takes to flood a compartment it is what they are carrying in each compartment wether it is Ammo, fuel, oil, or regular cargo or even nothing. But how many ships in WWII had wodden decks on average? Almost all actualy so without fires or reactions to the deck gun hit or torpedo hit that you can see at times just having a longer sinking time isn't enough. I agree yes some ships should take longer to sink but at the same time there should be a reaction to certain cargo's or area's of the ships that are vital to it's running or being able to stay afloat.

If you shoot a car in the gas tank with a gun what happens? It explodes and damages the rest of the car correct? And if you use a 50 caliber rifle and shoot the engine the oil ignites and burns and leaks out and the engine won't run anymore. If you don't set up the Zone's file to understand and have those reactions to situations like an explosion type breach from a torpedo you do not get realistic sinkings.

I am not knocking what you are doing don't get me wrong what I am trying to say is that there is so much more to a and in a simulation like this than just flooding times. In real life it depends on how thick the Steal or Iron is for that area of a ship wich is the hit points equivelant in a Simulation on a PC and Armor is a fact of life for ships tanks planes and buildings in war and survivability. So all of that has to come into play in your adjustments. Just consider it when you adjust your Flooding times what else comes into the picture for that section of the ship.

[Jace11]

Well the only thing I can think of is that the reduced damage of the torpedos Min25 max 50 is not delivering enough HP damage to completely destroy the fuel bunkers and trigger the oil explosion...

restoring the old torp damage may fix this... I will test...

alternative may be to reduce hitpoints on fuel bunkers to 50 also?!?!

[leovampire]

That the game comes with and patched with. And to be more realistic I reduced the effect of the deck gun shells also so that you have to hit an area a couple of times before you get a hole. But what's nice is when you catch a ship carrying Ammo Containers and you hit one on the deck BOOM and it does help sink a ship faster especialy if you penitrate a cargo hold full of them. Like taking a fire cracker and holding a closed fist around it when it goes off well needless to say that takes care of that hand. Same for an enclosed area of a ship with weapon grade explosioves.

[WernerSobe]

Its not just flooding times i have increased this is just an eye candy. I guess you havent tried the mod right?

I want to say that the both mods are not quite about same thing. While "die slowly" is much more about how the ship is taking damage and geting destroyed, Real Sinking Phyisics is much more about sinking mechanics. So much more about how it sinks.

But all the damaging effects like exploding engine rooms and fuel bunkers are also in here it all works the same. Also i have different sinking mechanics for different type of cargo. Fuel in example is lighter then water and ships with fuel bunkers intakt will more likely stay afloat. Fuelbunkers will also flood longer because it must be replaced with water etc... there are just few examples.

Basicly what i am trying here is to get away from overall hitpoints. We are not playing quake after all. Thats a good example. When you get hit with a bullet you die not because your hitpoints are all gone but because you lose blood or your heart stopped beating.

Same with ships. Naturaly ships sink not because they have no more hitpoints but because they have took to much water. Physicaly that means to sink a ship you must increase the total weight of the ship over the weight of the water that ship displace. In other words there is no way around, to sink a ship you must fill it with water. Be it by making holes in its hull or capsizing it. If you want to sink it, put water in, in one way or another.

So Hitpoints are not that important. Give a ship one million hitpoints and you can still sink it by puting more water inside then it can take to stay afloat.

Now the problem with stock (and "die slowly") is that the hitpoints are in most cases consumed first, before the ship realy has a chance to be filled with water. And when the ship loses its all hitpoints it instantly fills all its compartments and sinks in a very unrealistic way (like a stone).

The problem is not entirely with flooding times but much more with floatability with each compartment. To send it down by flooding you need to destroy to many compartments. In my mod ive increased their floatability. Meaning that each compartment is much more important for floatability of entire ship.

Ill try explain on example.

Lets say we have a vessel with 300 hitpoints and 100 floatability. It has 4 compartments of equal size (to make it easier) and each compartment has a floatability of 35.

Now it takes a torpedo hit with 160 dmg in its first compartment. The compartment fills with water. Overall hitpoints are now reduced to 140 and overall floatability is down to 65.

Another torpedo hits it for 160 dmg in its second compartment. Now it has no more hitpoints and will just explode and sink like a stone but lets ignore this and see what happens with compartments. The overall floatability is now down to 30. One more compartment must be filled to sink it.

Now what i have done with this mod is i have increased the floatability for compartments to lets say 65 each and reduced the torpedo damage by half.

First torpedo hits the first compartment and reduces the hitpoints to 220 and the filling compartment reduces overall floatability down to 35.

Next one reduces the hitpoints to 140 and the filling compartment reduces the floatability to zero. Meaning ships total weight is now higher then its displacement and it starts sinking, not like a stone but like a real ship. Depending on how the water is distributed inside the hull it will maybe flip over one side or dive in with the bow and then break appart like titanic. Thats what this mod is about.

[leovampire]

I came on a little strong and did it improperly and should have approached you
in a private message I appologize for that.

Second I do see where you are comming from and what your trying to accomplish and recognize that your putting some serious time into it.

Now for a question did you actualy set up new and seperate cargo type holds for the ships to get the results you are talking about? I am asking this because this wasn't done from the getgo in the game files from what I can see. Or are you using just what is available already?

And yes I did download it and have started to go through it as of yesterday to compair your work and results with what I am doing and Redwine and PCelt came up with as well.

But if you want to get the proper results your looking for then you should make the stock torpedo's for the game get the desired results. I know Redwine hasn't changed anything for the torpedo's except make it so the impact blast tends to give the ship a quick lift up from the water or a quick down draft from the sudden intake of water rushing into the ship from the hole it made.

If you can make this work with the stock torpedo's then my hat is off to you and I'll bow as well.

But the ships do not sink like a rock with Die Slowly. Have you played the game with all the stock stuff and see the results of the ships sinkings before checking his out now that was a rock sinking.

[Redwine]

Hi WernerSobe...

At first, many thanks for your job and effort improving this game for the subcommunity !

Your "way" is so good ans sounds interesting.

The game give us many ways to send a ship to the sea floor.

You can reach its hit points, you can flood the ship, you can produce secondary explosions to reach the hitpoints, you can have a blend.

All ways are interesnting.

Was not my intention to make a comment here, specially because i like your way.... but you wrote some things wrong about Die Slowly.

Originally Posted by WernerSobe

Now the problem with stock (and "die slowly") is that the hitpoints are in most cases consumed first, before the ship realy has a chance to be filled with water. And when the ship loses its all hitpoints it instantly fills all its compartments and sinks in a very unrealistic way (like a stone).

Originally Posted by WernerSobe

Another torpedo hits it for 160 dmg in its second compartment. Now it has no more hitpoints and will just explode and sink like a stone

Die Slowly produce many diferent ways to sink into ships...

Some times you reach the ships hitpoints and they sinks like as a rock... but not always.

Some times the hitpoints are reached by the secondary explosions.

Some times they NEVER sinks....

Some times you hit a ship, and fail some of the torps, or you are enforced to dive by escorts, and you hit a single torp into a ship... and it sinks by flooding, exclusivelly by flooding.

It was our intention to make all them well balanced but may be not a good balance reached, may be the ships sinking by flooding are not too much, but they are there.

Just today, testing some new adds, i play a mission where i attacked a task force, and two of the ships sinks only by flooding.

Some others was hited and explodes into a big ball of fire, and sinks as a rock as you commented, but it is not the only way to sink into Die Slowly.

Die Slowly produce a sink by flooding, of course if you launch 4 torps against a merchants it will not happen, but according the ship, you can hit it with one or two torps and the ships still sailing and maintaining speed, and start up to flood and after many minutes it sinks far from you by flodding exclusivelly.

In real life there was many extrange ways to sink, WW II Kaptains report some times, ships sinking in less than 30 seconds by a single hit... ( i remember the Kpt. Krestchmer comments) but he comented some times his bad feels when some times there was ships taking many torps.

There was ships which flames by days before sink, o never sinks.

It is too hard to modelate all those probabilities, and it is more hard to obtain them modding.

I played many time ago the NYGM settings, and IMHO, all extremes are not my pleasure.

If you have the ships sinking only by reaching hitpoints, you will become into the rutine and tired of that, but if all ships sinks only by flooding, will be the same... just a personal opinion, it is not a rule.

Then IMHO teh best is too have lot of diferent behaviours.

More easy to say than to obtain....

Ships sinking by reaching hitpoints, using few and using lot of torps.

Ships sinking by hitpoints, using few torps and having the remaining hitpoints after some time by secondary explosions.

Ships sinking by flooding only, with few damage by torps.

Ships with severe damage wich NEVER SINKS.

But we are modders, not developers... we work with the files we can have access.

We attempt to do that, the best we can, but not always the things result as we want... :rotfl:

Plus, it is imposible to satisfy all the diferent people's tastes and requests. :rotfl:

With the new settings into Stage 16, ships become a little bit more easy to sink... sure we need to rework it if we have claims, but one of the initial objetives of Die Slowly was to eliminates the ships wich need too much torps to sink.



After all it is a game, not the real life, many people want to enjoy, have amazing explosions and graphics, extrage ways to sink, to take wonderful screenshots...



Any way i love your job, and apreciate a lot your effort and job to improve this game for the subcommunity.

Here it is not the matter a match between mods, the matter is to work and to improve the game for the subcommunity.

And all we are done that...

So... if you need some thing from our experience, please, do not feel limited to ask or request some thing.

A new time... manay many thanks for your job and effort... !!!

[ReallyDedPoet]

Originally Posted by Redwine

Here it is not the matter a match between mods, the matter is to work and to improve the game for the subcommunity.

Just stuck my head in here for a bit. Liked what you said above in the quote RW

The community appreciates all of the great work done by modders in an effort to make the experience the best it can be Discussions like the ones in this thread are part of that process.
Again, thanks for your efforts


RDP