[REL] Ralles RealModSoup for TMO_RSRDC_OTC

[james_nix]

I have a problem where my sonar guy hears a ship, but I can't. Since I play with no contacts it makes it impossible to play.

I wonder if it just to game bug, not the mod bug, where a merchant ship sometimes cannot be heard?

[propbeanie]

Stock game issue most likely. For some reason, they decided that a ship traveling less than half of its maximum rated speed would be invisibly silent to the player... I don't know if that's to encourage them to use their assigned sonar "man", or what... so if you've got a DD rated at 37 knots top speed, and it does anything less than 18.5 knots, it becomes "invisible" to your ears. Of course, the average convoy travels at about 9 knots, so... If a vessel has a rated top speed of 15 knots, and they're doing 9 knots, you can hear them. They slow down to 7 knots while turning though, and they'll "disappear" to you... CapnScurvy has been experimenting endlessly with this, and hasn't found an acceptable way around the issue, other than speeding everybody up...

[CapnScurvy]

The lack of "hearing" a ship by the player using passive sonar (hydrophone), yet your Sonarman usually can, is a stock game bug. It's enhanced even more by modding ships to do authentic behavior as both TMO and RSRDC try to do.

If you compare the stock game campaign files to either TMO's or RSRDC you'll find why the modded game preforms worse than its stock counterpart.

As propbeanie points out, the game makes a distinction between what a ships MaxSpeed= figure is (found in its .sim file), compared to its Speed= figure found in its traveling speed between waypoints of the Campaign files. If the ship is set to travel less than half its Maxspeed= figure....you'll not hear it.

In most, if not all stock game campaign ship waypoints, the convoy ships travel at 9 knots or more. Most freighters have a MaxSpeed of less than 18 knots. So, a 9 knot travel speed is either equal to, or greater than, half of an 18 knot MaxSpeed....you'll hear it just fine. Their assigned escorts to those convoys will follow the same speed as the ships their protecting, so the game seems to ignore this speed rule for the escorts when their assigned to slower freighters.

In TMO or RSRDC the Campaign ships travel at all sorts of speeds between waypoints. When they travel less than half their MaxSpeed figure.....you're as deaf as a post to hearing them with passive sonar. That's why this "bug" becomes more prominent with a modded game. It's like the developers knew this shortcoming, and just made sure you didn't notice it by keeping the freighters traveling above half their MaxSpeed figure.

I have a plan to correct this behavioral bug, without increasing the ships traveling speed, but its no small task. Campaign files and ship .sim files will need to work in "sync" with each other to eliminate this bug. Fotrs Ultimate having their huge inventory of ships will be the perfect place to correct this behavior of having deaf hydrophone operation. Much like the elimination of hearing the constant "Yes sir", "Yes sir"...... response heard in the stock game, my correction will have little fan fare outside of simply making the equipment work as expected.

[LCQ_SH]

Hi Capn.

Could I please have your input of my previous comment before James_nix's??

It will be really appreciated

[propbeanie]

Originally Posted by LCQ_SH

Thanks!! I'll try it out!
...
Like no more than 100km away from land, throughout all Jap coast. I could day cruise everyday and....isn't that suppose to be weird?


To test that, I changed area, this time I went to the Solomons area and the only thing that appears are sea planes unnarmed!! If I don0t submerge, a lot will come in but completley unarmed and even like that, they dare to attack with slingshots maybe?

I'm used to TMO_RSRD without OTC (years ago), but with the OTC mod, planes and sometimes escorts behave in an unusual way (at least to me). As again, planes with not even a single bomb or 20kg rock to throw?

Originally Posted by LCQ_SH

Another example, in the Solomons area, I engaged a Fubuki DD , failed to sink and I said "damn...time to run". The DD just made two runs, 8 DC thrown max, and then just circled around like if it would have ran out. I even try to test him at periscope depth ahead flank. He knew where I was but no trying to kill me o.O

Do you mean these? The OTC would have nothing to do with airplane or any ship AI behavior, or equipment load-out. It almost sounds like you've got a bad case of "mod soup", but not the slow roasted, flavorful kind that Bleiente mixed up for us all. I'd try first to de-activate all mods, and then clean out the SH4 Save folder in My Documents. You will lose all campaign files though, so do it when you're finished with a career. When you start the stock game back up, you'll have to re-set your audio and video the way you want them. Exit the game again, and activate the Bleiente Ralles Mod Soup. Be sure to include his "hot fix". Try the game again. Since his version is based on TMO / RSRDC, there should be little difference in the plane or DD behavior. If anything, they are more perniciously persistent... ("wow" say the college grads). If nothing else, Bleiente will be along and comment about his AI mix...

[LCQ_SH]

Originally Posted by propbeanie

Do you mean these? The OTC would have nothing to do with airplane or any ship AI behavior, or equipment load-out. It almost sounds like you've got a bad case of "mod soup", but not the slow roasted, flavorful kind that Bleiente mixed up for us all. I'd try first to de-activate all mods, and then clean out the SH4 Save folder in My Documents. You will lose all campaign files though, so do it when you're finished with a career. When you start the stock game back up, you'll have to re-set your audio and video the way you want them. Exit the game again, and activate the Bleiente Ralles Mod Soup. Be sure to include his "hot fix". Try the game again. Since his version is based on TMO / RSRDC, there should be little difference in the plane or DD behavior. If anything, they are more perniciously persistent... ("wow" say the college grads). If nothing else, Bleiente will be along and comment about his AI mix...

If I well remember, OTC does modify air traffic and loadouts as described in the "readme"

About that, my last Bleiente mod pack installation was from a complete SH4 restored installation files using the SH4CMS. After setting up video and audio. Then as you mentioned it, activated Beleinte's pack with the corresponding OTC patch. So I was just trying to confirm if what I'm seeing (at least with the aircraft) is somehow normal

[propbeanie]

From what I remember, he (CapnScurvy) changes the frequency and the range, not the behavior, but maybe that occurs anyway? I dunno. But it is now part of Ralles RealModSoup anyway, and as such would be considered "altered" by Bleiente, so see what he has to say when he stops by.

Sorry - I had no time to answer so far.

Originally Posted by LCQ_SH

Like no more than 100km away from land, throughout all Jap coast. I could day cruise everyday and....isn't that suppose to be weird?


To test that, I changed area, this time I went to the Solomons area and the only thing that appears are sea planes unnarmed!! If I don0t submerge, a lot will come in but completley unarmed and even like that, they dare to attack with slingshots maybe?

I'm used to TMO_RSRD without OTC (years ago), but with the OTC mod, planes and sometimes escorts behave in an unusual way (at least to me). As again, planes with not even a single bomb or 20kg rock to throw?

I have not changed anything about the characteristics and equipment of the aircraft.
I just gave them better "eyes"...

Originally Posted by Bleiente

Try this adjustment, maybe you like it better:
https://workupload.com/file/39dQ7S2

As a test - how do the aircraft work in the submarine school during artillery training?
Do they work correctly there...?

Originally Posted by LCQ_SH

Another example, in the Solomons area, I engaged a Fubuki DD , failed to sink and I said "damn...time to run". The DD just made two runs, 8 DC thrown max, and then just circled around like if it would have ran out. I even try to test him at periscope depth ahead flank. He knew where I was but no trying to kill me o.O

It might be possible that the Fubuki had no more water bombs.
As I explained elsewhere, the 1st class destroyers of the IJN were only rudimentarily equipped for ASW.
Until mid-1943 they had only 18 water bombs on board.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fubuki-class_destroyer
The only exception are the Akizuki-class as a multipurpose destroyer.

There seems to be a problem with you.
With the adapted, above-mentioned config, he would have been able to attack you on periscope depth also otherwise...

[LCQ_SH]

Originally Posted by Bleiente

I have not changed anything about the characteristics and equipment of the aircraft.
I just gave them better "eyes"... :

I can see that now. It is not your modpack but the OTC aircraft settings. I installed manually TMO, RSRD and OTC the way they should work properly together. I started a career mission 1944, went to the Japan coastlines and air traffic was not present at all for few days during daytime!

I went close to Manila and Formosa, no farther than 150 km from land, and the only thing I saw, were these "seaplanes" (again) completely unarmed and still they were "attacking" me, . I have seen these with your modpack and with the individual mods now. Therefore it is an OTC thing.

Originally Posted by Bleiente

There seems to be a problem with you.
With the adapted, above-mentioned config, he would have been able to attack you on periscope depth also otherwise...

This is not all, escorts skills are completely below n00b level, seriously. In my "scouting for planes" patrol, I encountered a minekazi DD, I was close enough for him to see me so he shot me. I got hit and then went to radar depth at flank speed. The think just approached a couple of more Kms, and then turned around to the opposite direction "looking for me". Really? He didn't even get to the spot I went underwater. It was a perfect day for him, clear skies, no wind. Maybe the skipper was lazy, wth? the sonar guy was in the head?

Another example when I was close to Formosa strait, I was close to a convoy with, uhm, type b class escort I think, they spotted me at night, got fired, got their search light on me, and again, went down to radar depth at flank, they turned around looking for something on the opposite site


The next thing I tried, was fully install Traveller's mod and this "corrected" air trafic (by that I mean, planes will spot you if you are close to land, and they are armed!!, bombs, DC and torps) and DDs are "blood thirsty" now although Traveller's mod has couple of things that forbids me to adopt it with TMO RSRD and OTC

I really like OTC, but it is simply just way too easy to play. Every single time I have tested mods configuration, they were activated on a fresh copy made by SH4CMS.

I would really like being able to use your modpack, but is there a way I could get back the original TMO/RSRD air traffic and escorts skills and "blood thirstiness"?

Mod list for this using a fresh install

Generic Mod Enabler - v2.6.0.157
[C:\Ubisoft\SH4TMO\MODS]

1_TriggerMaru_Overhaul_2-5
RSRDC_TMO_V502
RSRDC_V5xx_Patch1
1.5_Optical Targeting Correction 031312 for RSRDCv502
1.5_OTC_Realistic Scopes for 16 to 9 RSRDCv502
1.5_OTC_Metric Tools
1.5_OTC_Tokko's Revenge for RSRDCv502

[CapnScurvy]

Bleiente, you have my permission to make the game as hard as you can for LCQ_SH!!

[LCQ_SH]

Originally Posted by CapnScurvy

Bleiente, you have my permission to make the game as hard as you can for LCQ_SH!!

CapnScurvy,

Don't get me wrong. I am still not sure if I'm doing something wrong because it is really strange to me that I only encounter unarmed float-planes along and escorts behave like if they wouldn't care if I sink all of the IJN. I have been trying to start a career these past weeks without being successful because of these strange things.

Never meant to criticize your work which I actually like a lot.

It would be nice, if other users could report here, if they have similar or even same problems ... before I begin with an elaborate error search.

@LCQ_SH
Did you try that again...

Originally Posted by Bleiente

As a test - how do the aircraft work in the submarine school during artillery training?
Do they work correctly there...?

and what has come of it?

I had no problems with the escorts myself. They did exactly what I had imagined in the framework of the engine.
Only the lack of water bombs on 1st class destroyer was noticeable, which is so correct as ... as I had already described and explained.

Well ... then I will have to go out today and have a look what's going on.
Since I can test the ModPack adapted ship compilation of Bubblehead ...
Great God - for that I must also adapt the ship's physics.

[CapnScurvy]

A couple of things LCQ_SH.

I don't think of criticism as being wrong or bad. I actually like it....... to hear other points of view!! So, don't apologize for what you're encountering.

It's entirely possible some of the planes that OTC introduces do not have the capabilities you desire. It's my fault to not know what I know now...... to put armaments on all AI planes and make their detection levels where they should. I've not opened up OTC in quite some time, the last time was 2012. There are probably planes that don't have the proper capabilities.....it's my fault to not update them if that's the issue.

One thing you have to remember, the level of detection/aggressive counter attack behavior of TMO/RSRDC is not exactly authentic. As a matter of fact, Ducimus states so in his introduction of Trigger Maru Overhauled. His idea was to make the game harder beyond reality, to heighten game play...that's fine, just don't expect all of us to follow that idea.

Authentic reality is the fact the Japanese were not as progressive as its German counterpart in its electronic capabilities. They didn't have the desire to update their ASW beyond hydrophone use or visual capabilities. Radar was hardly employed beyond the largest warships. So, comparing what's expected of the games AI within SHIII or SH5 to how SH4 is intended should be considered a stretch in reality.

Nor was their desire to even protect their supply routes/supply convoys with escorts! For the most part, the idea of protecting their merchant fleet was non existent. Here's how it worked. The "Empire" was controlled within regional sections by individual commanders....most of them were Army Generals that wouldn't be bothered with committing escorts to the lowly merchant fleet as they passed through their region of control. Even the escort/destroyer fleet was considered inferior to the larger cruiser/battleship group within the Japanese Navy, giving them the lowest consideration for equipment upgrades or personnel. Someone has to graduate last from Navy School....they were assigned to the escort fleet or merchant marine service. Make no mistake, finding escorts, following large merchant convoys, was a reality in the Atlantic....not in the Pacific from the Japanese side.

[LCQ_SH]

Originally Posted by Bleiente

@LCQ_SH
Did you try that again...

and what has come of it?

Well ... then I will have to go out today and have a look what's going on.
Since I can test the ModPack adapted ship compilation of Bubblehead ...
Great God - for that I must also adapt the ship's physics.

Well what is normal? There only a couple of Mavis with bombs and a bunch of B5N2 unarmed. I have never done the artillery training so I can't tell if they behave normally or not. (BTW, the Mavis they all missed)

Originally Posted by CapnScurvy

A couple of things LCQ_SH.

I don't think of criticism as being wrong or bad. I actually like it....... to hear other points of view!! So, don't apologize for what you're encountering.

It's entirely possible some of the planes that OTC introduces do not have the capabilities you desire.

One thing you have to remember, the level of detection/aggressive counter attack behavior of TMO/RSRDC is not exactly authentic. As a matter of fact, Ducimus states so in his introduction of Trigger Maru Overhauled. His idea was to make the game harder beyond reality, to heighten game play...that's fine, just don't expect all of us to follow that idea.

I wouldn't use those words precisely "desire". I learned to play this game with TMO's difficulty which I find it okay, otherwise the game becomes so easy and unreal in terms of tonnage and how easy is to raid Japan coastal waters which I don't truly believe it was so easy. It is well known that at some points during the war, fleet boats would need to travel submerged during the day and recharge batteries overnight because of the great danger being spotted by an aircraft could represent

Don't get me wrong, I agree in that TMOs air traffic is excessive, but when I read your "read me" file, saying "airplanes are still dangerous if you are just fooling around" and then to be able to patrol the entire Japanese coast without having the need to dive once or just to encounter those unarmed floatplanes, which leads to easy killing, the routine of sinking merchants with no danger, it would be impossible to finish a career without getting bored.


What I wanted to ask you is if it would be possible as an easy fix, to just delete some files from your mod just to be able to keep AI TMO/RSRD awareness of a sub presence (maybe? I have no idea about modding except diving into easy modifiable files), and which would those files be in case it is possible?

[propbeanie]

Another thing to remember about that Nakajima A6M2-N float plane is that it is basically "Zero" or "Zeke", and might be capable of carrying one little 125 bomb, if there wasn't a "float" in the way... otherwise, machine guns only. They were used as a "scout" plane, and would radio in your position, calling any local-based patrol craft to your locatioin - if they have working radio... You can turn-up the frequency and doggedness of the air AI if you want, and even change the aircrafts' load-outs to "un-realistic" levels, if so desired.