Argentine navy lost contact with sub [UPDATE: SUB FOUND]

[Onkel Neal]

Hopes Dashed, Relatives of Argentine Submarine Crew Turn to Grief and Anger

“For 15 years, the navy has been neglected,” said Itatí Leguizamón, the wife of Germán Oscar Suárez, a radar operator on the vessel.

As if to add insult to injury, the explosion came to light only after analysts from the United States government and an international nuclear weapons monitor detected it and told the Argentines. Vessels from the United States, Britain, Brazil and Chile have been combing the seas as part of the search; the Argentine Navy’s four P3-B maritime patrol aircraft have been grounded and unavailable for deployment, according to Jane’s Research.

While the Navy did not formally given up hope of finding the crew, relatives began referring to their loved ones in the past tense. If the sailors perished, it would be the deadliest submarine catastrophe since the sinking of the Kursk — a Russian vessel brought down by a misfired weapon in 2000 — and the Argentine military’s largest loss of life since the Falklands War of 1982.

[Jimbuna]

The BBC article on the situation:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-42100620

[fitzcarraldo]

For the crew of the ARA San Juan.
In ethernal patrol.




Eternal Father, strong to save,
Whose arm hath bound the restless wave,
Who bidd'st the mighty ocean deep
Its own appointed limits keep;
Oh, hear us when we cry to Thee,
For those in peril on the sea!

O Christ! Whose voice the waters heard
And hushed their raging at Thy word,
Who walkedst on the foaming deep,
And calm amidst its rage didst sleep;
Oh, hear us when we cry to Thee,
For those in peril on the sea!

Most Holy Spirit! Who didst brood
Upon the chaos dark and rude,
And bid its angry tumult cease,
And give, for wild confusion, peace;
Oh, hear us when we cry to Thee,
For those in peril on the sea!

O Trinity of love and power!
Our brethren's shield in danger's hour;
From rock and tempest, fire and foe,
Protect them wheresoe'er they go;
Thus evermore shall rise to Thee
Glad hymns of praise from land and sea.

[Jimbuna]

I hope you don't mind me merging the threads but it is probably more appropriate because they are the same topic.

Fair winds and following seas to all those lost.

~SALUTE~

[speed150mph]

Jive turkey, one of the guys I'm subscribed to on YouTube, is a retired us navy sonar tech.

He just released this video of him analyzing the sonar graphs of the event that occurred after last contact. He seems to believe that some type of explosion or hull failure occurred, followed a minute later by a full emergancy blow, and possibly the sound of it settling on the bottom.

Link to video

[Rufus Shinra]

May they rest in peace. The sea is a harsh mistress who takes too many brave souls.

[Etiane]

"Ara San Juan": Sad certainty-the Argentine Navy confirms the death of the Uboot crew the worst of all scenarios was confirmed this morning at the meeting of the crew members of the Argentine Navy, which the sad Notice of the death of the 44-member crew of the Ubootes "Ara San Juan" announced.
On the presumed position of the "Ara San Juan", there should have been an explosion immediately after the last radio link ten days ago. This was agreed by sea probes of the International Atomic Test Stop Authority CTBTO and the USA, said a spokesman of the Argentine Navy yesterday in Buenos Aires.
Latest information suggests that an explosion has led to the destruction of the submarine. Experts suggested that the submarine could be too deep and broken or a short circuit of the batteries.
The search for the Uboot is to be continued with international participation until finally clarity about the fate of the "Ara San Juan" reigns.

The "Ara San Juan", built in Germany, disappeared on Wednesday last week on the journey from Ushuaia to the southern tip of Argentina to Mar del Plata. The Uboot had reported a battery damage and announced to return to the base. Then the contact broke off. Source: Marina Argentina The German Navy blog mourns for the Argentine comrades who are thinking of the relatives.

#RIP May the souls of our brethren find their peace

Source
https://www.facebook.com/deutschemar...70613049899338

[Gerald]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-42115406

[ACR]

Originally Posted by speed150mph

Jive turkey, one of the guys I'm subscribed to on YouTube, is a retired us navy sonar tech.

He just released this video of him analyzing the sonar graphs of the event that occurred after last contact. He seems to believe that some type of explosion or hull failure occurred, followed a minute later by a full emergancy blow, and possibly the sound of it settling on the bottom.

Link to video

thank you very much for the link, i looked at it and learned some details .

however , out of speculation of course , i have another scenario what the three sounds are .

i think they had a battery failure / fire but inutially surfaced and were able to report it ( last contact and irders to return to base ). they fought with a blackout and the need to ventilate the boat , secure the batteries - in very bad weather and high seas. they might in this conditions start to take water (maybe no pumps due to electric problems but need to ventilate the battery fumes) and after about three hours (time between last contact and the recorded sounds ) the boat lost boyancy and started to go down but with an still intact hull and still some air inside . after reaching crush depth the first and most violent sound is the implosion of the hull followed by silence for 80 seconds until the second less noisier sound . thats when the crushed hull hits the bottom and settles down ( and not the sound of sn emergency blow ) . the third , vanishing sound is the settling of the last parts of debris on the bottom and then silence again .

the estimated crush depth is due to my estimate about 450 meters , the sinking of the crushed hull ? - no idea - 10 m/second ? if the hull crushed at 450 meters and further travelled for 80 seconds with 10 m/s the wreckage is at about 1250 meters water depth . that would mean they are at a deep spot an the edge of the continental shelf .

i hope i,m wrong and pray for a miracle and the sailors return !

best regards

[Mr Quatro]

Who's hearing or receiving all of these sounds? Sosus closed down years ago and was a couple of thousand miles from there. As far as I know you can only hear perhaps 75 miles away on another sensor platform like a submarine.

SOSUS. The acronym for Sound Surveillance Under the Sea, SOSUS was a ... Closed down at the end of the Cold War, SOSUS terminals have been either ...

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by Mr Quatro

Who's hearing or receiving all of these sounds? Sosus closed down years ago and was a couple of thousand miles from there. As far as I know you can only hear perhaps 75 miles away on another sensor platform like a submarine.

The "Comprehensive Nuclear Test ban Treaty Organization" was established and provided with the IMS (International Monitoring System and Communications Infrastructure) some of which is still being constructed.

the system consists of:

Seismic Monitors

Hydro-Acoustic Stations

Acoustic Pressure Sensors

Radionuclide Stations which detect radioactive material in the air

the purpose of this equipment is to listen, watch, and feel for signs of nuclear explosions in violation of the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty.

In this case, the organization's Hydro-Acoustic Stations in the South Atlantic registered the loud explosions on sonar approximately 3 hours after the last communication with the San Juan.

as im sure you could imagine, it takes some time to pour through the data, listen to the sounds, sample the air etc

in this case, the CBTBO noted that the sound may correlate to the search to the San Juan and made their data available to the appropriate authorities.

EDIT: in short, the notation of the sound was more or less just stumbled upon - they were not "listening for subs"

[speed150mph]

ACR

Interesting theory, but it has holes.

Firstly that is the sonar data from the nuclear test ban orginaization who had access to the original audio. They classified it as an explosion, not an implosion. The sound of a collapsing hull is a very distinct sound, and I'd hope that a group listening for nuclear blasts would know an explosion.

Second is that as someone showed in a technical breakdown of the TR1700, it does have some watertight bulkheads. With a hull collapse, you would hear the bulkhead collapse in succession, not just a single event.

Thirdly, if they were on the surface taking on water slowly and not able to pump it out, they would have had time to deploy the emergancy rescue beacon and evacuate the crew.

Forth, I'm by no means a capable seaman or fit to be a sub captain, but if I was in a submarine with battery issues that threatened propulsion; at this point is somewhat unclear what issue was with the battery other then it was reported as a routine issue, but being in a storm like they were, and thinking that I was not in immediate danger of sinking and knowing that if had oxygen for days, I would be hesitant to surface a small submarine like that and risk losing propulsion and not being able to control my sub in the waves.

[Aktungbby]

Etiane! Does any one know the type of torpedo carried on board the two TR1700 class Argentinian submarines. The sistership: On 15 June 2014, Santa Cruz ran aground in an accident near Buenos Aires exposing its rotted out hull. She was being towed to Tandanor shipyard for maintenance, and was unlocked without damage.
On September 2016, Santa Cruz started a renovation and life extension program at the Tandanor shipyard in Buenos Aires, Argentina. The work will include changing all 960 batteries, periscope and snorkel maintenance, revision of engines, and overall system upgrades. She had had the same midlife refit as Ara San Juan ca. 1999-2001.... My first guess(explosion??) would be a Kursk type outdated ordinance failure; but I can find no info on torpedo type/propulsion system ordinance failure.

San Juan like her sister arrived too late for the Falklands War in 1982. In fact, the construction program hindered the war effort by sending the most experienced Argentine submariners to Europe to assist the TR-1700’s development.

The inexperienced crews of the World War II-era submarines ARA San Luis and ARA Santa Fe fought in the war. However, the British sank Santa Fe at South Georgia. San Luis tried in vain to sink British warships but was unsuccessful due to crew mishaps and technical problems with her wire-guided torpedoes. “These factors point to a ship [San Luis] that was operationally unready to fight a war,” U.S. Navy Lt. Cmdr. Clinton Cragg wrote in a 1991 report for the Naval War College.
San Juan entered service in November 1985. Cragg went on to describe the TR-1700 as “impressive,” noting its 12,000-nautical-mile range and 890-foot maximum depth as representing a “formidable ocean going threat.” During the mid-1980s, U.S. government literature referred to the TR-1700 as the most advanced non-nuclear submarine anywhere in the world.
The San Jorge Gulf off Argentina’s eastern gulf, near San Juan’s last known location, is shallower than her maximum operating depth.
“Numerous overt (and possibly) covert attempts were made to gather intelligence on this generation submarine while it was on sea trials and in transit to Argentina,” Cragg noted.
The sinking of the cruiser ARA General Belgrano during the war by the British submarine HMS Conqueror was another wake-up call for the Argentine navy. Massive inflation — already a problem before the conflict — continued, and anti-military sentiment after the defeat in the Falklands helped pummel the defense budget.
The TR-1700 program was a rare survivor of this contraction, a testament to the importance of submarines in Argentina’s doctrine at the time, although four more planned TR-1700s were scrapped during construction.
“The submarine, viewed as a luxury item in the seventies, was now considered as an essential element in Argentina’s security,” Cragg added. “The submarine came to be viewed as a cost effective avenue to carry out the mission of the state.”
Argentina has continued investing resources in its submarine fleet — retrofitting San Juan from 2008 to 2013 — as its surface fleet declined and experienced several serious incidents and mishaps.

...and we think our own collision-prone Navy is bad.... A leading cause of deaths in any navy appears to be budget constraints.

[Red_88]

Originally Posted by Aktungbby

My first guess(explosion??) would be a Kursk type outdated ordinance failure; but I can find no info on torpedo type/propulsion system ordinance failure.

Well the kursk had these 65cm torpedos onboard which have hydrogen peroxide propulsion. I read somewhere it was one of these blowing up. Except the russians there are the swedes who have torpedos with hyrdogen peroxide propulsion.

My guess the Argentine navy use either german torpedos (theiy are all electric) or maybe the american NT-37 (OTTO II Fuel like in the mk-48)

[Dowly]

Oberon asked me to pass this link here. It is a fundraiser for the families of the submarine's crew.

https://www.generosity.com/emergenci...relief-fund--2