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Old 01-24-2018, 01:47 PM   #46
ikalugin
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Remember how in 1983 K-324 got tangled in TASS cable in Sargasso sea?
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Old 01-25-2018, 02:06 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by ikalugin View Post
Remember how in 1983 K-324 got tangled in TASS cable in Sargasso sea?
I remember that it was screwed (or de-screwed if ya think about it. ) when it got tangled up.
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Old 01-27-2018, 12:33 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by ikalugin View Post
Ahh, so it was an appeal to authority.

p.s. it is amusing to see how one who uses "silent" in the "silent service" as cover for his apparent appeals to authority decides that the oponent has no in-depth knowledge of subject when confronted (on the matter of said fallacious argument) or when the oponent does not comment on him having or not having clearance.

case closed indeed.
You are trolling with disinformation, conjecture, and innuendo masquerading as profound insight.

As previously stated, those of us with knowledge of the subject, (ASW operations and capabilities) won't be discussing classified information. Without a clearance and ASW experience, one might know 2% on the subject. Effective ASW is as much an art as it is a science, and there's a lot of formal training required to mastering them.

Of one thing you may be assured, (from those of us with in-depth experience and knowledge of the subject) is that within the timeframe of this game, the US Navy submarine force sailed with impunity and while respectful of Soviet submarines, was not intimidated one iota by them.

TRAINING GENERATES CONFIDENCE / EXPERIENCE DELIVERS EXPERTISE

In the submarine community, those of us in the sonar rating were superbly trained, attending various schools for up to two years, (The Q-5 maintenance course was nine months long alone) prior to ever setting foot onboard a boat, which is where the real training begins.

In contrast, most US college students spend four years attending classes for a few hours a week. We spent forty hours a week in a formal setting, not including night study with a teaching assistant to help us out. During inport periods, additional training courses were scheduled, including sonar and attack team trainers followed by countless drills and exercises at sea preparing for the next deployment. If you aren't doing the real thing, then you're training, anytime you're at sea.

All prospective sonar supervisors with at least a year of sea time were required to complete a seven-week Submarine Sonar Subjective Analysis, (SSSA, or as we called it, "Triple-S A") acoustic intelligence course. We filled out a two-hundred page workbook of mostly Russian-oriented intelligence information from lectures and then committed it to memory for the final. During the practical portion of the final, each student was presented with a recording of a vessel recorded by an SSN from a SPECOP and we used all of the same equipment onboard the ship to analyze the acoustic data, interpret the results, and render a classification with other acoustic cues to back up our decision. The written portion of the test was four hours long. Anyone who completed this would agree it was a very tough course.

It was never our goal to just prevail in the water column, but to dominate, and there's a big difference between those two words. Whether you take my word for it or not is irrelevant; history will bear this out. Maybe you are confusing authority with truth, I cannot tell, but truth eventually wins.

The only thing you have conclusively proven with your posts thus far is your incomplete knowledge of the subject matter since you have ZERO experience other than what you read in open source publications, which is often wildly inaccurate, and woefully incomplete due to the classified nature of the subject. Amateurs who pretend to know what they're talking about regarding naval operations are called "armchair admirals" for a reason. Your continuing posts defending your untenable position only serve to confirm this assessment.

"Opponent"? This isn't even a fight (or an argument.) You're just wasting server bandwidth, trying to pretend you're knowledgeable about something you're not. You aren't qualified, (in more ways than one) to debate anything regarding the subject of 1980's-era ASW with any degree of authority.

The game as coded is a very good representation of the capabilities involved at the time using the information available now. As such, those of us who have "been there, done that" enjoy playing it, which is the highest tribute a developer can receive. But just like owning a gun and playing SOCOM doesn't make one an authority of SEAL tactics, neither does playing Cold Waters, (or any other publicly-released submarine simulation) and reading open source literature make one an authority on submarine operations. You would do well to remember that.

But in the interests of free speech, you may pretend to know what you're talking about as much as you want. . . Knock yourself out; it still doesn't change a thing. By continuing to make wild claims with insufficient proof, you only continue to embarrass yourself, "admiral"

As for real tactical employment methodology, those details have not been released. And truth IS stranger than fiction.

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Old 01-28-2018, 09:32 AM   #49
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Quote:
You are trolling with disinformation, conjecture, and innuendo masquerading as profound insight.
Ahh, so a shift to Ad-hominem.

p.s. I think one of the issues here is in fact your experience (which we did not verify, but lets assume that it indeed exists), because cold war era intel (as for example the 1972 vintage CIA reported posted here shows) was rather, ehem, imperfect, especially compared to post cold war era Russian accounts, which became availiable because people in question were no longer bound by their oaths (USSR is no more) or scared of prosecution by successor states - such as Russia (ie if they lived in Ukraine or Baltics).
This problem is illustrated by your apparent lack of knowledge on the critically important events - such as Aport and Atrina and the lack of rocognition of the name of the event that you probably do know - operation Kama, events that are covered by open sources today, yet not covered (or appear so) by your proprietary knowledge.

That bias and your appeal to your perceived authority make your arguments toxic and counter productive.

As to myself - I am more of the industrial side person, so armchair industrialist would be a better description I guess?
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Old 01-29-2018, 05:03 AM   #50
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Can we all keep this debate at an acceptable level please, without resorting to name calling and insults.
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Old 02-03-2018, 04:26 AM   #51
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Ok Ladies and Gentlemen keep it down Just my 2 cents coming in here.

Operation Atrina information which was gathered by the United States was declassified by the USN in 2005 and is available for public viewing.
Operation Atrina information in Russia today was declassified around the same time 2004/5.

Now we all know that the United states and the UK well generally the west has better technology when it comes to computers we don't really need to make a comparison of this it is well known.

I think a lot of the west does have a superiority complex when it comes to east v west topic, and i am talking as someone who is from the west and spent a lot of time in the east also.

Atrina had two main goals, "the first goal of atrina was to find new routes into the Atlantic ocean, as we knew that the British and Americans could predict where we were headed using the traditional routes"

"The second goal was to study the anti submarine techniques and deployments of western forces trying to find us"
(Quoted from Captain of K524 Sergey Kourov)

Out of the five captains that took part i know of two; Captain Victor Alikov who is nicknamed the prince of darkness, and Captain Surgey Kourov both took part in Atrina.

During this mission it is noted and confirmed offically both by the United States and the Soviet Union that ASW forces were increased considerably during this time.

It is a confirmed fact that the United States deployed 6 Los Angeles types in order to bolster their forces in the Atlantic this is confirmed by the USN, it is also known that 3 hydro-graphic ships of the Stalwart type were also deployed in ASW activity against the 5 submarines, it is also a fact that more ASW aircraft from land based establishments on the east coast and the islands were also deployed in greater than usual numbers.

The United Kingdom also pitched in with its forces the Light carrier HMS Invincible was diverted from her duties along with her escorting ships to track the soviet submarines. this is a fact which was disclosed by Rear Admiral Christopher Parry in 2006 and he is a former commander of Polaris and Trident submarines for the Royal Navy.

During the operation Admiral Chernavin had authorized the use of "sound simulators" something that was to be used only in war time normally but assisted in the submarines remaining undetected for 8 days.

It is confirmed that the United States and the UK had tracked by Satellites the deployment of five victor III type submarines from their base in Zapadnya Litsa, a trailing unknown United States and British submarines that was patrolling nearby also recorded and reported increased submarine activity in the area.

The UK and European NATO allies (Excluding France as it ceased to be a member in 1966) were responsible for the GIUK (Greenland Iceland United Kingdom gap) this is where known SOSUS nets were deployed, however the Victors had already changed course and were heading away from the area.

We do know my the declassification they took an un-charted route into the Atlantic and made there way to Bermuda, before another rapid course change.

It was then the intelligence stated 6 Los Angeles class submarines had been put to sea, the captains had also observed a heavily increased anti submarine patrols by aircraft in the region, it is also known that the USN based in Rota Spain also put to sea "blocking" the Straight of Gibraltar with ASW forces but also limitedly deploying into the med (as other units from the Black sea were at the time operational in that area), they were also assisting the 6th fleet based in Naples Italy.

Rear Admiral Christopher Parry does state "it took us 8 days to find them"

According to Admiral Chernavin by the time the Western ASW forces had located the submarines the mission was already over they were returning to base.

It is known and confirmed by both the RN and USN that only 4 of the 5 boats were identified the 5th boat was that of Captain Victor Alikov.

So while the USN and RN had the upper hand in technology it didn't always play to their advantages something clearly atrina exploited that, so while the USA and UK believed SOSUS was their see all and be all in fact we know now that it really wasn't and that given the leaks with in the USN al'la walker it is known and confirmed SOSUS was starting to show its age and not be able to detect the newer classes of submarines, that's a fact confirmed by DR John P Craven in 1999 he goes on to say "those who believe the USA didn't have a great intelligence network is just pure Bull"

So with all the facts laid out i have to ask this question: why would the USA and UK deploy such vast forces to find 5 submarines? if as the claim by one poster states they knew all the time where soviet submarines were.


As a side note it is known that a November class Submarine K14 trailed the USS Daniel Boone it was only detached when an attack submarine managed to Shepard it away, the submarine did use the SOKS system and K14 was the trials boat for this system, the CIA declassified in 2017 its knowledge of the SOKS system.

It is also known and confirmed the the Victor III class submarine Tracked and trailer USN submarines leaving Bangor Washington in 1985 while on deployment off the east coast the submarine is confirmed to be K314.



I have spent the best part of 15 years working with / for the British MOD from working on ships that are STUFT (Ships Taken Up From Trade)(yeah that's the best acronym the UK government has ever come up with IMHO) to Logistics which is my specialization, i have worked in many capacities.

I have been on board many types of submarines across the world including Russian American Japanese and French boats a lot of my work ends me on naval bases hence why i also make a point of at least trying to get some pictures here and there when possible.

My last goal this year is to end my job (which i love) and move full time to Canada and no i don't want another Job in the Canadian MOD either! i was thinking more Walmart
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Old 02-03-2018, 04:55 AM   #52
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As for the original post question

Delta III and IV along with the Typhoons do not need to forwardly deploy into the Atlantic they are fully capable of launching missiles from home port the the United States.

These types stay in home waters protected by ASW forces its called the Bastion concept.

By 1984 with the SALT talks most of the elderly SSBN's such as the Hotels and Yankees were converted into Special projects submarines Radar Pickets or just had their silo's filled with concrete and used as attack submarines or became SSGN's or even test platforms. as we know 1 was lost K219 after a incident with a missile.

Given that the Yankee's main missile had short range it did mean they had to deploy forward into the Atlantic this also meant they would be sacrificed in war as the Russians did know they would take heavy losses should war break out.
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