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Old 04-09-07, 11:03 AM   #766
Gorshkov
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon Labe
Sounds to me that the updates to the AI evasion doctrines are working well. They're actually using the decoys effectively, almost as well as a human player would.

Of course, defeating the decoy is as simple as having a good initial solution and determining his evasion course post-launch. If you know this, you know where he is, where he's going, and where his decoys are. But if you just expect your torps sensor to handle the task for you, then you will likely be dissapointed.
No, you are wrong, buddy!
Your hypothesis could be enough explanation for me but only during playing the game at realistic sensor settings. Unfortunately post-mission briefing in "Show True" mode showed me exactly what had really happened. At least in four cases my torpedoes were at direct collision course with enemy sub within less than one nautical mile range but they missed target being ugly cheated by active decoy set by Foxtrot in the last moment before expected impact.

So it must be some error in decoy-sensor unbalanced settings and nothing else...
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Old 04-09-07, 11:06 AM   #767
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorshkov
So it must be some error in decoy-sensor unbalanced settings and nothing else...
I've actually changed exactly zero things related to this, so it's clearly not a mod issue.

Also, the AI would use less decoys, if you fired less torpedoes, which in theory would make it easier for any single torpedo to hit the target.

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Old 04-09-07, 11:18 AM   #768
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorshkov
Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon Labe
Sounds to me that the updates to the AI evasion doctrines are working well. They're actually using the decoys effectively, almost as well as a human player would.

Of course, defeating the decoy is as simple as having a good initial solution and determining his evasion course post-launch. If you know this, you know where he is, where he's going, and where his decoys are. But if you just expect your torps sensor to handle the task for you, then you will likely be dissapointed.
No, you are wrong, buddy!
Your hypothesis could be enough explanation for me but only during playing the game at realistic sensor settings. Unfortunately post-mission briefing in "Show True" mode showed me exactly what had really happened. At least in four cases my torpedoes were at direct collision course with enemy sub within less than one nautical mile range but they missed target being ugly cheated by active decoy set by Foxtrot in the last moment before expected impact.

So it must be some error in decoy-sensor unbalanced settings and nothing else...
That's not an error, and it's not a cheat. That's the Foxtrot firing the decoy at the right time to save his ass. In that case, yes, there's not much to do but re-attack, but the Foxtrot earned it. It will be rare for either a player or an AI to get the timing right enough to pull that off though, especially when you consider that the LW/Ami torp is going to start searching again immediately on the other side, as opposed to a stock torp which will either explode on the decoy, go "dumb" after burning through, or will take over 1000yds to start searching again.
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Old 04-09-07, 11:21 AM   #769
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuftWolf
Also, the AI would use less decoys, if you fired less torpedoes, which in theory would make it easier for any single torpedo to hit the target.
Well, I didn't fire any salvo in mentioned here mission but only single torpedoes consecutively.
Yet this Foxtrot was deploying suspiciously big number of active decoys trying to escape only one torpedo...:hmm:
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Old 04-09-07, 11:34 AM   #770
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Well, small explanation why I mentioned about US and Russian torpedoes differences at all.

I also played a few similar AI controlled Foxtrot/206A (I intentionally selected rather noisy junk) versus my SSN21/668I missions with LWAMI mod and I didn't have any troubles with achieving kills using ADCAPs despite opposite subs also used decoys very often.
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Old 04-09-07, 12:52 PM   #771
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorshkov
Well, small explanation why I mentioned about US and Russian torpedoes differences at all.

I also played a few similar AI controlled Foxtrot/206A (I intentionally selected rather noisy junk) versus my SSN21/668I missions with LWAMI mod and I didn't have any troubles with achieving kills using ADCAPs despite opposite subs also used decoys very often.
5 knots of extra closure speed means a lot in a tail chase. The UGST spends more time being exposed to possible spoofing.

Edit: 5 knots also means a lot more potential re-attacks before the target outruns the weapon.
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Old 04-09-07, 03:44 PM   #772
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I can't understand this completely at this moment! :rotfl:

I tried to play my "Foxtrot-hunt" mission with LWAMI mod once again. This time Foxtrot's AI skipper proved to be stupid idiot! I fired SS-N-27 ASW at him but unfortunately MTP-1UE torpedo fell into water too far from enemy sub and thus it couldn't detect Foxtrot. Foxtrot's skipper had deployed three active decoys as usual but later he accelerated to 15 knots and changed course...directly toward my still searching him torpedo. In a while later MPT-1UE managed to detect and sink silly Foxtrot!

Well, maybe enemy AI possesses some random behavior: it can be very clever but some other time it is completely stupid???

PS. Do you know any proved informations about real speed-range-depth characteristics of new German DM-2A4 "Seehake" torpedo? I have found some strange data about it as 90 km range at 50 kts for example but it looks rather comic taking into account that DM-2A4 is an electrically powered fish, doesn't it?

Last edited by Gorshkov; 04-09-07 at 03:58 PM.
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Old 04-09-07, 04:18 PM   #773
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How many did you shoot, and if more than one, where did the others land?
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Old 04-09-07, 04:30 PM   #774
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When is the next version of the mod due out?
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Old 04-09-07, 04:35 PM   #775
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G-

My data about the 2A4 appears to give it considerable ability for an electric torpedo. It is certainly the most capable electric torpedo ever built, and it is also a swimout launched torpedo, which makes it rather stealthy.

I wouldn't put anything past the Germans at this point, the 212/4 are wonderful designs.

Cheers,
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Old 04-09-07, 04:38 PM   #776
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Linton
When is the next version of the mod due out?
Approximately two months from the day I start working on it... which hasn't happened yet for various reasons, most of them personal on my end.

I have put enough work into things that no one has yet seen (or at least very few people) that I will at some point resume work, but it is both time-intensive and consuming work that has to be done in large blocks, so I have to pick a good time to begin working.

I already have the fundamental technologies finished, they just need to be battle-tested and then implimented into a playable version of a DW mod, which actually will be a bit difficult this time around, considering the magnitude of the changes and the fact that I'm using the doctring and interface system for things never intended in terms of weapon function, so I have to see it work each and every time I make changes, which means extensive testing by a team will be necessary.

I think I've got a nice ready pool of eager testing candidates here at SubSim thankfully.

Cheers,
David

Cheers,
David
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Old 04-09-07, 04:56 PM   #777
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon Labe
How many did you shoot, and if more than one, where did the others land?
I fired two SS-N-27 ASWs separately. First of them landed even farther than second one which behavior I described above. Both MPT-1UEs were searching target when Foxtrot's skipper committed suicide.

Another strange but interesting event:

- at 1 nm distance to target: UGST detected Foxtrot and began homing at her. Foxtrot immediately released active decoy and began to escape at 15 knots but UGST was still approaching sub.

- at 0.5 nm distance to target: Suddenly UGST selected active decoy, dropped Foxtrot homing and began to move at decoy. Shortly afterwards UGST "hit" decoy and Foxtrot escaped to safety.

Really funny! :rotfl:
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Old 04-09-07, 05:03 PM   #778
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuftWolf
My data about the 2A4 appears to give it considerable ability for an electric torpedo. It is certainly the most capable electric torpedo ever built, and it is also a swimout launched torpedo, which makes it rather stealthy.
Maybe 2A4 is good enough for its older electric counterparts but as sure as hell it can't be on a par with chemical powered torpedoes, like ADCAP!

PS. Is modified LWAMI 3.xx database included anywhere in USNII Reference? Probably not...

Last edited by Gorshkov; 04-09-07 at 05:17 PM.
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Old 04-09-07, 07:06 PM   #779
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorshkov
Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon Labe
How many did you shoot, and if more than one, where did the others land?
I fired two SS-N-27 ASWs separately. First of them landed even farther than second one which behavior I described above. Both MPT-1UEs were searching target when Foxtrot's skipper committed suicide.

Another strange but interesting event:

- at 1 nm distance to target: UGST detected Foxtrot and began homing at her. Foxtrot immediately released active decoy and began to escape at 15 knots but UGST was still approaching sub.

- at 0.5 nm distance to target: Suddenly UGST selected active decoy, dropped Foxtrot homing and began to move at decoy. Shortly afterwards UGST "hit" decoy and Foxtrot escaped to safety.

Really funny! :rotfl:
Well, yeah, this happens in DW. If you want to think it's a mod issue then fine, but there isn't anything I can do, and it happens to all torpedoes in all versions of the game.

Regarding the USNI, no, I'm only one person and I don't have my whole life to dedicate to DW, although that definately should be done when the mod information is finalized for various platforms.

The decoy-torpedo interplay never has been correct, the best I can do is set things so modern torpedoes don't home on decoys as often as older or less advanced weapons, hell, I can even break wires and make decoy detection more likely when off the wire and the sub-board processors can't communicate with the weapon... but when there are times when the weapon does detect the decoy, the same kinds of behaviors will occur.

If you want this kind of thing not to happen, you'll have to lobby SCS. If I could change it, I would, but there has never been any kind of call for it, so I haven't. In general, most people are happy that decoys work, since you can resteer your own weapons while the AI can't, making decoys much more effective for you.

In fact, against most human players I play in MP, decoys are basically useless because of their ability to resteer torpedoes.

In any case, nothing in the mod is going to change as a result of this discussion, although, as always, I appreciate the feedback.

Cheers,
David
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Old 04-09-07, 10:05 PM   #780
Molon Labe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorshkov
Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon Labe
How many did you shoot, and if more than one, where did the others land?
I fired two SS-N-27 ASWs separately. First of them landed even farther than second one which behavior I described above. Both MPT-1UEs were searching target when Foxtrot's skipper committed suicide.

Another strange but interesting event:

- at 1 nm distance to target: UGST detected Foxtrot and began homing at her. Foxtrot immediately released active decoy and began to escape at 15 knots but UGST was still approaching sub.

- at 0.5 nm distance to target: Suddenly UGST selected active decoy, dropped Foxtrot homing and began to move at decoy. Shortly afterwards UGST "hit" decoy and Foxtrot escaped to safety.

Really funny! :rotfl:
That happens in stock DW all the time.
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